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So I have finally decided to play 40k and I have narrowed down my army choices to Grey Knights and Chaos Daemons. For whichever you choose, I would appreciate it if you could supply a list with some basic tactics. I'm looking for a list that can reliably win if played correctly, but isn't utter cheese. I would also like a list that has some variety in it's units. I am not looking to run a whole bunch of vehicles or play draigowing. I also don't want to spam 40 flamers, but a few used effectively would be nice. I'm also intrigued with Daemon Princes if anybody could fit those into a list. 1500 is the point limit so I now turn it over to you guys....

Grey knights are not really known for their variety. Mostly you will have silver marines with Storm Bolters and Psycannons. Sure there is some variation, but they are pretty similar.


a GK henchmen list offers more variety in unit composition, but you would probably want to run a Mechanized list, which you do not want.



I would recommend Daemons, HOWEVER, the current rumors say they are due for a new codex and models in February.

Is there a way you can borrow models to learn the game until then, and make your decision once the new rules are out?

I voted grey knights. For the mostpart think they get a bad rep for cheese. Purifier and draigowings can be tough but I wouldn't consider them pure cheese, especially if you mix them up a bit. Low model count armies have their own distinct drawbacks that any good opponent will capitalise on. I consider cheese armies like the flying circus or flying bakery where no-one realistically takes enough anti air options. Grey knight inquisitor army can provide some great variation and even more when mixed with "traditional" grey knights

Grey Knights, the saviour of mankind.

Demons.

The knights are just silly. being "we are the good guys! and we will kill the innocents and our own allies to make sure of it!"

At least demons are outright open about their nastiness.
Just run something a bit more unique then "flamer/screamer spam", they are not very fun to play with or against, despite being very strong.

Right now CD is overpowered. I would shy away from them until the new codex is released. The last rumor I heard was that it was due in Feb. If you can wait until then you will be better off.

Grey Knights are solid all around, and will be for quite some time. Its hard to go wrong with them.

There's no option of "Pick something else"?

GK can be boring after a little while. Even with Henchmen lists, there's only so many variations that you can play. Before, in 5th ed, there were a lot more fun combinations of henchmen that made things interesting, less so now.

As mentioned, CD are in a sense quite OP for their points cost now. Every CD player is just spamming DPs with Screamers and Flamers. There's even less variety for a competitive build than when GK first came out. Mark my words, there'll be a nerfbat coming down.

I'm sorry to say, but if you're looking for variety of units and playstyles, neither of these armies are going to provide that. I highly suggest starting Chaos.

GK are formidablie but not very much choices to go on. I've been considering CD myself to boost my CSM but decided to wait and see if the scuttlebutt about the new codex was true or not. Flamers and Screamers are obviously as you can read anywhere very powerful but I've also heard good things about plaugebearers and deamonettes. Also hteres a thread I just read earlier about DP and best uses. Seems the general consinsus is DP with wings and the black mace.

Exalbaru wrote:
GK are formidablie but not very much choices to go on. I've been considering CD myself to boost my CSM but decided to wait and see if the scuttlebutt about the new codex was true or not. Flamers and Screamers are obviously as you can read anywhere very powerful but I've also heard good things about plaugebearers and deamonettes. Also hteres a thread I just read earlier about DP and best uses. Seems the general consinsus is DP with wings and the black mace.

Chaos Daemons DPs can't get the Black Mace. Only Chaos Space Marine DPs. Plaguebearers are decent objective holders, but why would you want to hold an objective when you can just table your opponent in two to three turns?

I didnt realize they couldnt have BM, my appologies. I had been thinking they were interchangable models

Exalbaru wrote:
I didnt realize they couldnt have BM, my appologies. I had been thinking they were interchangable models

The models are interchangeable, the rules are not.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Right now CD is overpowered. I would shy away from them until the new codex is released. The last rumor I heard was that it was due in Feb. If you can wait until then you will be better off.

I really can't believe that CD will get a codex just 1 month after DA. GW has a ton of other games out there and if they wanted to have rapid fire codexes coming out they would have done so sooner.

 Exergy wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Right now CD is overpowered. I would shy away from them until the new codex is released. The last rumor I heard was that it was due in Feb. If you can wait until then you will be better off.

