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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/07 08:36:04
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Also what is stopping me magnetising the body of my model onto the legs, and pivoting the body only, I'm not moving the base and there fore surely i'm not moving the actual model by doing this, but it would give me a 360 degree LOS?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/07 09:36:33
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Can you find a rule that allows you to pivot the model at the waist to alter your line of sight?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/07 16:44:43
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Eldercaveman wrote:Also what is stopping me magnetising the body of my model onto the legs, and pivoting the body only, I'm not moving the base and there fore surely i'm not moving the actual model by doing this, but it would give me a 360 degree LOS?
/sarcasm
While you are at it, model some eyes on your wraithlord. The standard model has no eyes so wouldn't be able to shoot.
/sarcasm off
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-Mutscheller |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/07 21:03:18
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Whiteshield Conscript Trooper
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I believe you would use random allocation, for determining wound allocation, the rule doesn't state it is specific to shooting attacks, and if we went with the fact that it's under the shooting section, we could also go with the concept, that armour saves are mentioned under close combat but not how they work, how do I "take" an armour save if it is not clarified under said section? And the only mention is to specific ap weapons ignoring certain armour saves.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/07 21:51:56
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
Some Tomb World in some galaxy by that one thing in that one place (or Minnesota for nosy people)
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You would use random allocation to determine the wounds
In just about every faq for previous edition codecies it says that these rukes were writen for a previous edition bla bla bla
And rules may not work bla bla bla
Basically dont be tfg and assume that the rule cant be used because it the game is a permission based game
If it is a permission based game then show me the ruke that states it is a permission based game otherwise you can assume parts of the rules and be rai during areas that are nit as clear as other rules and be raw on other rules that are clear as day such as infantry models move 6"
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"Put your 1st best against you opponents 2nd best, your 2nd best against their 3rd best, and your 3rd best against their 1st best"-Sun Tzu's Art of War
"If your not winning, try a bigger sword! Usually works..."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/07 23:12:11
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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A GumyBear wrote:If it is a permission based game then show me the ruke that states it is a permission based game
That's not how it works.
Any game needs rules that tell you what you can do. Your actions within the game are defined by those rules. If there is no rule that says that you can do something, then that is not something that you can do within the structure of the game.
This is not a concept that is unique to Warhammer 40K. It's how every single game ever made works.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/07 23:45:52
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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insaniak is correct.
The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.
The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 01:15:00
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Fresh-Faced New User
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DeathReaper wrote:
insaniak is correct.
The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.
The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.
What is your take then on the rule to go with? This isn't me being abrasive, I actually want to know since this thread got so far off topic.
1. Doom can wound out of LOS but can't wound. (This would make things like scattering out of LOS also not wound)
2. Doom can't wound out of LOS thus making the codex rule "All Units within 6" be wrong? (Can BRB > Codex) ?
3. This is a situation where the rules don't help us and we need to fall back on "The Most Important Rule" (Which is in the BRB and should never be ignored)
4. ?
I'd like to know how you feel the rules work and how you would play it.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/08 01:32:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 02:03:06
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Happy Imperial Citizen
Canada
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TheSwarmLives wrote: DeathReaper wrote:
insaniak is correct.
The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.
The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.
What is your take then on the rule to go with? This isn't me being abrasive, I actually want to know since this thread got so far off topic.
1. Doom can wound out of LOS but can't wound. (This would make things like scattering out of LOS also not wound)
2. Doom can't wound out of LOS thus making the codex rule "All Units within 6" be wrong? (Can BRB > Codex) ?
3. This is a situation where the rules don't help us and we need to fall back on "The Most Important Rule" (Which is in the BRB and should never be ignored)
4. ?
I'd like to know how you feel the rules work and how you would play it.
I would agree the most important rule may come into play here.
He has a pulse attack which hits all units within 6 inches. Hard to tell how to allocate wounds since it is not a nova, maelstrom shooting attack etc. it is not a blast weapon so hitting units out of LOS does not apply here as you state in point 1 above. So it very well might not be able to wound if out of LOS.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 02:19:24
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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The Hive Mind
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TheSwarmLives wrote: DeathReaper wrote:
insaniak is correct.
The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.
The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.
What is your take then on the rule to go with? This isn't me being abrasive, I actually want to know since this thread got so far off topic.
1. Doom can wound out of LOS but can't wound. (This would make things like scattering out of LOS also not wound)
2. Doom can't wound out of LOS thus making the codex rule "All Units within 6" be wrong? (Can BRB > Codex) ?
3. This is a situation where the rules don't help us and we need to fall back on "The Most Important Rule" (Which is in the BRB and should never be ignored)
4. ?
I'd like to know how you feel the rules work and how you would play it.
#1 is RAW. I play it as ignoring Out Of Sight (as I do for blasts) but if my opponent even twinges I don't argue.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 02:47:47
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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insaniak wrote:Can you find a rule that allows you to pivot the model at the waist to alter your line of sight?
