Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I can put a vet squad with three melta guns in a vendetta for 10 points more, and I can guarantee you they'll do better than Paskuishers at wrecking vehicles, MCs, fliers and just about everything else.

Except they won't do that until turn 2 at the earliest. Sometimes you need things dead NOW, and relying on Vendettas for your only long-range anti-tank is not always a good idea. And that's where the Paskquisher is useful (in the absence of ABG allies), it consistently removes even high-AV tanks from across the table, and it does it starting on turn 1.

Is there a reason you wouldn't want to use Sabre Lascannon Platoforms to accomplish that, instead? Leaving ABGs aside for a moment, a Paskquisher will run about 250 points (with hull lascannon and multi-meltas).

You can get five twin-linked skyfire interceptor lascannons for that cost. While light artillery isn't as durable as an AV14 vehicle, there's four more targets on the board. That's got to count for something.

What are the main gun stats for the LR Conqueror? Can't find em anywhere.

pjcoffey55 wrote:
What are the main gun stats for the LR Conqueror? Can't find em anywhere.

STR 7 AP 4 small blast, heavy 1. IOW, garbage, and the Conqueror doesn't have the Heavy rule so it can't even fire the coax storm bolter at full BS unless it gives up on moving. There's no reason to ever use a Conqueror for anything, I only included it for the sake of completeness.

(Another version of the Conqueror had a STR 8 AP 3 main gun, so it's possible that the current stats are a copy/paste error from the ancient book where it did have STR 7 AP 4 and they'll eventually issue errata to fix the mistake. Of course that would just make it a weak unit, not a good one.)

Corollax wrote:
Is there a reason you wouldn't want to use Sabre Lascannon Platoforms to accomplish that, instead? Leaving ABGs aside for a moment, a Paskquisher will run about 250 points (with hull lascannon and multi-meltas).

You can get five twin-linked skyfire interceptor lascannons for that cost. While light artillery isn't as durable as an AV14 vehicle, there's four more targets on the board. That's got to count for something.

Durability and the prerequisite infantry platoon. The Sabre guns lose firepower faster, and if you don't already have a platoon for them (for example, in a mech vet list) you're spending a minimum of 130 additional points to get them on the table and bringing their efficiency down considerably. And of course if you manage to get the Pasquisher into range to use those multimelta sponsons you're out-shooting the Sabre guns against the kind of targets you take a Pasquisher to deal with.

No, this doesn't mean that the Pasquisher is the better choice overall. It's a tank with an extremely narrow role, and not a good choice outside of that narrow role. But there are reasons to use one.

would you consider camo nets of Pask a must? Im thinking of fielding him solo (Vanq or Exterm) and putting him behind the aegis, so that camo net will give him a hearty cover save!

and if youre wondering "why solo" i usually run 1500-2k lists and i have 5 russes, so i figured id have 2 groups of 2 and pask as AT (my artillery has made me sad lately, so i refuse to run it, in a single game against deathwing, wherein i had no better targets to hit until deepstriking, 2 manticores with 6 direct hits on turn one could not even scratch a landraider)

p.s. i find it funny, that much like Marbos power to infiltrate, he will appear at random in any given IG thread and attempt to throw a demo charge into it!

Pask is a much better upgrade in 6th than 5th, his glances aren't completely wasted now and the pens do much more damage with the right weapons.. He adds precious +1 BS and Crack Shot on something like a Vanquisher which makes it a great tank to take. AP2 weaponry gaining a +1 to the damage chart is very useful with the VBC and LC. Is he expensive? Sure, did he make that corner kicking Vanquisher a hard counter to semi-mobile armor? Yes. Any AV 12+ should watch their asses when they stroll into Pask's field of view.

Pask in a Punisher is really nasty against all MC's except Wratihlords. All MC's are T6 or better, and re-rolls to wound on a volume firing tank against multiple wound models cannot be understated. I have proxied Pask in a Punisher before and slaughtered many Tyranid MC. They cannot resist that many shots.

Sounds like fun on a exterminator but you tend to want to move the auto-cannon one right?

Russ bodies just strike me as too expensive with just the turret and the heavy bolter. It's a very expensive lascannon upgrade too. Something about them doesn't sit right with me. Maybe the ordnance ones feel fine but they don't feel useful enough to be that costly as is and the TLAC is just not worth that much on it's own.

How is a hull lascannon upgrade expensive? It's just as cheap as upgrading an HWS, except it comes on an AV14 frame (and, if said frame includes pask, it's BS4 and S10).