I really can't believe that CD will get a codex just 1 month after DA. GW has a ton of other games out there and if they wanted to have rapid fire codexes coming out they would have done so sooner.

Last I heard their combining the fantasy and 40k CD book.

This is why it would be so soon after the DA book. Its on a different cycle than the 40k book releases. Its being released as a Fantasy book with 40k rules added to it.

I think you should choose which army based on the play style that interests you most. Do you like the idea of being the righteous hand of the emperor, slaying daemons and anything daemon tainted, using the best armor and weapons of the imperium? Or do you like the idea of being the thing that goes bump in the dark, fights for his chosen God of Chaos, and destroys everything for giggles? It seems like if you choose an army based on what/how you like to play, you'll have more fun, since (for the most part) the armies are balanced enough to keep games close with friends.

 svendrex wrote:
Grey knights are not really known for their variety. Mostly you will have silver marines with Storm Bolters and Psycannons. Sure there is some variation, but they are pretty similar.

The GK codex has tons of variety, just not visually. To say they arn't known for Variety is just flat wrong.

A Paladin list is very different from a Terminator list.

Purifierwing is very different from a Strike Squad army.

A Henchmen list is totally different from any of the above(and itself can take an almost infinite variety of forms)


The only place where there isn't variety is in the ranged weapons(and only in pure GK lists) where it will always be Stormbolters and Psycannons. But how they are used in different lists is massive.

 Homeskillet wrote:
I think you should choose which army based on the play style that interests you most. Do you like the idea of being the righteous hand of the emperor, slaying daemons and anything daemon tainted, using the best armor and weapons of the imperium? Or do you like the idea of being the thing that goes bump in the dark, fights for his chosen God of Chaos, and destroys everything for giggles? It seems like if you choose an army based on what/how you like to play, you'll have more fun, since (for the most part) the armies are balanced enough to keep games close with friends.

This is a very good point. To some people fluff doesnt matter at all. To others its the best part of the hobby. One of my friends actually painted goff clan (orks) checks on one wall of his game room. It becomes its own world especially when you start reading the books and getting deep into it.

 Enigwolf wrote:
There's no option of "Pick something else"?

GK can be boring after a little while. Even with Henchmen lists, there's only so many variations that you can play. Before, in 5th ed, there were a lot more fun combinations of henchmen that made things interesting, less so now.

As mentioned, CD are in a sense quite OP for their points cost now. Every CD player is just spamming DPs with Screamers and Flamers. There's even less variety for a competitive build than when GK first came out. Mark my words, there'll be a nerfbat coming down.

I'm sorry to say, but if you're looking for variety of units and playstyles, neither of these armies are going to provide that. I highly suggest starting Chaos.

a) One list doesn't make a codex overpowered, especially when it;s desinged to only murder MEQ's/TEQ's and every other army has available counters...
Yes, Flamer/Screamer spam is boring and won't win you many friends. It's not OP/broken like Draigowing was in 5th however, or the current scythespam of Necrons for example.

b) Thanks for the sweeping genralisation there. I didn't realise I was some dirty hobo, WAAC's powergaming jerk by spaming a whole 9 Flamers in my average 2k list! What a terrible, awful human being I am!



@ OP: Go Daemons mate! We're lined up for some shiny new rules & toys by all the current rumors for one thing!

Plus, we're the single most unique army in the game due to our deployment rules and how aggressively the army plays.

Oh, and by playing Daemons, you get two armies for the price of one since you can also play Fantasy with your 40k army!!!

Experiment 626 wrote:
Oh, and by playing Daemons, you get two armies for the price of one since you can also play Fantasy with your 40k army!!!

This is true to some extent. However, my limited experience with Fantasy seems to indicate that units that are good in 40k aren't always great in Fantasy and vice versa.

For example, in 40K, Bloodletters are probably the worst troops in the codex, in Fantasy they're amazing.

So while you might be able to use your army in both games, you'll likely be using different units in each game.

Chaos Daemons are definitely the optimum choice of army.

I play CD and I find them to be the strongest (at the moment in 6th ed) of all my armies. They have some great units, and can make some very cool and striking armies.

