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 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
What does low-post count have to do with it? How do you know that they haven't been lurking for years?

Just something I've noticed over the years. Because it is correct this thread crops up a couple of times a year and several low post count, seemingly new, posters will appear to defend GW's honor.

For myself and my family members who play. (5 in total)

GW has priced us out, since 5th we have had a few dream projects for armies that we all wanted to work on, however many of them are just not feasible price wise for us. Unfortunetly, we will no longer be founding new armies, we intend to continue to play with what we have, maybe add a unit once a year but thats it really, o and yes we are all extremely disappointed with the new books and here is why.

I don't want a 5,000 page book full of pretty pictures, the storry line hasnt change (except crons) in the 15 years I've been playing the game. I just want my mini rulebook and hopefully a mini codex, which will never exhist, so i can economically continue to play with updated rules......

So its off to other systems for us, we like the setting and backstory, but for us its time to move on.

We are shelving our stuff and hoping that GW goes through this phase, which they have to. Its simple math really, their prices are rising at a rate higher than inflation..... Which means that eventually everyone will be priced out, its just a matter of how many years that takes. So something will change ... its just a matter of time, unless they are really as inept as many on these forums think. But I dont think that is the case.

So for those of you who still are buying new armies, good for you my family got a lot of enjoyment out of the game, for those of you who are moving on awesome perhaps given time some other companies will be just as good if not better than GW

Yea Im keeping my 40k stuff because I wont EVER make close to what Ive put in it. And I bought the 6th mini from a buddy for $20 bucks. So Ill play every now and again, but thats about as far as Im going with GW products anymore. Im pretty done with them

I always look at it like this, rule books for 40k/fantasy usually last about 5 years, and are say £45 each.

My motorbike helmet lasts 5 years before UV damage, use etc means its best to replace, my last one was £750, i got it for £480 as i bought a new bike.

GW books are in the grand scheme not that expensive over 5 years.

although i realise its not a similar analogy, my point is, as hobbies go, they get a LOT more expensive than toy soldiers.

Car road tax at £200 a year, the next car i am looking at its in th £480 a year bracket!! Plastic crack is buttons in comparison.

I think GW should follow the Blizzard model and start making good games

SouthTexanFrymire wrote:
I think GW should follow the Blizzard model and start making good games

>Company that made Starcraft and WoW
>Good Games

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
What does low-post count have to do with it? How do you know that they haven't been lurking for years?

Just something I've noticed over the years. Because it is correct this thread crops up a couple of times a year and several low post count, seemingly new, posters will appear to defend GW's honor.

Having a low post count doesnt't mean you are new to the hobby and have not seen the way GW has evolved over the years. I have only recently joined this forum but I have been doing the hobby since I was 12 which is over 17 years... I am sure there are many others the same. There are so many arguements for and against as with any debate of this kind... there is truth and reason in both sides. Lets hope that we are all still enjoying the hobby for many years to come whether that be as religious supporters of GW or another equivalent company.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
What does low-post count have to do with it? How do you know that they haven't been lurking for years?

Just something I've noticed over the years. Because it is correct this thread crops up a couple of times a year and several low post count, seemingly new, posters will appear to defend GW's honor.

Im not saying I agree with the guy, but post count has feth all to do with anything in a debate.

Rick_1138 wrote:
I always look at it like this, rule books for 40k/fantasy usually last about 5 years, and are say £45 each.

My motorbike helmet lasts 5 years before UV damage, use etc means its best to replace, my last one was £750, i got it for £480 as i bought a new bike.

GW books are in the grand scheme not that expensive over 5 years.

although i realise its not a similar analogy, my point is, as hobbies go, they get a LOT more expensive than toy soldiers.

Car road tax at £200 a year, the next car i am looking at its in th £480 a year bracket!! Plastic crack is buttons in comparison.

You paid 450 quid for a poly carb helmet!!! I never paid that for my fiberglass one, and I have had it far longer than 4 years.
(When not in use, it stays in its own bag)
My motor-home costs the same as your car to tax(and yes that's to much)
But GW's prices are taking the michael out of everyone.

 KingCracker wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
What does low-post count have to do with it? How do you know that they haven't been lurking for years?

Just something I've noticed over the years. Because it is correct this thread crops up a couple of times a year and several low post count, seemingly new, posters will appear to defend GW's honor.

