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 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
What are Chapterhouse prices like?

Give them a look!

I've used their Tactical Marine shoulder pads on an Astral Claws Tactical squad and was very happy with that purchase.

Stranger83 wrote:
the fact is - and it's the only fact I've made on multiple occasions, i've never claimed anything else despite what you are saying I said, is that you get more actual models from GW for your money than you get from any other - - that is a fact and any claim that you don't.

Except you know, Mantic. And DnD minis. And Wargames Factory. And Reaper.

You have a funny way of stating fact when I've just disproven it to not be true.

You have claimed the GW is one of the cheapest: clearly, it's not. Evidence is there. Now, if that can't convince you, then clearly you are beyond help.

Stranger 83,
You simply don't know what you are talking about. Those of us who have been doing this for a while and are very familiar with models outside of GW can see clearly that you are wrong.

Stranger83 wrote:

OK, maybe "sci-fi hovering tank" wasn't the best example - as I've said I've had a long day. I was trying to say something that you can't get from a historical figure company. Maybe a better option would have been "non human humanoid models" as then I can include the Malfaiux, infinity and Warhamhordes that I've already mentioned.

Though I would say that if tanks were in these games then - based on their price structure - I would expect them to cost more than the GW ones

Really, you're going to argue based on tanks that aren't made by a company based on what you percieve the cost structure to be. Give it up.

Yes, the field of 28mm vehicles is rather small, but GW is still near the most expensive.
Here's a few more companies who make sci-fi vehicles in 28mm to compare prices to. I don't claim that they are better or worse (that's not the issue discussed) merely that they are cheaper:

Technog/Robogear
Old Crow Models
Scotia Grendel (Kryomek, Void and Generic Sci-fi lines)
Ramshackle games
Armorcast
Khurasan Miniatures
Pig Iron Productions

 heartserenade wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
the fact is - and it's the only fact I've made on multiple occasions, i've never claimed anything else despite what you are saying I said, is that you get more actual models from GW for your money than you get from any other - - that is a fact and any claim that you don't.

Except you know, Mantic. And DnD minis. And Wargames Factory. And Reaper.

You have a funny way of stating fact when I've just disproven it to not be true.

You have claimed the GW is one of the cheapest: clearly, it's not. Evidence is there. Now, if that can't convince you, then clearly you are beyond help.

Now we are going round in circles - Again, stating companies who are cheaper than GW doesn't make them the most expensive - if GW are "pricing people out of the hobby" why are we not up in arms about the more expensive ones?

OK, it clear that you can't see that were arguing different points, and I might not have made mine very well (it has been a long day) I've been arguing what I see as on thread on thread, i.e. that I don't think GW are pricing out of the hobby as other are more expensive and people still buy them.

Since it's clear that I'm not going to be able to make you see what I'm trying to say (and it may well be my fault) I'll sign off here as otherwise we'll just go round in circles (as we have started to do anyway) and I don't think we're taking the discussion further. I still stand by my point that you get more physical GW stuff for the cash than the other companies that I mentioned (because you do, despite the fact that they are often used as a "cheaper company") but my attempts to say that seems to keep getting the thread off track and into the quality and medium of the models which is not what this thread is about (as I understand it).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eilif wrote:
Stranger 83,
You simply don't know what you are talking about. Those of us who have been doing this for a while and are very familiar with models outside of GW can see clearly that you are wrong.

Stranger83 wrote:

OK, maybe "sci-fi hovering tank" wasn't the best example - as I've said I've had a long day. I was trying to say something that you can't get from a historical figure company. Maybe a better option would have been "non human humanoid models" as then I can include the Malfaiux, infinity and Warhamhordes that I've already mentioned.

Though I would say that if tanks were in these games then - based on their price structure - I would expect them to cost more than the GW ones

Really, you're going to argue based on tanks that aren't made by a company based on what you percieve the cost structure to be. Give it up.

Yes, the field of 28mm vehicles is rather small, but GW is still near the most expensive.
Here's a few more companies who make sci-fi vehicles in 28mm to compare prices to. I don't claim that they are better or worse (that's not the issue discussed) merely that they are cheaper:

Technog/Robogear
Old Crow Models
Scotia Grendel (Kryomek, Void and Generic Sci-fi lines)
Ramshackle games
Armorcast
Khurasan Miniatures
Pig Iron Productions

I'll just quickly add this

True, but Warmahordes/infinity/malifaux charge more for almost every box in their range than a similar GW model (and I don;t want to go into the quality of the model as thats not the point of the thread) so it is logical to presume they would also charge more for tanks if they made them.

