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 Grot 6 wrote:
It's not your list.... It's you.

Bingo. I've played more arse faced FAACers then WAACers. With competitive you just have to understand the rules, and not be afraid to stand your ground, with fluff you have to make sure you dont some how offend their delicate snow flake ideals. I remember there was one guy on the tournament scene years ago that was a pure fluff player, and going against him usually meant your soft scores got nuked, and he would always say that "I'll mark you accordingly" to the point it was a running joke for everyone. Now the things that he marked "accordingly" ranged massively, he would mark you down if you took a unit he didnt like, or more then 2 tanks etc.

Ive also seen more tournament gamers run fully painted and beautiful armies and constantly buy new armies, all in the name of 'staying ahead of the curve". Ive seen people with fluff armies get royally screwed by GW and made them so bitter towards the company they garbage binned their army.

Regardless, in the end its the player behind the army, not the army itself.

Good points.

Another thing I noticed: both in 40k and WHFB, I got the impression that people with balanced lists get the best results.

With 6th, people who spammed vehicles due to them being overly effective in 5th got screwed over (or took a hard hit, YMMV), people who spammed Chaos Marauders got screwed over, VC players who spammed Skeletons took a hit etc.

It's just my personal experience and I might just see what I want to see, but overall, I like the path GW decided to take with their new rulesets (8th left aside).

I think, if every army was balanced and had the opportunity to be great, instead of a select few being totally broken and the rest sucking, then tournaments would be worth going to.
As I saw at the end of 5th ed, it was all of 3 armies being played.
Grey Knights, Imperial Guard and Blood Angels, here and there you might have a different army, but out of 20 people, 15 would be one of those top 3. Dunno if it was my bad luck in picking tournaments but it felt like yugioh all over again, same lists, same broken rules.

 keezus wrote:
I think that something is getting lost in the WAAC vs Casual player argument here: There is no reason that any army should be severely handicapped due to lax rule writing, be it due to its mechanics being drastically affected by core rules re-writes (Eldar's reliance on rules-exceptions and specialist nature gets kicked in the teeth every edition revision), or just plain neglect (10 year lapse between V3 Orks and V5 Orks). Armies low on the power curve are going to be inherently disadvantaged casual formats or not.

The two usual responses to those complaining about balance is:

1. Use the effective units (WAAC) / Use less effective units (Casual)
2. Buy a new army.

Both of these are unsatisfactory outcomes. In the case of the player limiting themselves to the effective/ineffective units, this essentially strips the choice out of army selection. Considering the emphasis that most supporters of "casual 40k" place on "Rule of Cool", inevitably, someone is going to have a much stronger list by virtue of playing with a stronger codex. IMHO, attempting to artificially limit list strength is not the answer. In the case of "buy a new army", the cost of the "GW Hobby" these days is driving people to "start a new game" instead. GW could fix this through tighter rules writing, but instead choose not to - since GW introduces unbalance by design to drive model sales.

The imbalance is also exaggerated by the releases of new editions and new army books being detached from each other, and the wildly different times that various armies have to wait before they get a new list. Even if GW wanted to be balanced, it would be very hard just by virtue of this inconsistency--when a new edition drops, it's going to vary who gets advantaged or disadvantaged by the new rules, basically at random. When everything gets revised at the same time, with no armies getting their rules grandfathered into the new edition and the quirks that produces, the balance is going to be much better.

@Elemental: IMHO> What should be done at every edition is ammend each codex with a stripped down PDF with errata. Just base stats for models that require rebalancing to get players by - with the intent that they can be "pasted" overtop of their paper dex. No background, no photos, etc. Not quite the full reboot that V3 was, but redoing the most broken models in each codex.

Of course, this will never happen because it is cheaper for GW to not do anything. Management clearly believes that their "die hard" customers will accept anything, and purchase upgrades / new army to keep playing, and new customers won't know any better.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
... it felt like yugioh all over again, same lists, same broken rules.

Gads, I remember that. $40 gold foil cards that basically say "Effect; this lets you cheat".