Im not saying I agree with the guy, but post count has feth all to do with anything in a debate.

And I'm not saying that it did have feth all to do with it, it's just a bit of trend analysis.

I find post count to be very relevant when discussing opinions.

Rules, not so much.

Mind you, it is not always a good thing, but someone who is willing to invest enough time to discuss just about anything for years is more vested than someone who is passively engaged in any manner.

Stonie wrote:

Where I do agree with elements of the arguement here you have to consider the relative sizes of these companies. If you look at the retail estate held by GW, the number of staff across the business from store > designers > artists > developers > writers > management > factory > warehouse etc proportionally the costs are much higher than that of a much smaller competitor business. This has a knock on effect on the cost to the end user...

This is a fair point, their costs are likely higher than many of the smaller firms. Certainly the GW stores across the planet are a very big 'point sink'...

I'll counter this with the following favorable factors GW has:

1.In house, streamlined and bulk manufacturing.
2.Massively greater sales globally, likely than all their competitors combined by a sizable degree.
3.Far greater buying power for materials.
4.Recognized and valuable IP.
5.Recent 'vigorous' retail reduction from gaming stores to one man selling shops.
6.Recent and extensive beheadings in the design team removing high paid and 'established' names from this part of the company.
7.Similar beheadings in the middle rungs of management, especially long term employees who were entitled to higher pay, holidays and benefits.
8.Dramatic reduction of staff across the retail floor internationally.

These factors have contributed to one thing only, the dividend. It appears very strongly from the outside that it's being milked to a speedy death and that it could well be argued the considerable share interest of it's chair and his family is a driving factor behind that.

Just spend an hour or two in the Introduction and Survivor Games forums. Then will your opinions will matter.

help please wrote:

Rick_1138 wrote:
I always look at it like this, rule books for 40k/fantasy usually last about 5 years, and are say £45 each.

My motorbike helmet lasts 5 years before UV damage, use etc means its best to replace, my last one was £750, i got it for £480 as i bought a new bike.

GW books are in the grand scheme not that expensive over 5 years.

although i realise its not a similar analogy, my point is, as hobbies go, they get a LOT more expensive than toy soldiers.

Car road tax at £200 a year, the next car i am looking at its in th £480 a year bracket!! Plastic crack is buttons in comparison.

You paid 450 quid for a poly carb helmet!!! I never paid that for my fiberglass one, and I have had it far longer than 4 years.
(When not in use, it stays in its own bag)
My motor-home costs the same as your car to tax(and yes that's to much)
But GW's prices are taking the michael out of everyone.

It's a top of the range Shoei, it's multi composite materials, not plastic. Fibreglass is pretty rare in helmets now.

Most shoei and Arai were about £500 but the yen died so they shot up.

But £500 is normal for a top end racing helmet.

 kirsanth wrote:
I find post count to be very relevant when discussing opinions.

Rules, not so much.

Mind you, it is not always a good thing, but someone who is willing to invest enough time to discuss just about anything for years is more vested than someone who is passively engaged in any manner.

Wow, good job alienating people... That's like me saying "well you may have a few thousands posts but your not a DCM so... Meh."

It's complete balderdash. Everyone's opinions and views are valid and welcome. Doesn't matter as to how many posts, or anything else.

To be clear, I do not mean that people with low post counts are or should be discounted, rather the other side of it.

Personally, I will pay more attention to (what I read as) ridiculous opinions with more detail if it is from a poster that has been willing to state their mind more often.

It makes no bearing on whether that opinion matters though, really.

editing to add:
Exactly why I clarified.

I did not say that any opinion is balderdash, as you did, darefsky.

I hope this isn't too far off-topic I've found that in GW Belfast we cannot play or paint in the stores anymore. The only people allowed are noobs getting lessons. That to me has alienated a large number of loyal customers. I've heard this policy is in all stores not just Belfast.

This would as far as I see turn everybody towards playing in other clubs and buying non-GW products. Hasd anybody else encountered this change of policy or is there a thread dedicated to it.

 Leech wrote:
I hope this isn't too far off-topic I've found that in GW Belfast we cannot play or paint in the stores anymore. The only people allowed are noobs getting lessons. That to me has alienated a large number of loyal customers. I've heard this policy is in all stores not just Belfast.

This would as far as I see turn everybody towards playing in other clubs and buying non-GW products. Hasd anybody else encountered this change of policy or is there a thread dedicated to it.