By the way, i've been doing this for 20 years, and often buy from outside GW, but that doesn;t change that I get moe models for £10 from GW than I do from warmahordes.

Stranger83 wrote:

Now we are going round in circles - Again, stating companies who are cheaper than GW doesn't make them the most expensive - if GW are "pricing people out of the hobby" why are we not up in arms about the more expensive ones?

Then add all the companies Eilif just wrote. Sure, that doesn't make GW the most expensive.... but it certainly makes GW not one of the cheapest. It doesn't even come close.

We are not up in arms about the "more expensive" (notice the quotation marks: they're only more expensive by your definitions) ones because we, like normal people, take quality into consideration (as opposed to just quantity) and the number of models needed in order to play the game. Plus we know that they are, in fact, really cheaper than GW.

Still can't believe that the company that needs more miniatures to play, and with one of the most expensive plastics and metal/resin, is one of the cheapest.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

Riquende wrote:
But playing the game is part of the hobby, and you need a lot more 40K models to play the game than you do for Infinity, Malifaux, etc.

not for everyone, my friends have no interest in playing, just painting
I know quite a few like that

Playing the game is part of the hobby, regardless of whether sections of the community don't take part in it. Painting is part of the hobby, even if you've never picked up a brush. Concerns bound to those parts of the hobby may not affect someone personally but cannot be dismissed as irrelevant to all.

Stranger83 wrote:


True, but Warmahordes/infinity/malifaux charge more for almost every box in their range than a similar GW model (and I don;t want to go into the quality of the model as thats not the point of the thread) so it is logical to presume they would also charge more for tanks if they made them.

Let's do some basic logic. If we name all the games mentioned so far and divide them into "cheaper than GW" and "more expensive than GW (according to you)", then we get this:

Cheaper than GW:
Technog/Robogear
Old Crow Models
Scotia Grendel (Kryomek, Void and Generic Sci-fi lines)
Ramshackle games
Armorcast
Khurasan Miniatures
Pig Iron Productions
Mantic Games
Reaper Minis
DnD Minis

Not Cheaper than GW (according to Stranger83):
Infinity
Malifaux
Warmahordes


On that (flawed) list alone, that makes GW as "one of the cheapest" where at the least it would be in the top 4 of the most expensive minis on that list alone?

Huh.

Is there some logic to that? Is the Top 4 richest country in the world "one of the poorest"?

Now we are going round in circles - Again, stating companies who are cheaper than GW doesn't make them the most expensive - if GW are "pricing people out of the hobby" why are we not up in arms about the more expensive ones?

Which more expensive ones? The ones that require far fewer figures to play or ones that are collectors' pieces?

Warmachine and hordes when compared so specifically to GW do come off as comparable, but I think this is a case of the conversation being stretched a little far. When comparing prices for me here GW will compare as more expencive with exceptions. ( this is with an understanding of how both games work and with my relative prices, it will change in difernt places due to imports and other differences)

Some of the 10 model boxes for warmachine/hordes are more expencive than the 10 model ones for GW, but in this case it's also taking some of WM/H most expencive sets next to some of GW cheapest.

Not many custermers will look at a single product on the shelf from both and compare directly, and would be very rare to not have at least some help deciding.

This is where GW is starting to price out custermers, for WM/H you can get stuck into the game at 15 points for less than 100, GW can't do that.
The begining investment for there products rises faster then WM/H, and for price only compares if you do it model to model (if you buy character models WM/H is far cheeper, books Aswell getting to prices in the very extreme range)

It's funny how as soon as price comes up, the white knights look to muddy the water to try to make discussion meaningless.

GW is not one of the cheapest. Some of their individual products are well priced, others are horribly priced. When you start building armies for their games at retail prices with their products, the total cost can be pretty hideous and is out of line with much of the rest of the industry.

This brings us back to the OP (remember that?). Has GW's latest pricing (as exemplified by the DA and Hobbit prices) put participation in the GW hobby specifically out of reach for many people? I think it has. I think GW knows this. They know that the majority of their customers never actually play the games and most quite long before they get a full sized army built. GW front loads the start up cost with expensive starter sets, paints, codex, rulebook, etc., because they know that they likely only have a small window of time to get the most money out of people.