I'm taking it you know a bit about daemons already, so I'll jump right in. I play a mixed Tzeentch and Khorne list, although i tend to gravitate towards the former, as in my opinion, they have some of the most powerful units in the game.

Flamers are great. I'd use three units of three flamers in a 1500 point game and, because they are dirt cheap, as very effective suicide units. they obliterate units of medium to heavy armour infantry and any vehicle that isn't a flyer.

Daemons have some fantastic HQ's in the form of greater daemons. Heralds are alright if used correctly, but i tend to just use Lords of Change. Many people dislike them as they say they are a waste of points, but in most games I've played, I've seen them tear through entire armies. Fateweaver is also good, Those re-rolls can protect near about everything in your army, and he's not too shabby himself as a weakened LoC with all upgrades. Just watch out for people targeting him with everything in their army.

As for heavy support, daemon princes are good, but I wouldn't use them in anything under 1750 points as they are often quite expensive. Soul Grinders are alright actually, although I don't always fit them into my list. Even though they have 4, hull points are what make me use Soul Grinders less as they just die to glancing hits.

The Troops section of the army is pretty good, Pink Horrors in particular, as it contains the bulk of your list and provides you with either firepower, resilience, or a good combat unit.

As for Fast Attack, I generally don't bother, although Screamers are great (AP2!!!).

I feel I've rambled on a bit too much now so I will leave you with one of my standard lists. Enjoy! =)


Tzeentch List

Fateweaver - 333pts
LoC - Breath of Chaos, Boon of Mutation, We are Legion, Master of Sorcery, Instrument 360pts

3 Flamers - 69pts
3 Flamers - 69pts
3 Flamers - 69pts

10 Pink Horrors - The Changeling, Bolt, Icon 210pts
10 Pink Horrors - Bolt, Icon 205pts
10 Pink Horrors - Bolt 180pts

This list has a good amount of firepower, can take a hit too, (good invuls, improved by Fateweaver), and can move (daemonic flight on the big daemons and Flamers can jump), Hope I have been insightful!

Tough to start daemons when a new book is due out next month. Im also interested in starting daemons but am wiating to pull the trigger incase the new codex gets nerf batted

 Mafty wrote:
Tough to start daemons when a new book is due out next month. Im also interested in starting daemons but am wiating to pull the trigger incase the new codex gets nerf batted

40k will not get the 'nerfbat', Fantasy however most certainly (and very deservidly!) will get smashed by the nerfbat however.

Currently in 40k, the codex looks roughtly like;
HQ's: The only really sub-par choice here is a Herald of Nurgle, and even then he's still a decent boost to say a larger unit of Plaguebearers you might want to sit on a midfield objective.
However, Skarbrand, Bloodthirsters, Khorne Heralds on Juggers or in chariots, Lords of Change & mounted Slaaneshii Heralds are all quite good.
Fateweaver, Skulltaker on Jugger/chariot, Epidemius the Tallyman and Tzeentch Heralds are a cut above!

Elites: Everything here is amazing bar those poor, poor Beasts of Nurgle... (Slow & Purposeful while only being 'Infantry' unit type just kill them)
- Bloodcrushers will demolish any MEQ unit and are T5.
- Fiends are like a frieght train made of glass. Stick a mounted Herald of Slaanesh w/Pavane in the unit and things simply get plain nasty! Even despite capping at just 6 models max per unit, they still throw out a staggering 36 S5/rending attacks! (Ork players get very, very jealous of this!) And you can give one of them a +1S upgrade.
- Flamers are godly, and when spamed make the game 0 fun for opponents. (but then, any kind of spam list gets pretty fething dull)

Troops: There are no bad choices here. The one and only problem with our Troops is that they're costed for early 5th and thus are somewhat expensive compared to most of the other 5th/6th ed books.
- Daemonettes in large numbers give lots and lots of high initiative rending attacks. They're easily the hardest choice to get the most out of, but they're also the cheapest.
- Bloodletters tear MEQ's a new one without breaking a sweat. However, they're a bit over-costed and absolutely need large units to succeed due to only being T4/5++ and facing far more small arms fire than in the past.
- Plaguebearers are wonderfull for capping objectives. Even smaller units of 6-7 can work since they're T5/FnP troops. In larger numbers, you'll laugh at high toughness units since 'Bearers all come with Poisoned 4+ attacks, and one model can be upgraded to Poisoned 2+. In an Eppi list, these guys will eventually pretty much auto-smash anything that isn't a vehicle!
- Pink Horrors are our main shooters. No other Troop unit in the game can match them model-for-model in wieght of fire. Each gribbly can stay mobile and still gets it's full 3 S4/ap4 shots at 18". Sure it's only BS3, but in larger units, even MEQ's or TEQ's fall flat against sheer wieght of dice. Oh, and the Changeling is easily the game's best upgrade character!