There are a number of changes that seem to be happening across the estate. I think there is some movement store by store but its apparent that there is a definate emphasis towards 'new recruits'. Where this does alienate some long term gamers you have to ask the question of what do you do when you go to a GW store? Stores are the frontline to the hobby and the primary mechanism for engaging with new hobbyists. Its important for staff to interact with these new comers as they are the future of the hobby and GW as a whole.

As a business its not a productive use of time for staff to stand chatting to a veteran gamer about anything but what they might purchase. A GW store is a shop... when you visit a shop you generally do so with the intention to buy something. I have and on occasion and still am guilty of lingering in stores and I have seen many others do the same but I have no intention to buy. Many veteran gamers also buy from third parties due to the prices of buying direct which is related to the thread's debate.

The point I am making is that we have gaming clubs, our homes, schools, FORUMS etc to play the game, engage in the hobby and chat about the how your general shoved his power weapon up Ghazgull's butt. Why do we need to hang around in a GW store? Do women go and meet up in Top shop and talk about fashion and clothes with the shop assistants? Nope... Same applys here does it not? The staff have a responsibility to encourage new recruits to take up the hobby which inevitably will be the difference between us playing the games we love in 20 years or not...

It's a rip off for the price. I just got back in the hobby. I just paid over 600$ for 1500 point force. All of my mold lines are off. Why? The quality does not reflect the price. Can you get credit from gw for gakky models?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Stonie wrote:

Where I do agree with elements of the arguement here you have to consider the relative sizes of these companies. If you look at the retail estate held by GW, the number of staff across the business from store > designers > artists > developers > writers > management > factory > warehouse etc proportionally the costs are much higher than that of a much smaller competitor business. This has a knock on effect on the cost to the end user...

This is a fair point, their costs are likely higher than many of the smaller firms. Certainly the GW stores across the planet are a very big 'point sink'...

I'll counter this with the following favorable factors GW has:

1.In house, streamlined and bulk manufacturing.
2.Massively greater sales globally, likely than all their competitors combined by a sizable degree.
3.Far greater buying power for materials.
4.Recognized and valuable IP.
5.Recent 'vigorous' retail reduction from gaming stores to one man selling shops.
6.Recent and extensive beheadings in the design team removing high paid and 'established' names from this part of the company.
7.Similar beheadings in the middle rungs of management, especially long term employees who were entitled to higher pay, holidays and benefits.
8.Dramatic reduction of staff across the retail floor internationally.

These factors have contributed to one thing only, the dividend. It appears very strongly from the outside that it's being milked to a speedy death and that it could well be argued the considerable share interest of it's chair and his family is a driving factor behind that.

These also are very valid points - I seem like I am pro GW and price increases etc but thats not the case its just there is a compelling arguement on the contrary to all the negative arguements. Although the points aboove are justified some could actually present an arguement to the contrary:

1. With in house manufacturing the business is responsible for all maintenance, upgrading, premises, insurance, staffing etc. So whereby the process may be streamlined it could be construed that this is inefficent from a cost perspective over using a third party manufacturer. Why do so many businesses outsource services?
2. With global business that in itself brings its own set of additional costs, tax's, printing, advertising, support, shipping etc. On the scale that GW operates this is considerable...

I am sure I could think of other viable points to counter the rest but I am beaten for now lol! I want to do some painting haha!

Again and again and again, those who voice in support of GW speak in terms of expensive, this is not the same as worth. It is the perceived worth of the product that has been pushed to it's boundaries.

My argument has mostly been that the prices for GW minis have always gone up, and they've always been priced at a premium. Folks complain, and get more models.

You mentioned earlier the great majority of your friends deciding GW products were too expensive a long time ago and bowing out. GW's price increases have continued apace and no amount of, what frankly read as excuses can account for the pricing when held against other miniature manufacturers who are smaller and have less buying power or established infrastructure. If the great majority of your friends dropped the minis a long time ago and you are now here to 'do battle' with those voicing the same criticisms several years later, all you are facing is the same reasoning with a higher threshold for price, who have also now reached a critical mass in terms of what they will endure.

Let me rephrase, I meant friends I have who don't game, and find it expensive, because it's not what they want to do. So the bulk of what you are saying is wasted, at least on me. I have had gaming friends who don't play GW games, but used to, but they are few. Again, pricing has a lot of to do with established customer base, and demand for the whole range. A start up company will have the ability to provide lower costs, knowing that customers will be buying their whole range. They are lower now, but that will be short term.