We're the rare ones: those who build full armies and stick with GW in any long term fashion.

The question is, at what price point do the people who GW thinks will start up, make a big purchase, maybe buy another unit or two and then quit, when do **they** stop signing up. GW will continue to massively jack up prices each year until they reach the optimum point of getting the most money out of new people before they quit. I think it's another 25-50% to go. I think we'll see GW UK prices reach parity with Forge World prices before GW is done with their annual price hike plan. And US, Canadian and Australian prices will be even higher than ForgeWorld-- in some instances they already are.

.

So anyone heard if GW is going to jack up prices this year? I suspect all terminators to go up to $60 per 5 as the DA ones are.

July is the yearly prize rise month, boxes jump by $5 usually, although the storm raven magically jumped $20.

I miss the days when $20 got you a box set of 10 (or was it 12?) Berzerkers.

@Stranger83: On a per infantry basis, PP is more expensive when you compare their metal models to GW's plastics. PP's recent repacks however have resulted in (often) signifcant price reductions.

10x Bane Thralls (metal) @ $80 ($8 ea) from 6x Bane Thralls (metal) @ $50 (8.3 ea) - 3% discount, no change in material.
10x Knights Exemplar Errant (plastic) @ $50 ($5 ea) from 6x Knights Exemplar Errant (metal) @ $50 ($8.3 ea) - 40% discount, metal to plastic
10x Winterguard w/ 3 weapon attachment (plastic) @ $50 ($3.8 ea) from 6x Winterguard (metal) @ $28 ($4.7 ea) - 20% discount, metal to plastic (-edit- the old Weapon Attachments were 9 ea, so fully prorrated, the actual discount is 32%)

There's been a lot of to-ing and fro-ing with various miniatures manufacturers here. Another way to look at it would be:

What else could I buy for the same money as say a box of tax marines?

From wayland, a box of tacs costs £18.40.

For the same price, I could spend that money on:

About 3x macdonalds.
About 5 pints in my local.
18 games of pool.
2 packs of cigarettes
About 45-55 miles of petrol in in my car.
Two albums.
A blu ray new release.
Half my monthly phone bill, or a third of my monthly tv bill.

To be honest, when I put it like that, it doesn't seem so bad to me. I can see how the price of getting started might be prohibitive, but I'll get many hours of painting out of that twenty quid, and certainly a decent sense of satisfaction putting them on the table. The only other thing in there that would give me the same sense of satisfaction would be if I had a winning streak on the pool table.

Stranger83 wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
Okay then, show me a more expensive non-human humanoid models that are in plastic that are more expensive than GW. For fairness sake, I'll name three games that produces/produced cheaper plastic figures: DnD minis, Wargames Factory and Mantic.

Again, I'll wait.

Again, the question of this thread is purely price - the medium of the model is not in question in the tread. Yes, GW are the most expensive plastics, yes they are probably the most expensive resin (since I've not seen a finecast model that is worth me looking into putting up with Finecast I've not checked) but this thread is asking about price and nothing else. I'm not sure why you seem to be strugleing to understand that.

Now if you want to start another thread about if GW charge too much for their plastics in comparison with other companies that make plastics then I will gladly join you in accepting that they do - but that is not what is being debated in this thread.

The number of times you've contradicted yourself on one page alone is hilarious. First GW are the cheapest, then you admit they are not, then they are not the most expensive, then you admit they are.

So what is it? Are they the cheapest? The most expensive? Both somehow?

You are starting to sound like a wargaming politician.

 Eggs wrote:
The only other thing in there that would give me the same sense of satisfaction would be if I had a winning streak on the pool table.

Or putting that much into a lottery or slot machine and winning?

I think Eggs has summed it up fairly well. Yeah, GW's expensive, but I don't think that they're pricing people out yet. Especially not people who are clever about it, or who have already started. Some people may be unable to suddenly afford a starter set, a codex, tons of pains, glue, paintbrushes and basing flock, but most will be able to buy a box every few weeks to slowly expand their army.

 The Shadow wrote:
I think Eggs has summed it up fairly well. Yeah, GW's expensive, but I don't think that they're pricing people out yet. Especially not people who are clever about it, or who have already started. Some people may be unable to suddenly afford a starter set, a codex, tons of pains, glue, paintbrushes and basing flock, but most will be able to buy a box every few weeks to slowly expand their army.