Fast: Furies suck plain and simple. Worst unit in the entire game IMHO... For the cost of a fething Grey Hunter, you get a crappy assault unit with barely average stats that has to sit about for a whole turn and do nothing before it can even charge!
- Flesh Hounds are poo-poo'ed by the internets, but for their cost they're fast can will easily hang tough with low save horde units, while their Furious Charge means they can really have a field day eating most tanks. Against GK's, they're one of the few really solid counters we have though!
- Seekers do everything Flesh Hounds do, only better since they come with rending attacks like all Slaaneshii units.
- Screamers are plain dirty. TEQ's and Tanks live in abject fear of these guys, while they can now preform fly-bys similar to DE Reavers.

Heavy:
- Soul Grinders are solid fire support and sport 4HP's with av13. Their large blast shot is great for smashing large holes in MEQ's too!
- Princes are highly customisible, and you can build them to pretty much cover any role you need. While they no longer wade effortlessly through enemy lines, they're not quite nearly as useless as the internets claim. With BS5, giving a Prince the Mark of Tzeentch + Bolt gives you a decent vehicle killer that can sit back a bit and doesn't need to get up close. Slaaneshii Princes can be given the Hit-and-Run rule while Nurgle Princes are great at assassinating HQ's thanks to Noxious Touch and added toughness.
You can also give a Prince wings which while expensive, help out somewhat against enemy fliers thanks to vector strike. (Greater daemons like 'Thirsters are better at this though)



There's plenty of room for different and unique builds with Daemons.

Sure Flamer/Screamer spam is the idiot's way to play the codex, but there's little to no actual challenge and that list gets laughed off the table by Hordes and fliers. (actually, it's only really good vs Marines!)

For now, it's still worthwhile to pick out a couple units you really like and just work on building/painting them up while waiting to see over the next 3-4 weeks if there is indeed a new codex coming out.

^^

Thats why I said its tough to start an army when you have no idea what the rules will be next month. For all you know the rules could be terrible and severly nerf the army. EW could go, fearless could go, daemonic assault could change somehow.

I would go with Grey Knights because I think they are cool, but the problem is that Grey Knight lists are not about diversity. They are all about how many bodies you can get on the field in a sense. Most GK lists consist of at least 30 Grey Knight Strikes. Even henchmen lists tend to keep this core. I feel there is more viable variety in the Chaos Daemons book, but anything could change with it at the moment. The rumors look to be about 50/50 as to whether it is a WD update or a full release. I'd be surprised if it was a full release to be honest.

 Mafty wrote:
^^

Thats why I said its tough to start an army when you have no idea what the rules will be next month. For all you know the rules could be terrible and severly nerf the army. EW could go, fearless could go, daemonic assault could change somehow.

The only 'hazard guess' right now is that Daemons could likely lose army-wide Eternal Warrior due to the fact that the CSM Daemon Prince lost that rule.
And even without EW, so what? It doesn't really nerf Daemons that much, it simply means they have to be a bit more mindful of high strength weaponry like everyone else and lets Force weapons work as they should. (and outside of Derp Knights who already easily punk Daemons, how many pointy-death-sticks do you ever see?!)
I've played a few games myself without army-wide EW and guess what? The army still works wonders. Those invuln saves help some, as well as using cover. Daemons have no real trouble removing power fists, and it's possible to hit the S8-10+ guns before they hit you back.

Fearless could go? Only becomes a problem if the suddenly drop the army-wide Ld10. And since Daemons have almost always been 'Fearless', that's probably less likely to happen.

