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 Sasori wrote:
The Chaos Daemon Kits were priced fairly decently. Nothing crazy there. Of course, we didn't get any big monsters either.

I would not consider $30 for a single plastic miniature that's not very different from a standard infantry model to be 'decently priced.'

 Fafnir wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
The Chaos Daemon Kits were priced fairly decently. Nothing crazy there. Of course, we didn't get any big monsters either.

I would not consider $30 for a single plastic miniature that's not very different from a standard infantry model to be 'decently priced.'

Yeah, that's only 3 times what many companies are charging for a single metal model. Totes reasonable.

 Surtur wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
The Chaos Daemon Kits were priced fairly decently. Nothing crazy there. Of course, we didn't get any big monsters either.

I would not consider $30 for a single plastic miniature that's not very different from a standard infantry model to be 'decently priced.'

Yeah, that's only 3 times what many companies are charging for a single metal model. Totes reasonable.

Sadly by GW standards that actually is.

If we're talking reasonable, I picked up some of these guys the other day from EM4 miniatures. They are £2.55 for a squad of 5 guys with a selection of weapons.


Admittedly they are a little bit 80s, but still quite a bargain. I ended up buying 6 squads just to mess about with. Even with postage the whole lot cost me less than a tac squad.

The funny thing is... I didn't even want them that badly. If they had been £8 a box I probably would have passed them up, and not bought anything. But because they were great value I ended spending £20. I probably would have spent a lot more if there had been a bit more variety: maybe some little vehicles or HQs to go with them.

Contrast that with GW. GW have stuff that I do really really want. For example the Death Wing Command/Knights box. I would have loved to pick one of those up. I probably would have been willing to pay as much as £20 for that kit (and GW would have made a big profit on that sale). But for friggin £35 they can stick it up their @#% keep it.

I'm SURE that can't be good business. If GW did value even half as good as EM4, I think I would buy everything they make! I'd have like 20,000 points worth of every army, every kit, every book. Definitely would have picked up Dreadfleet. And a T-Shirt that say's I'm GW's bitch. I would spend thousands there! ... However as it stands now: in about the last 2 years, I've spent a grand total of £0 at GW. I don't even buy their paint any more just on principle. That's thousands of pounds of sales they are missing out on from me, people like me, and probably every other war-gamer who doesn't already have an apocalypse sized army in every colour (you know you would). There is no way the few people who are still willing to tentatively shell out £45 for a Land Raider (maybe once or twice a year), are covering that, even with bigger profit margins. I don't believe it.

 Smacks wrote:
...snip...

There is no way the few people who are still willing to tentatively shell out £45 for a Land Raider (maybe once or twice a year), are covering that, even with bigger profit margins. I don't believe it.

I believe you are correct here. I also believe GW has completely lost it with pricing, even among their own product lines.

When I look at an Ogre Kingdoms named character priced at $40 US retail and the new named troll from WoC costing $58, I actually had to laugh at the absurdity. I mean almost 50% more in price than another 40mm named character model?

Then, let's take the Slaughterbeast at $85, then compare it to the Ogre Kingdoms Thundertusk at $57.75. Same size and detail models, both made for 8th edition Warhammer, yet the Chaos one is almost 70% more than a comparable model.

Finally, look at the new Troops Forsaken at $50 for 10 models. Right next to it, on GWs website is a box of 12 Chaos Warriors, comparable in detail and sprues, for $35. So $5/model versus $2.92/model? It doesn't make sense whatsoever.

Although, in my area, I see more people choke on the thin (96-pg) $50 army book than anything else. These have actually become a very poor reflection on GW as a whole since they are actually stopping people from even getting to looking at model pricing. $125 to get started in a model game ($75 rules+$50 army book) without a single model is just plain stupidity. Just think for a moment if you are a new player wanting to get into Empire today. $125 for rules and army book plus another $130 for 360 points worth of starting the army (1 general and 40 state troops). That is $250 just to get started. Warmahordes will cost about $65 to get started ($25 rules+$40 starter box). For the same $250, I can get rules and an ENTIRE ARMY for just about any historical game. How can anyone argue that GW pricing isn't insane at any level in comparison to what else is in the market today? How can anyone think new players will spend $250 for the bare minimum to get started when that is four time more than another fantasy game or can build the entire army in a historical game?

Before anyone jumps in on the $100 Island of Blood, think about that set for a minute. First, it is Skaven and High Elves. Not the two most popular armies - Empire and Chaos would have been smarter. Secondly, those two armies don't even have an eighth edition army book yet. No, it appears to be a suckers box to get people into the game instead of a legitimate start in the hobby.