Or ebay, or realize that online retailers like TheWarstore are 20% cheaper.

And once again we go right back to comparing model to model without bothering to care about the context. Before we even consider costs we need to limit the discussion to complete games of equal quality, not just some conversion bits company that also happens to make a single tank model. So that means that any product line used in the comparison must include:

1) At least two complete armies, and ideally at least 3-5. IOW, Infinity has complete armies and therefore it's relevant to compare its models to GW products of similar size. That Puppets War tank is not part of a complete army, so it isn't relevant.

2) Complete rules for using the models. So, as cost-effective as Old Crow models are, they aren't a fair comparison because they're just a bunch of random tanks without any game to go with them. That's nice if you're playing a near-future game already and need more vehicles, but not very useful if you're a new player looking for a game to start. And no technicalities here, it needs to be a complete game with a non-trivial amount of players, not just a quick pdf that everyone ignores while they're using your proxy models to play 40k.

3) Detail and design quality at GW's level or better. Of course if you have an ugly kit that took 15 minutes to design it's going to be cheap. Or, to be less extreme, if you build the general shape of your model but don't spend all the time adding on the fine detail that makes it look like the real thing instead of just a block of plastic. To be a fair comparison with GW the models in question have to be at least as good, otherwise you're just demonstrating that you get what you pay for and it's possible to save money if you're willing to buy cheap garbage.

4) Reasonable production and sales volume. Obviously a random person making one kit per week in their spare time and selling it through paypal can have lower production costs than a company that has to mass produce stuff, pay for a proper website with credit card processing, distribute everything to a network of stores, etc. So, this comparison can only include models that are sold as part of a primary business, not a hobby, and should ideally be something you can buy at your FLGS.

Yup, people seem to be arguing this model or that model is more expensive or not. It has clearly been shown there are other companies that put out models at a similar price. You can argue they have X is cheaper, but Y is more. And as I stated before, the KD kickstarter showed there are a lot of people who do not have a problem dropping large amounts of money on a game. The OP dropped $649 US on it and the average pledge was $389. People have been saying that for GW to ask for that type of money is crazy, but it has been shown they are willing to spend it elsewhere. There is still plenty of appetite in the market for these prices, on an figure by figure basis and total sum.

We can gnash our teeth at GW for asking for stuff at these prices, but it is clear there are examples elsewhere of similar pricing.

 Aerethan wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
Okay then, show me a more expensive non-human humanoid models that are in plastic that are more expensive than GW. For fairness sake, I'll name three games that produces/produced cheaper plastic figures: DnD minis, Wargames Factory and Mantic.

Again, I'll wait.

Again, the question of this thread is purely price - the medium of the model is not in question in the tread. Yes, GW are the most expensive plastics, yes they are probably the most expensive resin (since I've not seen a finecast model that is worth me looking into putting up with Finecast I've not checked) but this thread is asking about price and nothing else. I'm not sure why you seem to be strugleing to understand that.

Now if you want to start another thread about if GW charge too much for their plastics in comparison with other companies that make plastics then I will gladly join you in accepting that they do - but that is not what is being debated in this thread.

The number of times you've contradicted yourself on one page alone is hilarious. First GW are the cheapest, then you admit they are not, then they are not the most expensive, then you admit they are.

So what is it? Are they the cheapest? The most expensive? Both somehow?

You are starting to sound like a wargaming politician.

OK, I've had a chance to relax and unwind a little so hopefully I can make a little more sense.

First, I've already admitted that I'd never meant to say the cheapest – and in hindsight “one of the cheapest” was still a bad choice of words, perhaps a better choice might have been “cheaper than the other “big 3” (which I believe that PP, Malifaux and Corvus Belli are in the non historic miniature world – and sometimes you just don't want to play/paint “real life” armies)

With regards to metal/resin over plastic – yes I would gladly pay more for metal and believe that is it worth more as it has more detail than plastic – which is what I want. That said however the fact that metal is better than plastic doesn't change the fact that I can get 10 marines for cheaper then I can get 10 winter guard, thus 10 marines are cheaper than 10 winter guard and for the guy who said I chose the most expensive warmahordes option I actually chose one of the cheapest “cost per miniatures” boxes I could find on dark Sphere (feel free to check if you don't believe me)

With regard to my comment of GW being the most expensive – yes they charge the most for their plastics out of everyone who does plastic – so comparing plastics to plastics GW are the most expensive – but since GW have the majoriy of their range in plastic and others have the majority of their range in metal/resin (based on what I could find for sale at Darksphere) then GW ends up costing less for their stuff – is it as good? no but it does cost less (I know this because I've just checked and it still costs less) The fact it is plastic doesn't suddenly make it cost more.

