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Riquende wrote:
Snowboarding was possibly a bad example. Insert supercar collecting, or something else crazily expensive.

And people still buy them.

I find comparing 40K to Scalextric or action figure collecting is better than comparing it to Warmachine or Infinity. Why? Because at present I wouldn't be buying Warmachine or Infinity (no other players at my club), but I might consider Action Figures or Scalextic. So I look at value for money. Action Figures would just sit on the shelf and it's rare I get to play any slot cars nowadays, but I do play 40K. I use my 40K models and enjoy the time modelling and painting. So it is a very valid argument for value for money comparing to non-miniature products.

Would I prefer GW prices to be lower? Of course I would.
But the question was "Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?"
The answer is obviously no. It's just priced out those who do not value their product and prefer other games. But those are mostly customers they would lose to other games anyway.

GW can be as expensive as it wants, because there aren't any other wargaming companies out there.

 angel of ecstasy wrote:
GW can be as expensive as it wants, because there aren't any other wargaming companies out there.

Incorrect. There are quite a few other ones out there, they just aren't even close to competing with GW.

I think it was a joke.

 Ugavine wrote:

Riquende wrote:
Snowboarding was possibly a bad example. Insert supercar collecting, or something else crazily expensive.

And people still buy them.

And round and round we go....

Of course people buy them, they see value in them. It's all personal, down to the individual. I don't know anymore if this really needs explaining or if certain posters are just being intentionally obtuse. We cannot, as a group, define what is expensive/cheap/valuable/worthless to an objective scale, merely note which products/services cost more or less than others, and whether we are prepared to pay extra for what we, personally, perceive as a 'better' product.

I find comparing 40K to Scalextric or action figure collecting is better than comparing it to Warmachine or Infinity...

Your own criteria is irrelevant for the topic at hand, no matter how much sense it makes to you (and to be honest, it makes sense to me as well when I'm deciding what to do with my own money). For the purposes of this discussion of whether GW are pricing themselves out of the wargaming hobby (which is what this topic is, regardless of how the thread title is worded) it's of no real interest.

But then what's this?

...The answer is obviously no. It's just priced out those who do not value their product

Exactly! The thing is, there's an ever increasing number of those people. We've having a discussion as to why that might be. Care to join in?
(except I don't necessarily agree the people prefer other games entirely, just that they feel they get more out of what they put in to them)

Double post, sorry.

Riquende wrote:
We cannot, as a group, define what is expensive/cheap/valuable/worthless to an objective scale, merely note which products/services cost more or less than others, and whether we are prepared to pay extra for what we, personally, perceive as a 'better' product.

I don't think 'price' is a completely subjective notion. We can get some idea about the relative value of things by looking at production and labour costs, which in some sense will be grounded in a 'cost of living' which can be translated back into real things like food. The numbers can change (as they already do across currencies) but the value can still be measured somewhat objectively by looking at the cost of keeping everyone who contributes to the economy alive in terms of food etc...

In many cases competition probably forces this number down to a relatively accurate value. Companies will find the cheapest materials, have them put together by a sweat shop in China, and transported back as cheaply as they can. At some point you can legitimately say "this product can't be produced any cheaper". That gives us an objective basis for how much things cost (roughly) relative to each other.

NASA space missions for example cost a lot, but they are probably budgeted quite tightly. I'm sure NASA does everything it can to keep costs down. So even though they cost a lot, they are probably quite good value if your hobby is exploring space. Super cars... I have no idea how much they cost to make, but I have heard that companies like Ferrari hardly turn a profit, and make most of their money from selling hats and t-shirts (at a huge mark up of course).

We don't know how much it costs GW to produce a box of Space Marines, but if em4 can sell space rangers for £2.55 a box, then you can bet a box of marines is less than £2 to produce.

My point is: if you could buy everything at cost price, you would probably find that a lot of so called 'expensive' hobbies (like collecting super cars), would still be insanely expensive. However GW should be very cheap. I bet you could throw a 2000 point army together for about £25. And that is why it is expensive.

To put plastic prices in perspective: http://www.plasticsnews.com/resin/commodity-thermoplastics/current-pricing

Lists price of plastic per pound in US cents. Averages around a dollar per pound.

And for some historical plastic perspective: http://www.theplasticsexchange.com/

While I'm not sure which plastic GW or other wargaming model producers use, but it cannot be severely different in price. Your average kit weighs maybe 1-2lbs of plastic, so you're only looking at maybe $1-$2 of raw materials. That's a considerable mark up on many products that have already eaten their R&D costs like guardsmen and tac marines and then they get price hikes. It's hard to stomach with smile on your face.