When I look at almost any historical war game and can build an infantry unit of 50 models for about $30-$40 but the same size unit in Warhammer will cost me $150 (and these are GWs cheap models) minimum - five times the going market price just doesn't cut it. GWs quality is NOT five times better than other games on the market, contrary to what their senior management may think. No wonder why their has been a major surge in historical gaming in the last five years.

I have a funny feeling that the new WoC models are a reflection of the forth coming price increases. Your point about getting those that still play to cover those that are leaving is causing GW to accelerate price increases to cover this spread. Rather they should be thinking they should lower prices to be more competitive with the market, they continue to raise prices to cover the player losses from their pricing. By July of this year we should see $100 Land Raiders, $50 generals, and $75 terminators. Although the core troops will stay the same in price, they will probably drop from ten models to five models in a box for the same $30. I wish this last line was a joke, but the recent pricing on WoC models is making it appear less so.

Loved those "Space Rangers" EM4 adopted from old Iron Crown, not a bad bunch of troops.

As long as GW has an overabundance of B&M stores to prop up and still show a profit to the stockholders, we will see prices continue to rise.

Think on how much print advertisement in geek-centric magazines they could buy for one year at the same price as the salary (not considering operating costs) of a few managers of the one-man stores. This is a US view, as we don't have the need of their stores here noting that FLGS have carried the product lines for the last thirty years.

Marvel, DC, Geek Magazine, Fine Scale Modeler, Rolling Stone, Revolver (IMHO WHFB and 40k would appeal to the metal-heads), Star Wars Insider,

If they want to keep WD as a house magazine they could defray the cost by accepting ads for Clearasil, Axe, Soap, Shampoo or other products that would a) not detract from their product, b) be of use to their readership, c) allow a wider distribution of WD on supermarket newstands. I shouldn't even have to mention that this would also bring the cost back into the reasonable range of $5.00-$7.00 US. As other magazines are currently about that range. Not to mention that it would also advertise their product to a wider audience and aid in brand recognition. Cast a wide net and you will get the fish that you want.

 Smacks wrote:
If we're talking reasonable, I picked up some of these guys the other day from EM4 miniatures. They are £2.55 for a squad of 5 guys with a selection of weapons.


Admittedly they are a little bit 80s, but still quite a bargain. I ended up buying 6 squads just to mess about with. Even with postage the whole lot cost me less than a tac squad.

The funny thing is... I didn't even want them that badly. If they had been £8 a box I probably would have passed them up, and not bought anything. But because they were great value I ended spending £20. I probably would have spent a lot more if there had been a bit more variety: maybe some little vehicles or HQs to go with them.

Contrast that with GW. GW have stuff that I do really really want. For example the Death Wing Command/Knights box. I would have loved to pick one of those up. I probably would have been willing to pay as much as £20 for that kit (and GW would have made a big profit on that sale). But for friggin £35 they can stick it up their @#% keep it.

I'm SURE that can't be good business. If GW did value even half as good as EM4, I think I would buy everything they make! I'd have like 20,000 points worth of every army, every kit, every book. Definitely would have picked up Dreadfleet. And a T-Shirt that say's I'm GW's bitch. I would spend thousands there! ... However as it stands now: in about the last 2 years, I've spent a grand total of £0 at GW. I don't even buy their paint any more just on principle. That's thousands of pounds of sales they are missing out on from me, people like me, and probably every other war-gamer who doesn't already have an apocalypse sized army in every colour (you know you would). There is no way the few people who are still willing to tentatively shell out £45 for a Land Raider (maybe once or twice a year), are covering that, even with bigger profit margins. I don't believe it.

I have quite a few of these guys from Iron Crown and I liked them a lot. I sub them in for GW SM since I can't afford the real thing...and I refuse to pay that much when I could...I dunno...fix the windshield on my car, detail said car, and wash it for what it would cost to start up an army of plastic and metal...I guess I'd rather have a running car than give my money to a bunch of greedy t%^ts.

Yeah that's where I feel GW has ALWAYS hurt itself the most. I'd have bought one of those DW knights boxes as well, albeit enough bitz to turn it into roughly 13 termies as I've been told you can pull off with that, but with more reasonable pricing I'd have Valkyries, Land Raiders, at least one Bane Blade, more SoB stuff... but when the two land raiders alone, which are albeit large models would run me $75 a piece, I start to get a bit skittish. There's only so much discounters can help that.

 Smacks wrote:
If we're talking reasonable, I picked up some of these guys the other day from EM4 miniatures. They are £2.55 for a squad of 5 guys with a selection of weapons.

I would not have paid what you did for those models. I think they look awful and would pay more for stuff I like than less to have a bunch of garbage clutter up my home. But that's just me.

@xray -- agreed.

I actually quite like those models! I like old school minis, I'd love to have a WFB army made up totally of 3rd edition minis!