 Dheneb wrote:

Nucflash wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Nucflash, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I give a monkeys.

But you have to agree that the video was kinda fun, and to the point muhaha.. But I think You should start playing Warmachine/hordes.. because by reading some other posts you have made, I can see that you might still be playing GW games. And those are awfull when it comes to playing competativly. Playing warmachine/hordes is more like playing a game of chess, you cant really Rules Lawyer people in Warmachine.. everything is very straight forward and all the rules are very tightly writen.

Its not the same way as running into someone in Warhammer 40k with an Owerpowerd list and a bunch of cheese rules... Who destroys your fun..

Seriously more of you GW people need to play other games.. because I think you dont know what you are missing....

I'll admit that I've been toying with the idea of starting a Warmachine army in the past, but the super-competitive style doesn't really appeal to me. I can appreciate that allure that it has for you (and others), but a full-on tactical gauntlet isn't something that I find fun (at least not all the time). And that's a point that you seem to refuse to accept - some people derive their fun from things other than the win, and that it is equally as valid as yours. And just to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying that yours is wrong, or that mine is the "one true way" to play.

I have never said that you should not play games for fun. You can play warmachine for fun also, run lists that are made up by miniatures you like etc. But you need to respect your opponent even if its just a game for fun..

The post you quoted was a direct response to Azreal13, who looks to have been bullied one time to many, during his, (25 years was it?) long gaming career. I respect that he dosen't want to play competetive anymore. If you suck at something you really should not keep doing it. But trying to say that its not Important to win in games. just tells me he is trying to belittle those that are more skilled then himself. If someone beats me in a chess game, my first response is not "ho you beat me, but there are more Important things in life, and you should not take it to seriously". If I do this i disrespect my opponent and I disrespect myself, using a passive agressive attitude to try and belittle him. And point out, that his win was pointless, because there are more important things in life. Weak people often try to do this, it eats at them that they lack the skills, and do their best to try and still score points by pointing out meaningless and obvious facts. We all know there are more Important things in life then gaming. But during a match in that particular moment in time it is Important. Trying to belittle that fact, just shows you have zero respect for your fellow gamers. Azrael has clearly shown he lacks any respect for his oppnents. He has set his own code, and all who are better then him, are taking gaming to seriously , and his defence for sucking is that there are more Important things in life.

Azrael if you are reading this please understand, That you come off as Passive agressive, and you Belittle your friend who beat you in magic, saying he is dull.. Respect your fellow players. Becuse if you cant acknowledge talent/skills you really should not participate in any type of activity where you risk comming in contact with people that can Win over you...

Oh grow up!

When I played 'competitively' I was undefeated at my FLGS, which is as far as I went with 40k. I played CCGs at nationally ranked tourneys and did ok. Not epic, but then I didn't invest the time and money to get really good, I only really played one evening a week.

In addition, and this is for real and not internet bragging, although you'll obviously have nothing but my word for that, I'm almost 2m tall and over 120kgs, I've never been bullied by anyone at any time about anything.

Now, for my own peace of mind, and to avoid further derailing of this thread, Nucflash, congratulations on being the first ever recipient of the Azreal Ignorehammer.

I think where the issue of models price with GW; two things come to mind.

Competitive army: I play SM, and have enough of a collection to field an army list which will be competitive over 90% of the time. The trouble is that this takes a lot of time, and money, and models. You'd have to drop 4 figures to get what I have today (I didn't buy it all at once), so if you just want to plop down $150 and show up next week for a game with a fully painted army, GW is not your system. It turns out many folks are like this, and the sticker shock adds up to many consumers. The only issue is I seen my FLGS manager routinely tell people they need to invest over 600 bucks to have a decent army in WH/40k, and it doesn't seem to slow many of them down from doing just that, usually over a year. Because of this, it's hard for me to say that GW has "hit that magic number," but others are quick to say no one is buying GW stuff at their FLGS anymore.