Peregrine wrote:STR 7 AP 4 small blast, heavy 1. IOW, garbage

There was something about them back in the day, though. Like, WAY back in the day, that made them worthwhile, though. I can't remember what it was, though.

It was something like they had a weaker cannon but got to fire it twice, or it was back in the day where you could fire the turret or the hull weapons, but not both, or... something. It didn't USED to be the worst russ tank, but certainly it's not great now.

Peregrine wrote:

Corollax wrote:Is there a reason you wouldn't want to use Sabre Lascannon Platoforms to accomplish that, instead?You can get five twin-linked skyfire interceptor lascannons for that cost.

Durability and the prerequisite infantry platoon. The Sabre guns lose firepower faster, And of course if you manage to get the Pasquisher into range to use those multimelta sponsons you're out-shooting the Sabre guns against the kind of targets you take a Pasquisher to deal with.

Plus the vagaries of forgeworld, of course. Also, you don't have to take multimeltas with a pasquisher, putting the points cost at only 220. If that means you can only afford 4 sabres, that means you're comparing 4 BS3 TL S9 weapons against a BS4 S10 weapon and a BS4 S9+D6 weapon. The two damage profiles aren't that far off (you'd be surprised how much of a difference pask's special abilities make against heavier armor).

I mean, you saw the calculations on page 1 against the HWSs. Comparing sabres to HWSs, you're looking at 3 hits with the sabres compared to 2.5 with the HWSs, which isn't ALL that much of a firepower upgrade.

Of course, they're better against fliers, but they still, as peregrine notes, in the same world as HWSs, especially as far as things like durability are concerned.

Peregrine wrote:It's a tank with an extremely narrow role, and not a good choice outside of that narrow role.

Yeah, certainly the pasquisher won't be winning most versatile russ award.

That said, the role is only as narrow as "vehicles". If your opponent is bringing any of those, pask can be useful. Seems rather likely nowadays that he's going to have at least a couple of targets every game. Plus, he's not exactly BAD against monstrous creatures or terminators either.

 Ailaros wrote:
How is a hull lascannon upgrade expensive? It's just as cheap as upgrading an HWS, except it comes on an AV14 frame (and, if said frame includes pask, it's BS4 and S10).

Yeah, I don't really get this either. The hull LC is a reasonably priced and appealing upgrade, as long as you're taking it on one of the tanks that doesn't have an ordnance main gun. I'd cut them if I really need to save 15 points to bring in a full additional unit, but I don't know why you'd ever complain about it being overpriced.

There was something about them back in the day, though. Like, WAY back in the day, that made them worthwhile, though. I can't remember what it was, though.

Way back in 4th edition you couldn't fire ordnance weapons if the vehicle moved, so the Conqueror's heavy turret weapon let you keep moving and shooting every turn (and the defensive weapon rules let you fire the coax gun and heavy bolters). It was still probably a bad unit since there's not much need to move your 72" range LRBT, but at least there was some kind of point to it. But since 5th edition arrived it's been a solution in need of a problem, and FW still haven't figured out how to make it relevant.

That said, the role is only as narrow as "vehicles". If your opponent is bringing any of those, pask can be useful. Seems rather likely nowadays that he's going to have at least a couple of targets every game. Plus, he's not exactly BAD against monstrous creatures or terminators either.

Well, the role where you can shoot at all is as broad as "vehicles". But the role where it's better than Sabre guns/Vendettas/melta storm troopers/etc is kind of limited. You have to be worried about higher-AV targets (where you need a Vanquisher and not AC spam), at long range, and that need to die on turn 1 before reserves can arrive. And you can't have the option to take ABG allies, since the HQ Vanquisher and its BS 4 with an instant death blast alternate shot is probably a better choice overall. Those situations definitely exist, but you have to know the Vanquisher is necessary before you should consider including it over more versatile alternatives.

Of course if you're going to take a Vanquisher at all you should probably go ahead and add the Pask upgrade, since the improvement in effectiveness is way more than the cost of Pask. I just question how frequently you'd want to take a Vanquisher in the first place.

While reading this thread, somewhere in the back of my mind I was thinking about a Paskquisher with a hull lascannon, heavy bolter sponsons, and possibly even a pintle-mounted heavy stubber. I know it sounds schizophrenic at first blush, but in the context of an MC-hunter, note that most MCs are toughness 5 or 6, and thus are certainly threatened by re-rollable strength 4 and 5 hits (especially after the 1.296 expected wounds from the primary weapons), and the 36" range isn't nearly as crippling as the multi-meltas. The fact that this loadout can also mulch light infantry out of cover when you run out of monster or vehicle targets can be considered a bonus.