I like them too, but I am a sucker for old stuff, which the local GW staff seems not to like as they always tell me the newer one is better when I say to liking older versions or editions

To be fair, I hate my Ragnar, Mephiston, Corbulo, and Tychi models as well. :-)

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
I like them too, but I am a sucker for old stuff, which the local GW staff seems not to like as they always tell me the newer one is better when I say to liking older versions or editions

Don't really get the choice with the SW characters!

No kidding right? I wish they'd have redone Ragnar and Mephiston at least...people actually use them!

My Ragnar, Njal and Ulrik all cost me £5 each when I bought them!

They used to base their prices on pts value as well, like when i last played way back with 3rd edition the ork battleforce was huge compared to the marine one. Now, example, Ogryns are $45 nz. Why are Ogryns $45? If i want to make an Orgyn squad it will cost me $220. For $200 I can get a space marine battleforce of 600 pts. And it would mess those Ogryns up. That makes no sense. Even the ork force comes with sod all now. I really like the 40k universe, like i did back in 3rd ed high school days, and since then ive read heaps of the books and enjoy them immensely, but GW seems to be killing itself off. And this is me talking, who unitl recently joining dakka had no idea GW even had any competition.

$$ wise they still don't. Not really.

It's funny, because that's exactly how GW corporate sees it too!

How can you claim 'no competition'? If I walk into a store now, I not only see GW kits, but Mantic's or Warlord's box sets. I see racks of blisters for Warmachine, or Infinity. All of these products are competing for my money, and to be honest, GW isn't trying very hard.

The whole "well there are no companies anywhere near them in terms of revenue, so therefore no competition" is a complete sham.

Of course they do. Their shareholders are concerned about profits. If they're growing, they're happy.

Just because there are other options doesn't mean those options are hurting GWs bottom line. Once they do, well see change. Until them, no, they don't really have any competitors that are stealing any real market share, at least not that we can prove.

I mean, everyone's anecdotal evidence is great, but it proves absolutely nothing.

While there are other companies competing with GW, they're still not at GW level, let alone surpassing them, in terms of sales. Even with GW having an monkey from an asylum setting prices.

They are, however, very slowly bleeding GW's sales. You can see it in every financial report, where GW talks about how their profits are relatively stable, slightly above previous years. That's not growth - that's stagnation. Prices rice, and profits remain stable, shows people are buying less.

However, it's a bit hard to cry dooooom. There's a lot we don't know as well. While sales have dropped, and other games are growing, it's obvious people are buying into new games. That doesn't mean people are getting rid of their GW stuff - not everyone lives in America where, by law, you are only allowed to play one game.

For example, what prices might have done is made a lot of people stick to single armies. Rather than have 3-4, and buy all year round to expand them, people might be falling back to a single GW army, and only expand them around codex releases. Again, this is an assumption, just like pretty much any theory, good or bad, around GW. Because aside from knowing sales are falling, that's all we know. We don't even know if people who have stopped buying into GW in fact are the people buying into other games.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
The Chaos Daemon Kits were priced fairly decently. Nothing crazy there. Of course, we didn't get any big monsters either.

I would not consider $30 for a single plastic miniature that's not very different from a standard infantry model to be 'decently priced.'

Reasonably priced to my income level, may not be the same as yours.

 Sasori wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
The Chaos Daemon Kits were priced fairly decently. Nothing crazy there. Of course, we didn't get any big monsters either.

I would not consider $30 for a single plastic miniature that's not very different from a standard infantry model to be 'decently priced.'

Reasonably priced to my income level, may not be the same as yours.

There is a world of difference between being able to afford something, and being reasonably priced. I happen to be in a position where I can afford to do a whole lot - but IMO, GW is no longer reasonably priced for what you get...and they haven't been for awhile.

It would be like going into a grocery store to buy a bottle of water. GW's water is $50 per liter. If I were dieing of thirst - I could spend that without batting an eye, however it is an unreasonable price for a bottle of water...whether I can afford it or not is irrelevant.

I'm a pretty impulsive buyer (with regards to all my toys - I have a ludicrous guitar effect pedal collection. And guitar collection for that matter). I recently got back into minis, and bought up a stack of GW stuff. Probably about £700 worth. Then I started realising that there was more than GW out there these days. Kind of wish I'd picked up war machine and a couple of other starters.

Hey ho. There's always next month. Don't think I'll be nearly as rash with GW now though.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
The Chaos Daemon Kits were priced fairly decently. Nothing crazy there. Of course, we didn't get any big monsters either.

I would not consider $30 for a single plastic miniature that's not very different from a standard infantry model to be 'decently priced.'

Reasonably priced to my income level, may not be the same as yours.