Great models, for premium price, but you don't maybe need just one, you need multiple. For this I'll use a WM/H example. WM/H came out with their new colossus line which are premium priced. The only thing is, you don't NEED them, and if you do get one, ONE is plenty, and there's nothing wrong with them at just about any point level, making it far more versatile. With GW, each army has several premium models to choose from, but you need like 5 of them to play, and you really don't have an option, you have to get them because of the rules.

Well, as of today, I am happy to say that GW pricing no longer bothers me at all.

I sold my sixth and last army on eBay today. Having been involved with GW since third edition Warhammer, playing both Warhammer and 40k and a bunch of the specialist games along the way, I am done with them for good.

However, they have not driven me from the hobby. I have been investing and building some FoW and 28mm WWII. I will say one thing - while FoW is also a heavier investment, being involved in collecting historicals in 28mm has made me realize just how really out of whack the fantasy/sci-fi element of the hobby is compared to historicals.

So, GW pricing hasn't driven me from the hobby - but after many, many years they have driven me completely away from GW.

The combined cost of my codex and the new rulebook is prohibitively high I am afraid. At roughly $130 it is just far too much money. From now on I will rely upon others for the rules. If I still played every week or two maybe it would be worth it. But games are too occassional for me to shell out that kind of cash - especially since I am sure there will be a new rulebook probably within 4 years. Which means it is less of an investment and more of a subscription - to play with the models I already own.

A bit sad, really. But yes, for me, it is going to have to be my friend's rulebook plus my old codex for now.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

Implies you can't have fun while trying to win.

No it doesn't! But there's a right way and a wrong way, and playing to ROFLStomp your friends isn't the right way.

It is possible to play to win without going overboard. To me it's also disrespectful to your opponent's efforts to also have fun to play a cheese list, unless that's what they're expecting of course.

This is the perfect illustration of what is wrong with GW games: GW, having decided they don't care about making a balanced game, attempts to instill in the player base that people that notice that the emperor has no clothes (and play lists that are entirely legal) should be controlled by being called names.

It is the job of the game company to provide a balanced set of rules so as many play styles as possible can be accommodated.

Magic: the Gathering and Warmachine/Hordes accomplish this as well as anyone in their respective fields. GW, by contrast, simply doesn't give a crap.

This is why I so love PP's famous "page 5" rules, which culminate in "play like you have a pair". Because we see the alternative above: emotional blackmail. Oh, you brought a hard list? Well, you're just a bad person. What's especially amusing is how the adherents of this position think they are the mature ones.

WOC is an example of a company that doesnt care about its product... They CONSTANTLY push out product that is one sided. The current flavor dominants till they release a balance for it in the next set. Playing professionally is what killed the love for the game that and judging and dealing with asshats and rules lawyers.......

i hate the fact gw keep upping thier prices. i remember when the new tactical squad costed 12 quid - that was amazing.

the problem is that GW just seem to do what they want in regards to upping prices, i like to think when/if we eventually come out of the recession (unless we are already out of it?) they will drop the prices down to a normal level. but that's just wishful thinking lol.

i think there is going to be some sort of spamming in almost any game you get warmachine or infinity or whatever... the fact is GW are at the top and i can't really see other companies taking over from them because the background fluff to most of them is just meh compared to that good old depressing, dark, grim world of warhammer that we all know and love.

also, in regards to the price rises if everyone actually did a spartacus and went 'in a united front we all say f**k you to paying obscene prices for plastic men' then they would have to do something. but, kids are none the wiser about the prices as GW knows that the parents will eventually give in tto thier kids going 'oooooooowaaaaaaaohhhh i want that spaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOH MARAOOOAH MUUUUUUUAAAOOOM'. and then the rest of us just moan about it on forums while GW laugh and go 'yeah but, you love our stuff so buy it'

i'd do a spartacus, but no one else will so i accept that they'll keep going till they burn themselves out.

i think this quote sums it up;

"All i see is a bunch of low foreheads trying to change the world between some talk" - Ben richards, aka The Butcher of Bakersfield, Running Man , 1987

P.S. i apologise for the poor grammar, i cba to change it lol

 Solorg wrote:
The combined cost of my codex and the new rulebook is prohibitively high I am afraid. At roughly $130 it is just far too much money. From now on I will rely upon others for the rules. If I still played every week or two maybe it would be worth it. But games are too occassional for me to shell out that kind of cash - especially since I am sure there will be a new rulebook probably within 4 years. Which means it is less of an investment and more of a subscription - to play with the models I already own.