Of course, you are at this point paying Land Raider prices for one tank, which notwithstanding its AV 14 front armor can still die to one lucky shot, but if you were going to spring for a Russ anyhow it can be considered less of a burden.

Paskilator.
195 points, twin linked BS4 lascannon and BS4 hull lascannon.
Both at S10 if he parks.

It's like IG's broadsides. Actually, you'd be better off taking broadsides with shield drones as allies (2 twin linked rail gun shots, and 4 drones with 2+/4++.)


-Matt

generalchaos34 wrote:
(my artillery has made me sad lately, so i refuse to run it, in a single game against deathwing, wherein i had no better targets to hit until deepstriking, 2 manticores with 6 direct hits on turn one could not even scratch a landraider)

This is the fault of poor rolls. Not the unit.

In general, I agree with Peregrine. I'd argue that Pask is so expensive that all his abilities need to be put to good use if he's going to be worth it. Breaking it down into versions,

LRBT: Makes little difference, wounds most MCs on 2s anyway and not that hot against vehicles with AP3
Exterminator: Extra strength is good, but doesn't really need extra accuracy except for sponsons. Good, but could be better.
Vanquisher: Great for the extra accuracy, but the main gun doesn't need extra armor penetration at all. Still a good choice as he turns the tank into a killer.
Eradicator: The tank is crappy to begin with and the BS boost doesn't do much.
Demolisher: Useless. Needs no help with penetration OR BS, must move constantly.
Punisher: Good, but requires caution. Makes good use of BS and re-roll/penetration boost to cover almost every weakness of the main gun and also benefits sponsons. However, not moving with a tank at 24" or less is risky at best, I really wouldn't want to be auto-hit by an MC or nasty grenades (meltabombs, HG) in CC. Pretty expensive.
Executioner: Improves capability against vehicles and MCs, but BS boost isn't really needed. Solid choice for versatility, but also very expensive.

All in all, I'd say there are problems with using him everywhere... If you consider that he's happiest on the more expensive Russes with sponsons, he turns them into monstrous point sinks and putting them on tanks that are supposed to be cheap beats the point most of the time IMO, so I don't field him often. The Exterminator, Vanquisher and Punisher are usually the first choices when I do.

 Hedkrakka wrote:
Exterminator: Extra strength is good, but doesn't really need extra accuracy except for sponsons. Good, but could be better.

Even with TL BS 3 already on the main gun you're still getting a 20% increase in firepower for a 30% increase in cost, and you're also getting significant benefits for the sponsons as well as that very useful crack shot bonus. The only real disadvantage to Pask in an Exterminator is that you're often taking the Exterminator because you want a cheap tank and throwing on upgrades, even if they're good, gets in the way of that.

Vanquisher: Great for the extra accuracy, but the main gun doesn't need extra armor penetration at all. Still a good choice as he turns the tank into a killer.

Disagree entirely. Against the high-AV targets where you want a Vanquisher you really want that +1 STR. For example, against AV 14 you're getting a 25% better chance of a penetrating hit, and that's a huge difference. And that's on top of BS 4 and the STR 10 lascannon. Pretty much if you're taking a (codex) Vanquisher at all you should always have Pask.

Punisher: Good, but requires caution. Makes good use of BS and re-roll/penetration boost to cover almost every weakness of the main gun and also benefits sponsons. However, not moving with a tank at 24" or less is risky at best, I really wouldn't want to be auto-hit by an MC or nasty grenades (meltabombs, HG) in CC. Pretty expensive.

The assault problem isn't very relevant in 6th. You're hit on a 3+ at worst no matter how far you moved (instead of a 4+/6+), and the addition of hull points means you can't hope to get lucky on the damage table and ignore the pile of glances you just took. If any relevant assault unit charges your tank it's dead, moved or not.

 Peregrine wrote:


Even with TL BS 3 already on the main gun you're still getting a 20% increase in firepower for a 30% increase in cost, and you're also getting significant benefits for the sponsons as well as that very useful crack shot bonus. The only real disadvantage to Pask in an Exterminator is that you're often taking the Exterminator because you want a cheap tank and throwing on upgrades, even if they're good, gets in the way of that.

Disagree entirely. Against the high-AV targets where you want a Vanquisher you really want that +1 STR. For example, against AV 14 you're getting a 25% better chance of a penetrating hit, and that's a huge difference. And that's on top of BS 4 and the STR 10 lascannon. Pretty much if you're taking a (codex) Vanquisher at all you should always have Pask.