There is a world of difference between being able to afford something, and being reasonably priced. I happen to be in a position where I can afford to do a whole lot - but IMO, GW is no longer reasonably priced for what you get...and they haven't been for awhile.

It would be like going into a grocery store to buy a bottle of water. GW's water is $50 per liter. If I were dieing of thirst - I could spend that without batting an eye, however it is an unreasonable price for a bottle of water...whether I can afford it or not is irrelevant.

As this whole thread has demonstrated, reasonably priced is just an opinion.
Price. Aesthetics. Customer Service. Everyone has their own expectations often influenced by experiences. And as also demonstrated by this thread you can't change someones opinion on an internet forum.

Even beyond the other game systems like Warmachine - there are a host of independent companies out there who make great miniatures which can be used with any rules you like. The only time you would really need to limit yourself is if you plan on gaming in GW stores (now that they pretty much dropped their tournaments...).

Companies like Heresy, Hasslefree, Black Hat, Copplestone, Olley's Armies...(the list goes on ad infinitum) Not to mention the companies who are a bit bigger, like Reaper (for the fantasy crowd...though their sci-fi line is expanding fast) and old school stuff from Iron Wind Metals (or Ral Partha Europe on your side of the pond), EM-4, Mega Miniatures...(another very long list). And some of the less popular game systems like RAFM's USX, Reaper's Warlord, Brushfire, Dark Age, Urban War, Freebooter's Fate... And of course all the rules which exist that are independent of miniatures.

There is a whole lot out there.

We keep forgetting one big thing : what can we easily find games for in our local meta.

 Sasori wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
The Chaos Daemon Kits were priced fairly decently. Nothing crazy there. Of course, we didn't get any big monsters either.

I would not consider $30 for a single plastic miniature that's not very different from a standard infantry model to be 'decently priced.'

Reasonably priced to my income level, may not be the same as yours.

It's not a matter of being able to afford it. It's being able to not feel like a swindled idiot every time you purchase one of their products.

 cincydooley wrote:
We keep forgetting one big thing : what can we easily find games for in our local meta.

What ever you like...

Never really understood that position, it is like people know no one who is willing to play a new game with them. From when I was a kid, through my time in the service, as a computer contractor and now in my somewhat more settled older age...I have never had a problem getting people to try new games and even starting new armies if we find we like those rule sets. Buy a copy of the rules, read through them. If they seem like they would be fun - hand them off to a gamer friend and see if they want to play. Set aside an afternoon or night to play a quick short game or two using miniatures you already have. Very little that might be lost. If you like them - you can look at getting the specific miniatures (if they exist) or putting together purpose built armies.

As this whole thread has demonstrated, reasonably priced is just an opinion.

Price. Aesthetics. Customer Service. Everyone has their own expectations often influenced by experiences. And as also demonstrated by this thread you can't change someones opinion on an internet forum.

To a point, however the argument that I have a pile of money...so it is reasonably priced isn't valid. You might think they are reasonably priced for any number of different reasons, but just having a pile of money doesn't justify things being a higher price than something else that is effectively identical.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
We keep forgetting one big thing : what can we easily find games for in our local meta.

What ever you like...

Never really understood that position, it is like people know no one who is willing to play a new game with them. From when I was a kid, through my time in the service, as a computer contractor and now in my somewhat more settled older age...I have never had a problem getting people to try new games and even starting new armies if we find we like those rule sets. Buy a copy of the rules, read through them. If they seem like they would be fun - hand them off to a gamer friend and see if they want to play. Set aside an afternoon or night to play a quick short game or two using miniatures you already have. Very little that might be lost. If you like them - you can look at getting the specific miniatures (if they exist) or putting together purpose built armies.

My gaming group has recently had a problem with this.
After the embargo to Australia, a huge number of players ragequit and started other games that they liked more. My club went from having 8 tables of 40k and 2 of Fantasy, to 1 40k 1 FB, 2 Warmahordes, 2 Malifaux, 1 Dystopian Wars, 1 Dust, 2 board games. But there wasn't a concerted effort to move towards any particular game system - people just bought what they wanted and showed up at the club with a variety of armies looking to play. No system reached the critical mass that you could show up with an army and always find an opponent. After about 6 months of this, and with the release of 6th edition 40k, we nearly universally went back to 40k.

I've tried to get people into other games, I play Dust, Warmachine, Dystopian Wars, and I've run about 10 demo games for each one. But you need to convince not just one or two, but about 6-10 people to get a decent community going. Which can be difficult..., especially without support from the single store in the area.
40k still reigns supreme because it has the largest player base. Warmachine is pretty much there in other clubs in the city, but not at mine. The various Spartan games, Malifaux, Infinity - still nowhere near there unfortunately.