A bit sad, really. But yes, for me, it is going to have to be my friend's rulebook plus my old codex for now.

dark vengeance has the mini rule book. and thats fairly cheap fro what you get. 75-80 dollars for good models.

 Atropus wrote:

 Solorg wrote:
The combined cost of my codex and the new rulebook is prohibitively high I am afraid. At roughly $130 it is just far too much money. From now on I will rely upon others for the rules. If I still played every week or two maybe it would be worth it. But games are too occassional for me to shell out that kind of cash - especially since I am sure there will be a new rulebook probably within 4 years. Which means it is less of an investment and more of a subscription - to play with the models I already own.

A bit sad, really. But yes, for me, it is going to have to be my friend's rulebook plus my old codex for now.

dark vengeance has the mini rule book. and thats fairly cheap fro what you get. 75-80 dollars for good models.

Aye I bet you can ebay the mini RB for $10 now.

 mattyrm wrote:

 Atropus wrote:

 Solorg wrote:
The combined cost of my codex and the new rulebook is prohibitively high I am afraid. At roughly $130 it is just far too much money. From now on I will rely upon others for the rules. If I still played every week or two maybe it would be worth it. But games are too occassional for me to shell out that kind of cash - especially since I am sure there will be a new rulebook probably within 4 years. Which means it is less of an investment and more of a subscription - to play with the models I already own.

A bit sad, really. But yes, for me, it is going to have to be my friend's rulebook plus my old codex for now.

dark vengeance has the mini rule book. and thats fairly cheap fro what you get. 75-80 dollars for good models.

Aye I bet you can ebay the mini RB for $10 now.

Surprisingly not. I've been looking for one for a while, it's really unusual to find one for less than 20 quid. I can at least recover the costs by selling my hb version and save my back, but they're still really popular.

A brief review/comparison of two comparable minis
Necron Lord, Games Workshop
Kit type: Monopose Infantry model (HQ/Hero)
Material: Resin (aka Finecast), model felt extremely flimsy, very worried to work with
Complexity: Minimal, three parts
Flash/Mold lines: Heavy mold lines, ridiculous amounts of flash. Most of assembly time is stripping the flash very very carefully.
Conversion potential: Low, without excessive work/delicacy, did manage a small weapons conversion but it felt very touch and go.
Note: Model is very weak, war staff snapped off during assembly even with best efforts for delicacy (and I've assembled 2k worth of Imperial Guard), slot attachment for the base came lose from the lord's foot as I was inserting it into the infantry base
Over all impression of quality: Poor

Hauptmann Ada, Eisenkern (Iron Core), Dreamforge Games
Kit type: Monopose Infantry model (HQ/Hero)
Material: Injection molded plastic, nice and sturdy feel to materials
Complexity: Some very small pieces, assemble and de sprue with caution or you will lose your mind (oh groin armor where are't thou?) it also took me a minute to figure out where the rifle butt stock went...
Flash/Mold lines: No flash, minimal mold lines
Conversion potential: High, model feels solid and has incredible detail
Over all impression of quality: High

text removed.
reds8n

 azreal13 wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:

 Atropus wrote:

 Solorg wrote:
The combined cost of my codex and the new rulebook is prohibitively high I am afraid. At roughly $130 it is just far too much money. From now on I will rely upon others for the rules. If I still played every week or two maybe it would be worth it. But games are too occassional for me to shell out that kind of cash - especially since I am sure there will be a new rulebook probably within 4 years. Which means it is less of an investment and more of a subscription - to play with the models I already own.

A bit sad, really. But yes, for me, it is going to have to be my friend's rulebook plus my old codex for now.

dark vengeance has the mini rule book. and thats fairly cheap fro what you get. 75-80 dollars for good models.