The assault problem isn't very relevant in 6th. You're hit on a 3+ at worst no matter how far you moved (instead of a 4+/6+), and the addition of hull points means you can't hope to get lucky on the damage table and ignore the pile of glances you just took. If any relevant assault unit charges your tank it's dead, moved or not.

Agree with your Exterminator comment, I do want them cheap and as such it's psychologically difficult to put Pask on it. Sponsons do benefit, of course. However, Pask only becomes points effective if you max out on sponsons, say with multimeltas and a hull LC, which again beats the point of taking an Exterminator.

If the Vanquisher isn't good enough at penetrating, so is a meltagun. Pask is a near 33% increase in cost and affects only 1-2 significant shots per turn. Yeah, it is a significant increase in power, but I mean, which is more important, the accuracy boost or the penetration boost? The vanilla Vanquisher is crap because of its accuracy, not the penetrative power. If you want to field an effective Vanquisher, you're pretty much forced to throw Pask on it, but I'm still not convinced it's worth 220 points.

HGs often come in a MSU setup, like five Swooping Hawks or five Wyches in a Venom. 3+ instead of auto-hit may mean you survive a round of assault from those guys. If the Hawks have the Intercept Exarch power, of course, you go bye bye, but not that many Eldar players take that upgrade. Melta bombs, which are often carried by 1-2 members of a squad, also mean 3+ is a significant difference. Aside from that, with the short range Russes you really need to move to get things in range.

I've played him in a Punisher at 1850 and he was excellent. 29x effective S6 shots just shredded light armor, and he also demolished power armor units as well.

24" range on the main gun wasn't an issue I found, since as an IG player the enemy is typically trying to close on my gun line.

Not the most competitive unit from a cost perspective, but really fun and very powerful when played well.

Creeperman wrote:Of course, you are at this point paying Land Raider prices for one tank, which notwithstanding its AV 14 front armor can still die to one lucky shot

You know, I've come to peace with 200 point russes.

The main reason why is because the carrier cost is really high, but the upgrade costs are really low. Spending points on certain upgrades makes the cost per killing power go DOWN while the tank gets more expensive. As such, the best way to make the tank not only killier, but perhaps efficient enough to bother taking at all is by spending those points on things like hull weapons, or, perhaps, pask.

In any case, the important lesson isn't to let the height of the price make you automatically think that it's too expensive for its cost.

Hedkrakka wrote:Pask is a near 33% increase in cost and affects only 1-2 significant shots per turn. Yeah, it is a significant increase in power, but I mean, which is more important, the accuracy boost or the penetration boost?

What's important is that you kill stuff, end of. It doesn't really matter how.

As mentioned, if you take a lascannon vanquisher, and then add pask, the upgrade DOUBLES the vehicle's killing power against AV13. 100% effectiveness against a really annoying target type (stupid quantum shielding), for only a 30% price increase.

That's a steal.

Hedkrakka wrote:Punisher: Good, but requires caution. Makes good use of BS and re-roll/penetration boost to cover almost every weakness of the main gun and also benefits sponsons. However, not moving with a tank at 24" or less is risky at best, I really wouldn't want to be auto-hit by an MC or nasty grenades (meltabombs, HG) in CC. Pretty expensive.

There's a guy that always runs a pask punisher at my FLGS, and I've always wondered ho much he's really gotten out of it. I don't consider a punisher's short range to be all that terribly detrimental in general, because 30" is still a reasonable threat bubble. The requirement to sit still really makes me question how often crack shot actually going to get used against vehicles. Plus, there are still vehicles that a punisher can't hurt at all, stationary or no, and a lot of those little AV10 vehicles tend to be kind of fast, and so I'd think would have some way of exploiting this range problem.

And with the idea of crack shotting vehicles (and even monstrous creatures, really) seems a little shaky, what you're really getting out of the deal is the BS4. That's just another 3 S5 hits per turn of shooting. You know what else does that? Heavy bolter sponsons, for only 20 points, and they get better AP. Of course, you could always give pask to a bolter boat punisher, but then I'd honestly start to worry about overkill by that point.

Also, I suppose he'd give those hull weapons crack shot, which seems much more likely to get used, but given that you can make any russ a bolter boat to throw down crack shot heavy bolter rounds, I think I'd probably take this on a cheaper tank.

I would say go for the vanquisher with lascannon is my favored choice for pask. Ive used it a couple of times because I like the special tank character for russes, but if your going for anti tank then go with vanquisher, but if you want something for monstrous creatures go for the bolter boat punisher. Ive dropped daemon princes in 1 shooting phase with the tank alone.