 Smacks wrote:

Riquende wrote:
Snowboarding was possibly a bad example. Insert supercar collecting, or something else crazily expensive.

"GW: not quite as expensive as collecting super cars"

Well here is a fallacy to that comment. I recently sold some of my cars. 65 Chevy Nova SS. 67 Camero. 65 Ford Galaxy 500. Made a very nice profit from the sales after spending the time over the years and effort in rebuilding them.

I really chuckle to here some people make their comments about comparing this expensive hobby to other types of expensive hobbies. Apples to Oranges. Expense to Profit.

Now if you are comparing the current "super cars" which most of them have a lousy depreciation value after 10 years then yes 40K models depreciate as lousy as those.

 Surtur wrote:
To put plastic prices in perspective: http://www.plasticsnews.com/resin/commodity-thermoplastics/current-pricing

Lists price of plastic per pound in US cents. Averages around a dollar per pound.

And for some historical plastic perspective: http://www.theplasticsexchange.com/

While I'm not sure which plastic GW or other wargaming model producers use, but it cannot be severely different in price. Your average kit weighs maybe 1-2lbs of plastic, so you're only looking at maybe $1-$2 of raw materials. That's a considerable mark up on many products that have already eaten their R&D costs like guardsmen and tac marines and then they get price hikes. It's hard to stomach with smile on your face.

Gotta factor in stuff like expensive cars, Kirby's daily meals, pools filled with golden coins and, on a more serious regard, their stores. GW stores are a HUGE money dump and, imo, a big reason for the huge prices. I could live fine without these, but as we all know, prices would not lower anyway.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
I recently sold some of my cars. 65 Chevy Nova SS. 67 Camero. 65 Ford Galaxy 500. Made a very nice profit from the sales after spending the time over the years and effort in rebuilding them.

That doesn't count. You have to crash them to get your monies worth

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Surtur wrote:
To put plastic prices in perspective: http://www.plasticsnews.com/resin/commodity-thermoplastics/current-pricing

Lists price of plastic per pound in US cents. Averages around a dollar per pound.

And for some historical plastic perspective: http://www.theplasticsexchange.com/

While I'm not sure which plastic GW or other wargaming model producers use, but it cannot be severely different in price. Your average kit weighs maybe 1-2lbs of plastic, so you're only looking at maybe $1-$2 of raw materials. That's a considerable mark up on many products that have already eaten their R&D costs like guardsmen and tac marines and then they get price hikes. It's hard to stomach with smile on your face.

Gotta factor in stuff like expensive cars, Kirby's daily meals, pools filled with golden coins and, on a more serious regard, their stores. GW stores are a HUGE money dump and, imo, a big reason for the huge prices. I could live fine without these, but as we all know, prices would not lower anyway.

That assumes the stores are running at a loss AND they don't feel they get sufficient advertising from them (having a presence and being able to run intro games for prospective customers is a big plus).

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
The sad thing is that I don't think FW is that much more expensive compared to standard GW.

Its not, those forgeworld terminators are actually cheaper then the GW ones, The broadsides are off by about $4 and are far superior.

Ok, I didn't think the difference in price was that negligible! Holy crap!

Jesus I just started looking at the prices

10 Kriegsmen + autocannon £55 - $84 CAN

10 Cadians + heavy weapon box ( with 2 extra weapons you wont use, woooo hoooo) $84 CAN $70 US ($72 CAN) £42 ($64 CAN $63 US)

Tartaros pattern termies - £36 ($55 CAN $54 US)

Normal terminators - $60 CAN $50US ($51 CAN) £28 ($43 CAN $42 US)

FW broadside £30.00 ($46 CAN $45 US)

GW Broadside $47.50 CAN $39.50 US ($40 CAN) £24.50 ($37 CAN, $36 US)

Sure would be nice to know where all these magic increases are coming from, for some reason Im paying more despite the models coming from Memphis not England.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
The sad thing is that I don't think FW is that much more expensive compared to standard GW.

Its not, those forgeworld terminators are actually cheaper then the GW ones, The broadsides are off by about $4 and are far superior.

There is a thread in the News and Rumours area about a new 3 dwarf command set with a Lord, a BSB and a slayer. It is £30. Those 3 model's less detailed (and pretty damn old) GW counterparts are £9.50 for the lord, £11 for the banner and £8.20 for the metal slayer. Were the slayers finecast it would be the same price and if they were all finecast priced at the most recent price level for new models all together they would be £45 (the new heralds are £15 each).

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Sorry to say mate but memphis is being shut down.