Now in fact I often avoid GW stuff, Like I mentioned I recently spent £40 on a raging heros Manticore when I could have got a GW one for £23 – why, because the quality was more important to me than the price, but I still think that, if you are new and don't know anything (and by”pricing out of the hobby” thats who I view it as as I think if you already have GW stuff then buying the odd small item wouldn't be a problem) then looking at the price of the “big 4” (again, as I understand it but I'm prepared to be wrong) then I get 10 of the GW models for cheaper than the other companies “10 man boxes”, so not knowing anything else I would presume that GW are the cheap ones, because the models themselves are cheaper, thus is any of them were going to “price me out of the hobby” it would be looking at the other companies and not GW (granted if you have someone on hand to talk you through it they may be able to explain it to you, but in that case they will probably make you buy the game they play anyway)

I don't deny that if your gaming then GW are more expensive – I also don't deny that GW has inferior mediums (Finecast is very bad and plastic can't hold the detail of metal/resin) but you do get 10 physical models for cheaper than any of the other “big 3 “companies – which is what I was trying to say just not very well.

Now if the other big 3 are releaseing plastics then fantastic, and at that point I have no doubt that GW will once again go up to being the most expensive on a model to model basis as well as a general game basis – but until such time they are not and that is all I was trying to say – just not very well unfortunately.

I hope that makes more sense than I was saying before.

The problem isn't GW charging what they do for "models", as the KD KS has shown people will pay high for models.

The problem here is GW charging what they do for what they have. That plastic terrible 1998 space marine is not worth $3.75 to me personally.

Now if CSM had a warriors box of the same quality as the DV chosen, I'd gladly pay $3.75ea.

The only reason I still buy GW models and play GW games is because of my 30% discount. 10 years ago I didn't have that discount, but then 10 years ago the game wasn't what it costs now.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
I think Eggs has summed it up fairly well. Yeah, GW's expensive, but I don't think that they're pricing people out yet. Especially not people who are clever about it, or who have already started. Some people may be unable to suddenly afford a starter set, a codex, tons of pains, glue, paintbrushes and basing flock, but most will be able to buy a box every few weeks to slowly expand their army.

Or ebay, or realize that online retailers like TheWarstore are 20% cheaper.

I don't understand how this is supposed to work for new players and/or parents of new players:

1. Play a demo game at local store.
2. DO NOT BUY FROM THE STORE THAT DEMO'ed THE GAME.
3. Go to internet for BEST DEAL
4. ???
5. SAVINGS!!!!

or.

1. Play GW liscened video game / board game.
2. Want to play 40k / fantasy.
3. Go to internet for BEST DEAL.
4. ???
5. SAVINGS!!!!

Maybe I'm old and/or stupid... Is this how it acutally works these days? Is there no reciprocation for a service rendered? Does anyone actually try-before-they-buy? There's often a step 6, which is a pet peeve of mine: oft used by internet veterans... which is to return to the store in example 1 and belittle everyone else buying from the store for not getting BEST DEAL... SAVINGS!!!!

 Aerethan wrote:
The problem isn't GW charging what they do for "models", as the KD KS has shown people will pay high for models.

The problem here is GW charging what they do for what they have. That plastic terrible 1998 space marine is not worth $3.75 to me personally.

And this sums up the problem and why people are complaining. It isn't the price per say, it is that they feel that the models GW puts out aren't worth it. I'll also mention that on other forums people are questioning the mental capacity of everyone who committed to the KD:KS, so they didn't see those figures as being worth it either.

It isn't that GW's prices are unreasonable for a figure, a lot of people feel they are unreasonable for "that" figure. Of the new DA figures, the only kit I think is close to acceptable are the terminators and that is because they are a dual kit with tons of bits. The rest are meh.

 keezus wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
I think Eggs has summed it up fairly well. Yeah, GW's expensive, but I don't think that they're pricing people out yet. Especially not people who are clever about it, or who have already started. Some people may be unable to suddenly afford a starter set, a codex, tons of pains, glue, paintbrushes and basing flock, but most will be able to buy a box every few weeks to slowly expand their army.

