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I'm actually doing just fine with Tau. But that's only because use of the allies system gives me two troops that can hold objectives or I just don't focus on objectives (the key part of the game).

And fluff doesn't justify bad table top play style. If you want to use fluff to justify anything, Necrons and Nids would like a word with you.

Besides. It's still a negative. Markerlights were the reason why a shooty army was given BS3 across the board. The current environment gives armies bonus on top of bonus. That is not balanced at all. The only other army I can think of that suffers from the same issue is Nids with synapse.

so you've figured out a way to make tau work for you? nice, so why keep complaining to people who share the same view that Tau troop choices are (compared to all other army troop choices) sad at best

Have you read the previous pages? There has been a detailed argument as to wether they are overpriced, underpowered, and/or Poorly equipped. I've been trying to argue that they are terrible at handling the objective based game currently. I suggest going back and reading from the beginning.

I have it just seemed as though you were complaining overly much, my apologies

To keep with the topic, yes firewarriors are currently overpriced for what they bring to the table.

I don't think much arguing is really needed, the best army books in 40k are the ones with excellent troops choices, and based on those ideas, Tau will never be a truly competitive army until they fix Firewarriors and make them not "A ok troop options" but a great troop option. (They could do it to kroot instead, but that would take away from the whole Tau ideal in the first place, if every army fielded nothing but kroot as troops)

The way I see it, the good troops out there do things a certain way to be effective. (These are just a few)

-Orks: Cheap as very numerous, tough enough to make basic weapon not enough to deal with them fast enough.

-Space Marines: Tough troops with special/heavy weapon
weapon options

-IG: troops with enough number to take a good amount of fire, can also take special/heavy weapons

So what are Firewarriors suppose to be?

I don't think they should be as cheap as orks for sure, they're an elite army of high tech xenos, they commit few to war, depending on their tech to win the day. I don't think they should be a numerous as a IG platoon company, but at their current size, without the options for special/heavy weapons as a suppar BS, it makes it seem like they should have more. They shouldn't be as tough as Space Marines, but I can see them shooting as well as one, they are full time soldiers, much like Space Marines and IG Vets. And to end, they should have special and heavy weapon options being such a high tech race. Noone in their right mind that has the technology send units out without tools that are possibly needed in battle. i.e. Anti-tank (Melta weapons/Longrange anti-tank) Anti-personnel (Flamers, small blasts) and lastly Krak grendaes for light vehicle/monster duties.

I don't think we need more Firewarriors, I think we need deadlier firewarriors, making their point values worth while.

These are my quick easy fixes:

-Give them drones with Special/Heavy Weapons (TL BS2 weapons are fine is combined with my idea later)
-Fire warriors go to BS4 and come with equivalent of krak grenades or EMP grendaes get rules for hurting monsters)
-Change Marker Lights slightly. Have marker lights only affect vehicles "Suits" and Drones due to the advance computer systems built-in. Firewarriors can still take marker drones(Not on the shas'ui), but the only benefit they can possibly get is firing seeker missiles from vehicles at targets they've painted.

This take firewarriors out of the Markerlight argument all together, allowing them to buff them to a decent troops choice without making them overpowered based on an armywide support buff.

Changing the markerlight mechanic is a bad idea, as it's more of the things that makes the army special-the mechanic just needs to be more reasonably priced then it is right now, or easier to use (assault 1 with smaller range for the "light" markers? the tetra-style "high-intensity" being the heavy ones)

To fix FW they need 3 basic changes:
1-shoot like a freaking soldier, not a recruit.
2-don't brake so easy
3-get more weapon options.

1 is obvious. BS4 is the path.

2 is easy-just give them either better leadership, or some abilities that makes moral matter less. a slight addition to livability could also help. even a commander for free is a start.

3 is the complex one. for starter you can give them their grenades for free, and make the carbines actually have a reason. beyond that I got a slightly odd concept:
Scrap the pathfinders.
Give the pathfinder options to the FW squads, and more reasonably costed, so one can set his squad as multiple setups.
A FW squad that can give a few guys either assualt 1 low-range markerlights, or rail rifles can make them far more flexible and versatile.
Want a camper team? set up some rail rifles. want a strike team? markerlights and (the buffed) carbines.