Aye I bet you can ebay the mini RB for $10 now.

Surprisingly not. I've been looking for one for a while, it's really unusual to find one for less than 20 quid. I can at least recover the costs by selling my hb version and save my back, but they're still really popular.

Dark Vengence Dark Angels are super cheap though. When I have time to paint I might pick some up, can easily get a decent sized army for under £100, though probably need to buy a LR and an IC.

Due to the above inflation price hikes, I haven't bought directly from GW in many years - I went on the site recently and was agog (yes agog!) at £23 for ten Space Marines, oh or a mere £15.50 for a Combat Squad of 5. I remember £12 for 20 Catachan Jungle Fighters.

Now really all this moaning has a bit of "I remember when all of this was fields" to it but it still alienates me. I currently am trying to slip back into the hobby but the prices are making it hard for me to embrace GW - I certainly want to, having long been a fan of the setting but really the prices make me sad.

So I guess my personal answer is it priced me out of GW stores a long time ago even if I'm ambivalent in general.

I can't get anyone to start playing because of the prices. Unreasonable price hikes, secrets, lies, and all around violation of 'Wheaton's First Law,' has turned me off to their products.

No doubt the money I have spent over the years has sent several of their children to college, but they don't act as though they really want me as their customer anymore.

As of today I know one person that has bought the Warhammer rulebook and the Dwarfs Army book because she has an army for Kings of War, might as well use it for two games.... The cheaper models from another company has gotten somebody to play a Games Workshop game....

The Auld Grump

Yeah. For the aforementioned reasons, I'm jumping ship to infinity. It's startup cost is a fraction of what I'd have to pay for warhammer army. The system is engaging, and it seems they treat their community and players well. (The rules for the game are free!) CB actually makes me want to support them.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
A brief review/comparison of two comparable minis
Necron Lord, Games Workshop
Kit type: Monopose Infantry model (HQ/Hero)
Material: Resin (aka Finecast), model felt extremely flimsy, very worried to work with
Complexity: Minimal, three parts
Flash/Mold lines: Heavy mold lines, ridiculous amounts of flash. Most of assembly time is stripping the flash very very carefully.
Conversion potential: Low, without excessive work/delicacy, did manage a small weapons conversion but it felt very touch and go.
Note: Model is very weak, war staff snapped off during assembly even with best efforts for delicacy (and I've assembled 2k worth of Imperial Guard), slot attachment for the base came lose from the lord's foot as I was inserting it into the infantry base
Over all impression of quality: Poor

Hauptmann Ada, Eisenkern (Iron Core), Dreamforge Games
Kit type: Monopose Infantry model (HQ/Hero)
Material: Injection molded plastic, nice and sturdy feel to materials
Complexity: Some very small pieces, assemble and de sprue with caution or you will lose your mind (oh groin armor where are't thou?) it also took me a minute to figure out where the rifle butt stock went...
Flash/Mold lines: No flash, minimal mold lines
Conversion potential: High, model feels solid and has incredible detail
Over all impression of quality: High

Totally irrelevant.

And Dreamforge would do well to stop people like you from damaging their brand with posts like this.

 marielle wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
A brief review/comparison of two comparable minis
Necron Lord, Games Workshop
Kit type: Monopose Infantry model (HQ/Hero)
Material: Resin (aka Finecast), model felt extremely flimsy, very worried to work with
Complexity: Minimal, three parts
Flash/Mold lines: Heavy mold lines, ridiculous amounts of flash. Most of assembly time is stripping the flash very very carefully.
Conversion potential: Low, without excessive work/delicacy, did manage a small weapons conversion but it felt very touch and go.
Note: Model is very weak, war staff snapped off during assembly even with best efforts for delicacy (and I've assembled 2k worth of Imperial Guard), slot attachment for the base came lose from the lord's foot as I was inserting it into the infantry base
Over all impression of quality: Poor

Hauptmann Ada, Eisenkern (Iron Core), Dreamforge Games
Kit type: Monopose Infantry model (HQ/Hero)
Material: Injection molded plastic, nice and sturdy feel to materials
Complexity: Some very small pieces, assemble and de sprue with caution or you will lose your mind (oh groin armor where are't thou?) it also took me a minute to figure out where the rifle butt stock went...
Flash/Mold lines: No flash, minimal mold lines
Conversion potential: High, model feels solid and has incredible detail
Over all impression of quality: High

Totally irrelevant.