Or ebay, or realize that online retailers like TheWarstore are 20% cheaper.

I don't understand how this is supposed to work for new players and/or parents of new players:

1. Play a demo game at local store.
2. DO NOT BUY FROM THE STORE THAT DEMO'ed THE GAME.
3. Go to internet for BEST DEAL
4. ???
5. SAVINGS!!!!

or.

1. Play GW liscened video game / board game.
2. Want to play 40k / fantasy.
3. Go to internet for BEST DEAL.
4. ???
5. SAVINGS!!!!

Maybe I'm old and/or stupid... Is this how it acutally works these days? Is there no reciprocation for a service rendered? Does anyone actually try-before-they-buy? There's often a step 6, which is a pet peeve of mine: oft used by internet veterans... which is to return to the store in example 1 and belittle everyone else buying from the store for not getting BEST DEAL... SAVINGS!!!!

Sadly, it's true. There's a reason why in the business world, Best Buy is known as Amazon's showroom.

But to be fair, I buy from my FLGS even though they are 2.5x the price of what I'd pay for in TheWarstore and despite the fact I know that the owner is ripping people off, because I'm supporting my local community. My FLGS doesn't charge table fees, membership fees, etc. while providing a gathering space for ANY game you want (even Monopoly Deal, Uno, Hold'em...), a well-versed and talented friendly community, a buying/selling shop, working/painting stations for free. It's the least I could do.

Stranger83 wrote:

the fact is - and it's the only fact I've made on multiple occasions, i've never claimed anything else despite what you are saying I said, is that you get more actual models from GW for your money than you get from any other - that is a fact and any claim that you don't.

Except for Mantic, which you've disregarded, because it doesn't fit your theory.

And there is also Reaper with their new line of plastic bones guys. Admittedly the range is currently rather small, but is set to expand quite a bit in the new year.

I always find people arguing over GW prices a touch obscene. I have, after essential spending, £20 a week from which i have to accumulate savings, cover unexpected costs and fuel my hobby. Since 6th Ed, on this budget and buying direct from GW, i have accumulated a 1500Pt BA force and managed to keep my MtG addiction comfortably fed.

The issue simply isn't that GW is expensive, the issue is that people believe they should be able to sustain multiple hobbies (classing different systems as separate hobbies as truthfully they are).

If buying direct is too expensive, buy online or whatever. If buying online is too expensive, complain about online retailers being too expensive.

jamin p wrote:
I always find people arguing over GW prices a touch obscene. I have, after essential spending, £20 a week from which i have to accumulate savings, cover unexpected costs and fuel my hobby. Since 6th Ed, on this budget and buying direct from GW, i have accumulated a 1500Pt BA force and managed to keep my MtG addiction comfortably fed.

The issue simply isn't that GW is expensive, the issue is that people believe they should be able to sustain multiple hobbies (classing different systems as separate hobbies as truthfully they are).

If buying direct is too expensive, buy online or whatever. If buying online is too expensive, complain about online retailers being too expensive.

Wargaming is the only hobby I have that has recurring costs. My drum set doesn't cost me more every month. I bought it, it's done. My computer serves more functions than just gaming, therefore can't be written off as a pure hobby expense.

Now when those recurring costs start rising willy nilly, it starts to affect my drive for that hobby. My financial acquisitions for 2012 from GW are the lowest I've had in my 12 years of wargaming. 2013 MIGHT see a slight rise in my expenses if the HE and DE releases have anything good in them.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

the fact is - and it's the only fact I've made on multiple occasions, i've never claimed anything else despite what you are saying I said, is that you get more actual models from GW for your money than you get from any other - that is a fact and any claim that you don't.

Except for Mantic, which you've disregarded, because it doesn't fit your theory.

And there is also Reaper with their new line of plastic bones guys. Admittedly the range is currently rather small, but is set to expand quite a bit in the new year.

Except for Mantic, which I disregarded because they are not one of the "big 3" - but I wasn't articulating that very well when I posted the above (it had been a long day) but I've issued a nother ost trying to clarify that already

Alo, yes Reaper bone - but as it's not avaliable right now then you can hardly use it as a comparison.