No, but my point is, there is a crap ton of stuff that people do that aren't in the rules, and if you play the rules as strictly permission based, without applying a little common courtesy and sense, it is a very slippery slop you will start on. This isn't aimed at anyone. Just a general point.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 02:56:14
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Eldercaveman wrote:... and if you play the rules as strictly permission based, without applying a little common courtesy and sense, it is a very slippery slop you will start on.
Nobody was suggesting that you should do this, though.
Yes, there are holes int he rules. Discussions like this aren't supposed to imply that people should blindly follow the rules and not alter them as necessary when they come across a situation that the rules don't seem to adequately cover. The purpose of these discussions is to help foster a better understanding of the rules so that people can decide how they want to actually play the game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 03:05:05
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle
Alabama
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insaniak wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Insaniak - because "compromise"
You have no ability to use Spirit Leech to actually cause damage. This seems stupid. So, we compromise and use the shooting rules, including page 16, but allow it to imagine LOS 360 degrees around the model. So anything entirely out of this LOS cannot be wounded, as per page 16. Good compromise, as it more accurately meets, in my opinion, 6th editions concepts.
To summarise - I am NOT saying you cannot use the shooting rules - even though the rules dont actually allow you to use them - just that IF you want to use them, use ALL of them. You dont get to ignore the disadvantages.
Which is fine. But as you are well aware, we prefer that when you are presenting a ' HYWPI' viewpoint or a house rule in a rules discussion, that you make that clear, which you didn't do initially.
So given that, I would agree that your variation is a reasonable one given the current state of the rules, although I fully expect that if GW FAQ it they will allow casualties outside LOS and would have no problem with playing it either way.
So, all that said, if you're using the Shooting rules, why again can't you use Random Allocation? Which gives you example of oddly-allocating abilities?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 03:08:18
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Random allocation for shooting is only for situations where you can't easily determine which models are closest to the shooter. It has nothing to do with whether or not LOS applies.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 03:11:30
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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The idea for random allocation is you cannot determine who is the closest model. For example, TftD you have wound before the Mawloc comes on the table, so you cannot determine who is the closest model. Out course from a strict RAW stance, since the Mawloc is not on the table, every unit hit is out of sight and can't have wounds allocated to it. Dang, there goes my use of a decent MC...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 03:13:27
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle
Alabama
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Happyjew wrote:The idea for random allocation is you cannot determine who is the closest model. For example, TftD you have wound before the Mawloc comes on the table, so you cannot determine who is the closest model. Out course from a strict RAW stance, since the Mawloc is not on the table, every unit hit is out of sight and can't have wounds allocated to it. Dang, there goes my use of a decent MC...
Not only that, but you can never allocate from a Hive Guard's "shooting-from-out-of- LOS" gun if the Hive Guard actually is out of LOS.
6th really kicked Nids between the pockets.
Makes me wonder: Is there a RAW silliness thread for 6th yet?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/08 03:15:59
WH40K
Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 03:28:14
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider
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insaniak wrote:Can you find a rule that allows you to pivot the model at the waist to alter your line of sight?
Are we even allowed to assemble the models? I mean it says we can mount them on the base but I am not seeing anything about actually assembling them. Or what glue I'm allowed to use. Can I drink something while doing these acts!? **HEAD EXPLODE**
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Alone in the warp. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 04:02:00
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Dannyevilguy wrote: insaniak wrote:Can you find a rule that allows you to pivot the model at the waist to alter your line of sight?
Can I drink something while doing these acts!? **HEAD EXPLODE**
That actually has nothing to do with the game being played so the rules, for any game, will not cover actions that have nothing to do with how to play the game...
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 06:10:36
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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On a Canoptek Spyder's Waiting List
Willamette Valley Oregon
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For the sake of ease my shop treats it like a nova/maelstrom power for the purpose of LOS and allocation of woulds. It's an easy solution for an special ability that works on basically the same principle.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 06:59:20
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle
Alabama
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nixti wrote:For the sake of ease my shop treats it like a nova/maelstrom power for the purpose of LOS and allocation of woulds. It's an easy solution for an special ability that works on basically the same principle.
According to nos and others, Nova and Maelstrom powers cannot be allocated either in the aforementioned situation. Both of those powers mention out-of- LOS hits, not wound allocation. Not saying anyone is right or wrong, just saying that the interpretation doesn't really change the debate at hand.
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Death Guard 5100 pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 07:21:19
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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If you actually read the rules as written, and dont assume, then yes - those powers do not work for out of LOS.
Understanding where the rules seem to have an omission, intended or not, is important.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 07:38:29
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle
Alabama
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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Understanding where the rules seem to have an omission, intended or not, is important.
But that is not RAW, that is RAI.
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WH40K
Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 11:21:00
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Of course it is. We've pretty well established by this point that the RAW in this situation is broken. Automatically Appended Next Post: Although it's not so much RAI as simply finding a way to play that makes sense, which isn't actually the same thing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/08 11:22:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/08 17:02:59
Subject: Doom's Spirit Leech Finding Range.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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This was poiinted out in my post, when I said what RAW results in. You know, the bit you didnt quote.
It isnt " RAI" either - it is "RUles as I think they should work, as otherwise you have useless abilities". RAI would presume I knew what the designers intent was, and I dont try to claim that, unless I have actually spoken to them.
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