And Dreamforge would do well to stop people like you from damaging their brand with posts like this.

How is pointing out that GW is finally losing their last bastion of superiority (injection molded plastics) to competitors irrelevant?

As the proud owner of my own Ada and Shadowkesh LE miniatures, I can attest that KM, if anything, understates the case: Ada is a wonderful miniature and easily the equal of any of GW's single sprue character miniatures. However, I would make that comparison, not compare to finecast, which is... well, finecast isn't exactly setting the world on fire.

As was mentioned earlier, the fact is that GW, which once stood atop the injection molded figure market like a colossus, unrivaled and alone, must now contend with the entry of other makers which are a) cheaper in price per unit, and b) arguably of superior design.

 marielle wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
A brief review/comparison of two comparable minis
Necron Lord, Games Workshop
Kit type: Monopose Infantry model (HQ/Hero)
Material: Resin (aka Finecast), model felt extremely flimsy, very worried to work with
Complexity: Minimal, three parts
Flash/Mold lines: Heavy mold lines, ridiculous amounts of flash. Most of assembly time is stripping the flash very very carefully.
Conversion potential: Low, without excessive work/delicacy, did manage a small weapons conversion but it felt very touch and go.
Note: Model is very weak, war staff snapped off during assembly even with best efforts for delicacy (and I've assembled 2k worth of Imperial Guard), slot attachment for the base came lose from the lord's foot as I was inserting it into the infantry base
Over all impression of quality: Poor

Hauptmann Ada, Eisenkern (Iron Core), Dreamforge Games
Kit type: Monopose Infantry model (HQ/Hero)
Material: Injection molded plastic, nice and sturdy feel to materials
Complexity: Some very small pieces, assemble and de sprue with caution or you will lose your mind (oh groin armor where are't thou?) it also took me a minute to figure out where the rifle butt stock went...
Flash/Mold lines: No flash, minimal mold lines
Conversion potential: High, model feels solid and has incredible detail
Over all impression of quality: High

Totally irrelevant.

And Dreamforge would do well to stop people like you from damaging their brand with posts like this.

And you would do well to treat your fellow forum posters better and less snippy.

 marielle wrote:


And Dreamforge would do well to stop people like you from damaging their brand with posts like this.

Yeah, companies should stop people from talking about their products, especially when comparing them favorably to a competitor's. (even if KM's post was sort of but not even really off topic. Actually, it wasn't off topic at all.)

 Jape wrote:
Due to the above inflation price hikes, I haven't bought directly from GW in many years - I went on the site recently and was agog (yes agog!) at £23 for ten Space Marines, oh or a mere £15.50 for a Combat Squad of 5. I remember £12 for 20 Catachan Jungle Fighters.

Now really all this moaning has a bit of "I remember when all of this was fields" to it but it still alienates me. I currently am trying to slip back into the hobby but the prices are making it hard for me to embrace GW - I certainly want to, having long been a fan of the setting but really the prices make me sad.

So I guess my personal answer is it priced me out of GW stores a long time ago even if I'm ambivalent in general.

I'm surprised you haven't died of starvation if you don't buy stuff because of above inflation price rises.

It's 2 or 3 years ago that Tesco was selling bread at 28p a loaf - now it's @ 50p - inflation has been 'officially' under 3%.

Or perhaps you adhere to the economics of burgers remaining the same price only they now contain 20% more horsemeat.

It's you're money, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but I remember when 'those were fields' - and the idiots that bought the houses and expected the government to bail them out when they couldn't pay the mortgage on the houses built on the fields - and £12 could get me half an army 15mm Minifigs Romans. Heck! I remember when you got 12 Blackjacks for a penny. In fact I recall when the Beano was 2p, what is it now? £2.50?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RatBot wrote:

 marielle wrote:


And Dreamforge would do well to stop people like you from damaging their brand with posts like this.