On another note, heard a wild rumor (with 0 confirmation) that next codex the carbines will be standard rapid-fire guns, and the rifles will be slavo weapons. no clue where that comes from, but sounds interesting, and actually fits the fluff better.

 Jayden63 wrote:
DE never leave home without a blaster. 10 DE never leave home without either a DL or a splinter cannon. DE can get FNP, FC, and Fearless without having to add anything in points wise, it just depends on what they have done recently.

And you picked the one army that is actually less effective at shooting T3. If you want to show an even more lopsided look into the FW favor, lets have firewarriors and DE warriors shooting at T2 grots. However, now lets stack up your 9 FW against 10 DE warriors and have them shoot at T5 or better things. Now who is doing the more killing?

So yeah, all armies have things that they do better than others just because of their default equipment. But you need to look at the entirty of the game. Some match ups are just better than others and in the grand curve of it all the FW does find itself lacking as it has a very uphill battle against the most prolific profile of all available armies.

how about against an armor value. say AV10?

It takes 6 shots for a Firewarrior to get either a glance or a pen on AV10. 12 shots to get a glance on AV11.

However, it only takes 3 shots from an IG plasma gun to get a damageing roll on AV10 and 2.3 shots from Marine plasma to get a damaging roll on AV10.

S5 is nice, but its not even close to special/heavy weapon nice. Especially since S5 can't even touch AV12 where plasma and melta are still very much good to go.

Melta is not "very much good to go", melta is "oh AV12? that's cute..."

But for every 3 plasma shots IG get, tau will have 6 or more FW if they want, making it equal and thus worthwhile.

But the plasma get +1 to the pen table and still have better odds. And you missed out on the Melta still being more effective against all armor and then adding +2 to the pen table.

That and IG still get autocannon heavy weapon squads or lascannons or missile launchers.


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And plasma can still pen Av11 and 12 which makes all the difference.

Who needs Markerlights when you can have Eldrad as an ally casting Prescience? Have him stand in the front soaking damage all the while Fire Warriors re-rolls to hit!

Tau is a specialist army. Leave the tank and MC killing to Crisis Suits and Broadsides. Fire Warriors are reasonably priced.

See, I want to agree with you Sabrx except FW cap out at a pitly 12 bodies... Eldrad is way too expensive just to boost 12 FW. I think the key problem with FW is they need a 20 man squad cap and a drop in cost by 1-2 pts... then they are awesome.

Yet they would lose all the flavor of Tau and become yet another horde.

FW need is any a price increase, after a health buff. they should be somewhere around the necron warrior cost and worth.

 Jayden63 wrote:
It takes 6 shots for a Firewarrior to get either a glance or a pen on AV10. 12 shots to get a glance on AV11.

However, it only takes 3 shots from an IG plasma gun to get a damageing roll on AV10 and 2.3 shots from Marine plasma to get a damaging roll on AV10.

S5 is nice, but its not even close to special/heavy weapon nice. Especially since S5 can't even touch AV12 where plasma and melta are still very much good to go.

As I stated above, FW's damage output is far higher than vet squads with plasma guns, against all types of infantry.

Honestly I suspect Tau players aren't taking enough of them. I'm tempted to proxy a 1500 point tau army and build a list around 60 FWs. It'd make anyone with assaulting infantry pause for thought, and anyone with mech infantry realising how flimsy AV11 and AV12 is against S10.

Tau already has a horde-like unit called Kroots. I myself own 100 Kroots. While they aren't fearless or stubborn like other horde counterparts (unless you ally a fearless or stubborn leader), they perform admirable in assault and shooting considering they are 7 points a pop. They can expand their numbers with the addition of Kroot Hounds. If Fire Warriors were 20 unit cap, then there's no reason why anyone would field Kroots.

Although given the current metagame, It's not too surprising that Tau are at a disadvantage compared to other infantry based army lists.

I'm skeptical about points reduction on Fire Warriors, but 20 unit cap does seem reasonable. Points reduction should be applied to Crisis Suits, Stealth Suits, Plasma Rifle, Missile Pods, Pathfinders, Kroots, and Devilfish. They are all grossly overpriced for what they do and in comparison to patterns in past codices.

 BryllCream wrote:

As I stated above, FW's damage output is far higher than vet squads with plasma guns, against all types of infantry.