The only change GW needs to make to Daemonic Assault is to drop the rolling for prefered waves crap.
Unless GW suddenly gives Daemons a bunch of armour saves and/or access to cheap & plentiful transport options, it's almost a certainty that the Deep Strike deployment will stay. (Otherwise the army would be useless in 40k being forced to footslog every single game)


On the other hand, most Daemons are likely to drop in pts costs.
A Bloodletter for example is not worth the same cost as a Tactical Marine anymore now that it has to deal new threats like Overwatch, more small arms fire & is only ap3 in combat.
Furies are the worst unit in the game right now for their cost! They are almost certain to get buffed.

There will be new units as well.
Khorne is rumored to get a new chariot varient that mounts a giant flame-throwing cannon of some kind for example.
There's also a rumored new Tzeentch chariot + varient.

Daemons might even get some Psykers of their own now, or at the very least, might get some new/better psychic defenses.

Daemons will 100% for sure get their own new Warlord Traits.


For every possible negative, there's also at least one possible positive. Will 40k Daemons change? Most certainly. Will they be made unplayable and/or lose their biggest unique elements? Not bloody likely. Will 40k Daemons simply get nerfed through the floor because of just one problem build? Absolutely not!

Now, will FANTASY! Daemons get slapped silly by the nerf bat? Almost certainly, but they really deserve it since they only you know, broke an entire previous edition of the game!

Always the first few questions I ask newcomers to the game is, which models do you think is "cooler" and feel like you would not mind building/painting? And what kind of gamer are you (competitive, fun, fluffy or any combination) because at the end of the day I suggest you try out this army because of so and so but you will just end up shelving it because its not "your" style.

From what you have said in your post, you mentioned you wanted to play something which isnt all "cheese". GKs and CDs are taking flakk as one of the more "cheesier" armies this time around but thats neither here nor there since its your choice. I do suggest to wait on making any purchases until next month when the new rules for chaos demons get released.

Speaking of variety, you can make your lists as varied as you want but doing so impacts how competitive it is.

Tldr; wait until the new rules for demons comes out, then people would have a better idea what to suggest

Grey Knights seem to be a very popular army and a lot of people will grumble about them being OP, cheesy, flavor of the month, etc etc.. I would go with Daemons because they seem to be somewhat rare (at least in my area) but also very powerful with their flamers and screamers.

Anyone still saying GKs are OP and FOTM needs to get their head out of the sand. GKs havn't been OP since Necrons came out and 6th dropped.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Mafty wrote:
^^

Thats why I said its tough to start an army when you have no idea what the rules will be next month. For all you know the rules could be terrible and severly nerf the army. EW could go, fearless could go, daemonic assault could change somehow.

For every possible negative, there's also at least one possible positive. Will 40k Daemons change? Most certainly. Will they be made unplayable and/or lose their biggest unique elements? Not bloody likely. Will 40k Daemons simply get nerfed through the floor because of just one problem build? Absolutely not!

Now, will FANTASY! Daemons get slapped silly by the nerf bat? Almost certainly, but they really deserve it since they only you know, broke an entire previous edition of the game!

That 40k Daemon build will get nerfed.

I imagine, depending on who is writing the book, Daemons will either become fairly powerful or another Chaos Space Marine middle tier army.

Flamer/screamer spam is broken.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Every CD player is just spamming DPs with Screamers and Flamers. There's even less variety for a competitive build than when GK first came out. Mark my words, there'll be a nerfbat coming down.

I'm sorry to say, but if you're looking for variety of units and playstyles, neither of these armies are going to provide that. I highly suggest starting Chaos.

Not ever Daemon play spams DPs w/ Screamers and Flamers, all the ones I know (including myself) usually (read: 99% of the time) don't, unless they are facing locally know tfgs...

Also, Daemons have a variety of units, I mean 8 non-special character HQ's, and being able to take up to 4 under 2000 points, 5 troops, 4 elites and 5 fast attack, and to finish it up, 4 Heavy Support!


Of course, playstyles either consist of several flavors of all Assaut, 1 flavour of all-shooty and several flavours of mixed.


Of couse, outside incredibaly cheap flamers and screamer, most units are overcosted.


If you are looking for easy, go GK, if you are looking for a very unique, but harsh, playstyle go Daemons.



If you go the Daemon route, wait until Febuary/March