Yeah, companies should stop people from talking about their products, especially when comparing them favorably to a competitor's. (even if KM's post was sort of but not even really off topic.)

Yeah they should when they are vague on they shipping costs, and looking to sell to markets that react badly to negative advertising of the yah-boo-sucks kind - that is assuming Dreamcast are looking beyond cashing in on the Kickstarter, though why would they given the market in rights for defunct games - though that is another topic )for which no doubt you have a humerous giff)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Surtur wrote:

 marielle wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
A brief review/comparison of two comparable minis
Necron Lord, Games Workshop
Kit type: Monopose Infantry model (HQ/Hero)
Material: Resin (aka Finecast), model felt extremely flimsy, very worried to work with
Complexity: Minimal, three parts
Flash/Mold lines: Heavy mold lines, ridiculous amounts of flash. Most of assembly time is stripping the flash very very carefully.
Conversion potential: Low, without excessive work/delicacy, did manage a small weapons conversion but it felt very touch and go.
Note: Model is very weak, war staff snapped off during assembly even with best efforts for delicacy (and I've assembled 2k worth of Imperial Guard), slot attachment for the base came lose from the lord's foot as I was inserting it into the infantry base
Over all impression of quality: Poor

Hauptmann Ada, Eisenkern (Iron Core), Dreamforge Games
Kit type: Monopose Infantry model (HQ/Hero)
Material: Injection molded plastic, nice and sturdy feel to materials
Complexity: Some very small pieces, assemble and de sprue with caution or you will lose your mind (oh groin armor where are't thou?) it also took me a minute to figure out where the rifle butt stock went...
Flash/Mold lines: No flash, minimal mold lines
Conversion potential: High, model feels solid and has incredible detail
Over all impression of quality: High

Totally irrelevant.

And Dreamforge would do well to stop people like you from damaging their brand with posts like this.

And you would do well to treat your fellow forum posters better and less snippy.

hark at her.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 marielle wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
A brief review/comparison of two comparable minis
Necron Lord, Games Workshop
Kit type: Monopose Infantry model (HQ/Hero)
Material: Resin (aka Finecast), model felt extremely flimsy, very worried to work with
Complexity: Minimal, three parts
Flash/Mold lines: Heavy mold lines, ridiculous amounts of flash. Most of assembly time is stripping the flash very very carefully.
Conversion potential: Low, without excessive work/delicacy, did manage a small weapons conversion but it felt very touch and go.
Note: Model is very weak, war staff snapped off during assembly even with best efforts for delicacy (and I've assembled 2k worth of Imperial Guard), slot attachment for the base came lose from the lord's foot as I was inserting it into the infantry base
Over all impression of quality: Poor

Hauptmann Ada, Eisenkern (Iron Core), Dreamforge Games
Kit type: Monopose Infantry model (HQ/Hero)
Material: Injection molded plastic, nice and sturdy feel to materials
Complexity: Some very small pieces, assemble and de sprue with caution or you will lose your mind (oh groin armor where are't thou?) it also took me a minute to figure out where the rifle butt stock went...
Flash/Mold lines: No flash, minimal mold lines
Conversion potential: High, model feels solid and has incredible detail
Over all impression of quality: High

Totally irrelevant.

And Dreamforge would do well to stop people like you from damaging their brand with posts like this.

How is pointing out that GW is finally losing their last bastion of superiority (injection molded plastics) to competitors irrelevant?

As the proud owner of my own Ada and Shadowkesh LE miniatures, I can attest that KM, if anything, understates the case: Ada is a wonderful miniature and easily the equal of any of GW's single sprue character miniatures. However, I would make that comparison, not compare to finecast, which is... well, finecast isn't exactly setting the world on fire.

As was mentioned earlier, the fact is that GW, which once stood atop the injection molded figure market like a colossus, unrivaled and alone, must now contend with the entry of other makers which are a) cheaper in price per unit, and b) arguably of superior design.