The last time I used the paskuisher I included hull lascannon and sponson MM. I had terrible rolling because the first turn I fired at a land raider, missed completely then turn 2 it was in MM range(2D6 pen) and I missed all but 1 shot and all that shot did was tear off a weapon. I then had Khorne berserkers running through my lines and at that point the tank wasnt really worth his points.

Its deffinitly got a specific roll and I would suggest trying it a couple of times.

I've used Pask extensively on bolter boat punishers.

vs MEQ:

Without Pask -
Punisher gets 10 hits, 6.6 wounds, 2.2 dead. Heavy bolters get 4.5 hits, 3 wounds and 1 dead, for 3.2 dead total.

With Pask -
Punisher cannon gives 3 dead, and the HBs an extra 1.3 kills, for 4.3 total.

So you've gotten +33% killing power for a +25% cost. Now let's look more favourably

vs AV11
Without pask
Punisher gets 10 hits, and takes 1.6 hull points. Heavy Bolters get 0.75, for a total of 2.35.

With pask
Punshier gets 4.4 hull points (with 2.2 rolls on the damage table), and HBs get another 2 hull points, with another roll on the chart, for a total of 6.6 hull points. That's enough to wreck most transports twice over.

Now vs AV12, the punisher takes 2.2+1 hull points, again wrecking the average transport.

And he's even more devestating against 'nids.

So yeah, Pask is badass. I've used him plenty, and he rarely disapoints.

tl;dr -

vs MEQ +33% killy power

vs AV11 +280% killy power

vs AV12 +infinite killy power

All for +25% cost.

But you only get that kind of damage against tanks if the punisher doesn't move. And it only has a 24" gun.

I think I'd rather just take multimelta sponsons than pask here. Much cheaper, and overall better against vehicles at close range.

 Ailaros wrote:
But you only get that kind of damage against tanks if the punisher doesn't move. And it only has a 24" gun.

I think I'd rather just take multimelta sponsons than pask here. Much cheaper, and overall better against vehicles at close range.

24" range is too short, so you'd rather have something with 12" range?

A multimelta has the same profile as a lascannon against AV12 with a 30" threat range.

At >12" those multi meltas get you a chance of a roll on the damage table. As I outlined above, Pask will average out 3 hull points on AV12.

So you've saved 20 points in return for marginally better penetration against AV12, worse penetration on AV11 and frankly rubbish against all infantry. I'd still rather go with Pask, apart from anything else I get my melta fix elsewhere.

To get the 30" threat, you have to give up the +1 to armor pen, as you have moved.
Also, it's 30" from the sponson, putting the nose of you tank 2-3" closer to the enemy.
At 24" from the sponson, you are getting into danger close for assault units. I'd be much happier if I had just a little bit more range.

I think that's why I like Paskquisher. I can park him in the back of my army and make you work to get to him. I ether get to shoot a lot long, or you've got to put a lot of effort into taking him out.

How about a 250 point Russ?
Vanquisher, hull lascannon, hunter killer missile, Pask, Camo.

I don't normally do HK's, but with the extra bonus to hit and armor pen, I'd take it for 10 points.

-Matt

BryllCream wrote:At >12" those multi meltas get you a chance of a roll on the damage table. As I outlined above, Pask will average out 3 hull points on AV12.

multimeltas can also strip hull points.

Plus, multimeltas will work against AV13+. And will ID paladins, etc.

And they've got a longer threat range.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
If the tank with pask in it stayed stationary then it adds +1 to the strength of all shots fired from the tank for the purposes of armor penetration, or when firing at monstrous creatures Pask allows you rerolls to wound.

The Crack shot rules means all shots adds +1 to any armour penetration roll, not to the weapon's strength.

Which matters in a few very specific circumstances but in the general case is equivalent to an additional point of strength.

Sometimes people establish a technically invalid equivalence for sake of shorthand. I think we can assume that's what happened here.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
If the tank with pask in it stayed stationary then it adds +1 to the strength of all shots fired from the tank for the purposes of armor penetration, or when firing at monstrous creatures Pask allows you rerolls to wound.

The Crack shot rules means all shots adds +1 to any armour penetration roll, not to the weapon's strength.

Literally the same thing. (for purposes of armor penetration)

Well, with the exception of S10 weaponry and when targeting Eldar energy fields (or was it holo fields? Meh.)

Corollax wrote:
Well, with the exception of S10 weaponry and when targeting Eldar energy fields (or was it holo fields? Meh.)

LCs and the VBC are still effectively S9 due to crack shot. He's one of the few upgrades or characters that can do that to Energy Fields.