The trend of people dropping out of GW games is increasing, just lately it's started to snowball, if hobbyists around me and people I read about online are anything to go by. We have established independent retailers like Mikhaila, who was a staunch GW supporter and would often weigh in to defend the company with business logic and sound argument, now utterly disillusioned with the company over it's woeful withdrawl of tournament support and it's dire 'finecast' quality and refusal to allow certain minis to be carried other than direct only. We have doggedly loyal supporters of the range like Oni try and try and try to find unblemished 'finecast' miniatures and finally give up, finally stop defending the company and just admit there's something wrong.

I haven't noticed this drop out myself. I do read a lot of folks online going bonkers, but that's more of a reflection of the round the clock opinion cyclone that is the Internet, than reality. I do hear them gripe at the store, and then they march out with the newest army a day later because they had to have it.

What none of you guys who show up suddenly in these threads, low post count and suddenly out of the blue go pages of defending, don't get, is that we all LOVE wargaming, it's why we're here. A very large number of those who are critical of the elephant in the bathtub, GW, are critical because we love the games and the background and are utterly fed up of watching a company we no longer recognize take things we are very fond of and turn them into massively overpriced garbage.

Yeah, I'd rather have a low post count and a better point, than a high post count and an inferior point, regardless or not, I'm sure you'll agree.

The dividend payment short term has become the only driving goal, to, in my humble opinion, the great detriment of the company and it's games long term health and life expectancy. I believe there is something very very wrong with the large amount of stock held by Kirby and co and their apparent determination to simply get as rich as possible by squeezing the life from the company and setting it to collapse in a few years time. Your friends gave up a long time ago, since then the customer base isn't increasing, it's running in ever decreasing circles. these aren't faberge eggs, they are just plastic soldiers, you can only convince so many people to continue buying a plastic toy solder at $20 and even less people at $30.

The things you complain about are true with every major company, but you and others present them as unprecedented. Your TV could have been cheaper if not for the dividend payment from Sony, but you're not complaining about that. Stock holders either want dividends, or stock growth. If not they get rowdy. A chairman owning a large amount of stock is more the rule than the exception, again, FOR ANY COMPANY.

Kirby spoke of the 'price elasticity' the customer base would endure, basically saying 'these people can stand pricing abuse', elasticity has limits and many have already snapped.

Oh my God... way to jump to conclusions. Flat out; discussing price elasticity, and even saying the phrase 'price elasticity' does not mean price abuse, just like buying a gun doesn't mean planning to murder someone. I suppose it can, but to throw this out as a definitive conclusion is absurd.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Stonie wrote:

Where I do agree with elements of the arguement here you have to consider the relative sizes of these companies. If you look at the retail estate held by GW, the number of staff across the business from store > designers > artists > developers > writers > management > factory > warehouse etc proportionally the costs are much higher than that of a much smaller competitor business. This has a knock on effect on the cost to the end user...

This is a fair point, their costs are likely higher than many of the smaller firms. Certainly the GW stores across the planet are a very big 'point sink'...

I'll counter this with the following favorable factors GW has:

1.In house, streamlined and bulk manufacturing.
2.Massively greater sales globally, likely than all their competitors combined by a sizable degree.
3.Far greater buying power for materials.
4.Recognized and valuable IP.
5.Recent 'vigorous' retail reduction from gaming stores to one man selling shops.
6.Recent and extensive beheadings in the design team removing high paid and 'established' names from this part of the company.
7.Similar beheadings in the middle rungs of management, especially long term employees who were entitled to higher pay, holidays and benefits.
8.Dramatic reduction of staff across the retail floor internationally.

These factors have contributed to one thing only, the dividend. It appears very strongly from the outside that it's being milked to a speedy death and that it could well be argued the considerable share interest of it's chair and his family is a driving factor behind that.

When do you think it will die?

Another thing I though about adding to this discussion about the pricing of the models is right now they don't hold the value people want for them. A 50 dollar Leman Russ NIB and still sealed up, you might be able to resell it for 45ish. Take it out of the box, still unassembled, and it's high 30s. Assembled 30 bucks max. Built and painted nicely it's worth 25, and if it's badly painted and/or damaged it's worth about 15 bucks max.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Another thing I though about adding to this discussion about the pricing of the models is right now they don't hold the value people want for them. A 50 dollar Leman Russ NIB and still sealed up, you might be able to resell it for 45ish. Take it out of the box, still unassembled, and it's high 30s. Assembled 30 bucks max. Built and painted nicely it's worth 25, and if it's badly painted and/or damaged it's worth about 15 bucks max.