Ask yourself this question.

Why did GW move to shut down the UK distributors and not the US ones (when the currency rate favoured US exporters back in 2007/08)?

The answer is because the US distributors never saw the market.

Having been the Dreamforge website, I am not told what the shipping cost is, I am not offered a simple currency conversion, they could be the most wonderful models and the best game rules ever, but the fact is that I'm not buying them because they are targeted at a very limited market and are in danger of going the same way as all American wargames - difficult to find opponents, obsessive proponents, and a negative attitude to promotion.

Let the product speak for itself - it doesn't need to attack other products.

 marielle wrote:

 RatBot wrote:

 marielle wrote:


And Dreamforge would do well to stop people like you from damaging their brand with posts like this.

Yeah, companies should stop people from talking about their products, especially when comparing them favorably to a competitor's. (even if KM's post was sort of but not even really off topic.)

Yeah they should when they are vague on they shipping costs, and looking to sell to markets that react badly to negative advertising of the yah-boo-sucks kind - that is assuming Dreamcast are looking beyond cashing in on the Kickstarter, though why would they given the market in rights for defunct games - though that is another topic )for which no doubt you have a humerous giff)

What? Seriously, what are you trying to say here? You seem to have confused DreamForge Games with... Sega Dreamcast? What defunct games are you talking about?

Why would anyone bring up shipping costs in a product comparison when you can buy the product from the same major retailers?

KM's review seems about as unbiased as one can get: the simple fact is, excluding purely aesthetic evaluations, the quality of DFG kits is un-impugnable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 marielle wrote:
...

Ask yourself this question.

Why did GW move to shut down the UK distributors and not the US ones (when the currency rate favoured US exporters back in 2007/08)?

The answer is because the US distributors never saw the market.

Having been the Dreamforge website, I am not told what the shipping cost is, I am not offered a simple currency conversion, they could be the most wonderful models and the best game rules ever, but the fact is that I'm not buying them because they are targeted at a very limited market and are in danger of going the same way as all American wargames - difficult to find opponents, obsessive proponents, and a negative attitude to promotion.

Let the product speak for itself - it doesn't need to attack other products.

Seriously, this is the crux of your argument? The website of the manufacturer doesn't list shipping costs? You also seem to have missed the bit where there are UK based retailers offering pre-orders.

Also, "in danger of going the same way as all American wargames"? Yeah, Privateer Press and Wyrd, they're US companies you know...

markets that react badly to negative advertising of the yah-boo-sucks kind

Kind of like the GW white knights who take any little criticism of GW as a great affront to their personal honour?

Dreamcast are looking beyond cashing in on the Kickstarter, though why would they given the market in rights for defunct games - though that is another topic )for which no doubt you have a humerous giff)

hark at her.

Uh.... what? There's only one thing in here that's not total gibberish, the bit about the "humerous giff", but I'm not a complete donkey-cave so I won't post one.

...
Ask yourself this question.
Why did GW move to shut down the UK distributors and not the US ones (when the currency rate favoured US exporters back in 2007/08)?
The answer is because the US distributors never saw the market.

...aaaand?

Having been the Dreamforge website, I am not told what the shipping cost is, I am not offered a simple currency conversion

There's no currency converter on ForgeWorld's website (though they do at least give shipping prices, I'll give them that). How shall I ever find out how much that Legion Mk II Assault Squad costs in US Dollars!? http://bit.ly/YYVyj6
And it does work in reverse. http://bit.ly/YYVDU7

they could be the most wonderful models and the best game rules ever, but the fact is that I'm not buying them because they are targeted at a very limited market and are in danger of going the same way as all American wargames - difficult to find opponents, obsessive proponents, and a negative attitude to promotion.

Maybe in the UK, but in the US, non-GW games (American and from other countries) are doing just fine, thanks. In fact, Warmachine is the second-most popular tabletop wargame in the US, more popular than WHFB.

Let the product speak for itself - it doesn't need to attack other products.

No one should ever compare similar products ever. Gotcha.