Honestly I suspect Tau players aren't taking enough of them. I'm tempted to proxy a 1500 point tau army and build a list around 60 FWs. It'd make anyone with assaulting infantry pause for thought, and anyone with mech infantry realising how flimsy AV11 and AV12 is against S10.

Really? You really mean to tell me that a vet squad with three plasma firing at BS4 are going to do less damage to a terminator unit than 12 firewarriors? You're honestly going to suggest that?


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And your math was off. 3 plasma guns don't get .66 kills. They get 1.66 which is more than the firewarriors alone.


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And again, its not an issue of numbers. Max squad size is 12, so 3 wounds max to force morale checks. And I believe that's about 50% chance to fail with LD 8. Go ahead and proxy 60 FW. Then see how fast it will take those 15 wounds total to force a morale check against all 5 squads.

seriously, what FW need is for their computer systems to actually make a difference, either that or GW is actually suggesting that the fire caste are that pathetic to have like BS 1 or 2, weapon choices would be awesome, I mean, instead of just different forms of machine guns, perhaps be able to get mini versions of railguns, I know...rail rifle but that is...well, for a wannabe sniper team (without the sniper rule) maybe a heavy rail gatling gun, sigh, suppose I'll have to wait for the next codex for a viable troop choice...

Fire warriors should probably be BS 4, I agree. They probably sleep with those rifles.

Martel732 wrote:
Fire warriors should probably be BS 4, I agree. They probably sleep with those rifles.

It needs to be cannon that all Fire caste rituals include a loaded weapon, including the mating rituals.

That and maybe give them a unique grenade mechanic. Something to spice things up. I'm all about giving love to other armies as long as it makes the game more interesting.

Unless we want 15 point firewarriors, I'd say BS 4 is a non-starter.

Making Markerlights more useful, especially when taken as a part of the squads gear would have a similar effect anyway.

I don't think BS 4 alone would warrant a +5 increase. GWs balancing skills are suspect at best. 6th edition is actually a big surprise in terms of the rules.

Why would BS4 FW cost 15 points? The ethereal body guard is only 12 points and the only stat change is BS.

That and Necron warriors are only 13 points for +3 LD, +1 S/T/BS, and +2 WS with RP.

I'd hate to see an updated codex where they actually increase the FW cost with only a minor stat change.

And Markerlights shouldn't increase BS. It just justifies Tau getting a crap BS.

Jefffar wrote:
Unless we want 15 point firewarriors, I'd say BS 4 is a non-starter.

Making Markerlights more useful, especially when taken as a part of the squads gear would have a similar effect anyway.

So IG vets should cost......13pts? At least I guess, they have BS4 and grenades already. BS4 is pretty much standard for a shooty based armies troops, unless they win by mass firepower (which we should agree that Tau don't do that, unlike IG)

So tau should have crap bs in replacement for what? the troop choice has nothing else going for them

If they are going to stay in small squads of T3 models then they need base BS4 and access to at least a few special weapons.

I personally think the pulse carbine should get the blind rule.

If you were to take marker drones or krootox and cut their cost it would make them more usable and resolve what I feel is their predominant flaw. Firewarriors I don't think really have as much of a problem of being overpriced as they do with needing a better reason to take plasma carbines instead of plasma rifles. I like the idea of giving them more special weapons, but as I tried to think of how I'd do that I realized that I was always taking another part of the army and trying to put it in the infantry slot. Really I think it's more a matter of fixing the other parts of the army (pathfinders, marker drones and ethereals) to work better and have their points reduced than it is to fix what is probably one of the better units in the tau army atm.

I think making markerlights assault 1 or at least making a mini-markerlight that is assault 1 but with a reduced range would help a lot. I think the idea of ethereals could work but they need a significant boost to their survivability. (heh. Make some of them demons and we could have some chaos tau. Honestly an invul save and no instant death would make them a much more viable option even if it raised their points costs significantly.)

mini marker lights? a targeting system that works for the rest of the FWs in the squad for the 'ui upgrade could work. Give the tau the computerized feel that they need in the troop choice rather than hiding the FWs behind all their beefed up tech comrades.

I just want to throw this out there:

A Marine with a Str 4 bolter and BS 4 will score 0.33 wounds per shot against T4 models.

A Firewarrior with a Str 5 gun and BS 3 will score 0.33 wounds per shot against T4 models.