While I dislike the price increases in general they are actually rather beneficial in your above scenario. I have sold armies I bought years ago at substantially more than I paid for them due to basing the selling price off of today's insane mark-ups.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Another thing I though about adding to this discussion about the pricing of the models is right now they don't hold the value people want for them. A 50 dollar Leman Russ NIB and still sealed up, you might be able to resell it for 45ish. Take it out of the box, still unassembled, and it's high 30s. Assembled 30 bucks max. Built and painted nicely it's worth 25, and if it's badly painted and/or damaged it's worth about 15 bucks max.

So you're saying GW minis are a product that is worth less on the private market versus retail? Aghast!
...and it's worth even less if used? Oh MY!
...and EVEN LESS if used, rode hard, and hung up wet? OMFG! clearly GW are nothing heartless corporate shills!

I do agree that GW are being insanely greedy in their pricing rates and year increases.

I don't want to come across as 'White Knighting' for GW but I think we have to take into consideration that the amount we pay for most products is unbalanced due to it being made in third world countries by more or less slave labour. Clothing/toys/electrons etc are cheap because cost like living wages, taxes, investments are being avoided by most company's.

GW makes there products in the UK (I think they do for the USA but idk) and as such have more obligations and higher costs. Added to that they are PLC with share holders that dammed the kind of results a less ethical companies make. If the company doesn't show growth each year the loss in confidence can cripple it and make it all but impossible to secure loans etc. In the UK most of their stores are in towns where local councils are increasing their rents by eye watering amounts.

The general economy has, lets face it gone tits up. When were all make good money like 10 years ago you didn't mind dump a ton of change on a hobby item, as prices of everything have gone up and wages in real terms gone down massively people can't justify to prices and get angry. Should they be angry and a plastic toy solider company or the state of the economy and the raw deal they are getting?

I kinda of think this hobby or the people it attracts like to moan and complain in general. I am not saying that the price isn't a issue, it is and even I am being priced out, but its my impression that the people who complain the loudest also complain about how they can't get a good job/girlfriend w/e they seek excuses for their problems.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Another thing I though about adding to this discussion about the pricing of the models is right now they don't hold the value people want for them. A 50 dollar Leman Russ NIB and still sealed up, you might be able to resell it for 45ish. Take it out of the box, still unassembled, and it's high 30s. Assembled 30 bucks max. Built and painted nicely it's worth 25, and if it's badly painted and/or damaged it's worth about 15 bucks max.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Another thing I though about adding to this discussion about the pricing of the models is right now they don't hold the value people want for them. A 50 dollar Leman Russ NIB and still sealed up, you might be able to resell it for 45ish. Take it out of the box, still unassembled, and it's high 30s. Assembled 30 bucks max. Built and painted nicely it's worth 25, and if it's badly painted and/or damaged it's worth about 15 bucks max.

Weird, I just bought a couple of roughly painted Leman Russes for about £12 each, that's about $19.

There's this thing...called spray paint and I'd rather they were assembled. Saves me the time.

 MisterMoon wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Another thing I though about adding to this discussion about the pricing of the models is right now they don't hold the value people want for them. A 50 dollar Leman Russ NIB and still sealed up, you might be able to resell it for 45ish. Take it out of the box, still unassembled, and it's high 30s. Assembled 30 bucks max. Built and painted nicely it's worth 25, and if it's badly painted and/or damaged it's worth about 15 bucks max.

So you're saying GW minis are a product that is worth less on the private market versus retail? Aghast!
...and it's worth even less if used? Oh MY!
...and EVEN LESS if used, rode hard, and hung up wet? OMFG! clearly GW are nothing heartless corporate shills!

Yes let us insult the fellow... Resale value is important to people. Being compassionate might be welcome. A snide remark only does ill service to you.

I agree with one point of the above post the quality is horrible. The minis should be cheaper considering the quality. All of the recent minis I got are terribly off. No one checks the models. You think for the price they might.

Lol, just been on Warseer to see if they have a similar thread. Theirs is stickied and it's four years old