Source?

A friend of mine who was employed by GW.

So the Memphis factory is supposedly shutting down

Lets put it this way

According to what I have been told the Memphis Factory is shutting down.

 Smacks wrote:


We don't know how much it costs GW to produce a box of Space Marines, but if em4 can sell space rangers for £2.55 a box, then you can bet a box of marines is less than £2 to produce.

Many years ago staff used to be able to buy metal miniatures at 'weight' cost - presumably the production cost - most of them were in the region of 10-20p when I was at the company. It was a great way for staff to be able to buy all metal armies -outside of the reach of mortals - at a crazy low price.

From what I have heard, the Finecast stuff (even the character models) are less than that. Quite possibly you are talking about a few pence for a single miniature, although of course this is disregarding the other costs involved (initial production, packaging, logistics etc.)

Good post. Really sick of people assuming that material costs are the only expensive of a product.

Yes.. although it highlights how a company such as GW charges so much, when many of their competitors (who have nothing like the distribution networks, savings that come through buying in bulk, or size of production runs) are able to sell at a cheaper price.

And it explains why there have been instances of people going through 6-7 of a single miniature with Finecast, and GW not asking for any of them back. The transport costs of defective goods, labour costs of someone checking them, then selling them again or binning them would cost far more than just producing another.

 Amaya wrote:
Good post. Really sick of people assuming that material costs are the only expensive of a product.

I doubt anybody with half a clue has assumed that. The truth is that the majority of those other costs are so dilute when assigned as a cost per unit they are almost insignificant.

Strong assumption. Do you have any evidence for that?

 Amaya wrote:
Strong assumption. Do you have any evidence for that?

No, but what I do have is a sound knowledge of how businesses work and a reasonable working knowledge of the likely logistical costs etc..

Note we are talking actual costs per unit, with all relevant costs to get a product from design to manufacture to the shelf. If you factor in other business costs not directly related to that, such as retail staff wages or other utilities not related to manufacture then the waters get muddier.

But the actual cost to get a model from the brain of a designer to the shelf in a shop is very small when averaged per unit.

And how many bunkers do they have? With how many employees? Making what, over $30,000 US a year?

 Amaya wrote:
And how many bunkers do they have? With how many employees? Making what, over $30,000 US a year?

None of which are costs attributable to the manufacture of the product. As I clearly stated.

 Amaya wrote:
And how many bunkers do they have? With how many employees? Making what, over $30,000 US a year?

This should only effect the cost of models sold in their stores. Why should I pay more for an item beacuse somebody else gets to go into their store? I have personally never seen a GW store, the nearest one is over 120 miles away from me. I will probably never see Warhammer World - why should I be paying extra per model to fund it?

 Amaya wrote:
And how many bunkers do they have? With how many employees? Making what, over $30,000 US a year?

This should have nothing to do with the overall base price of the product AT ALL.

Let me explain. GW products already carry about 38% margin for stores. Your FLGS only can make money on the margin allotted between buy price and retail price. GW shops should also operate the same way. GW corporate needs the dealer price to cover costs to manufacture/design/distribute whereas the store itself should succeed based on the extra money made between that dealer price and the retail price.

However, I mention that it should have nothing to do with it, but it may in fact not be true. GW stores may not be doing so well, so GW ups the price to create a heavier coverage buffer with the 38% margin to give the stores a better chance of covering operational expense.

One other point I think a lot of people miss in regard to GW pricing. A lot of stores and internet shops specifically, offer 10%-20% discounts on brand new GW products. This usually is a direct result of them, being with the customers directly, knowing that the suggested retail is way to high so they adjust through discounting. This has become all to regular a practice and is a clear indicator that GW pricing is in fact high, otherwise discounting wouldn't be so deep.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
And how many bunkers do they have? With how many employees? Making what, over $30,000 US a year?

None of which are costs attributable to the manufacture of the product. As I clearly stated.

To put it bluntly. Duh.

Those are still expenses that GW has to account for and will contribute to the price of the product.

 Amaya wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
And how many bunkers do they have? With how many employees? Making what, over $30,000 US a year?

None of which are costs attributable to the manufacture of the product. As I clearly stated.

To put it bluntly. Duh.

Those are still expenses that GW has to account for and will contribute to the price of the product.

There's only one duh! here. It ain't me. I'm in another teaching astrophysics to a cat situation, and I'm going to use my experience with Testify (another user with no idea how real world business, accounting or economics work) and pull out now for my own sanity.

It's really cute that you think employee wages/salary won't effect the price of the product and claim to have any understanding of real world business.