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Except you can only bring three pathfinder squads and they are better used on the elite and heavy support choices. That's why you don't factor markerlights in for them. They are better spent elsewhere.

And I agree that Tau shouldn't play like space marines, but its still silly that FW have to rely on FA firewarriors to justify their high point cost. If you do that then factor in the cost of pathfinders WHICH DO NOTHING BESIDES BUFF ONE FIREWARRIOR SQUAD into their cost.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Except you can only bring three pathfinder squads and they are better used on the elite and heavy support choices. That's why you don't factor markerlights in for them. They are better spent elsewhere.

And I agree that Tau shouldn't play like space marines, but its still silly that FW have to rely on FA firewarriors to justify their high point cost. If you do that then factor in the cost of pathfinders WHICH DO NOTHING BESIDES BUFF ONE FIREWARRIOR SQUAD into their cost.

Thats an innaccurate blanket statement, pathfinder supply buffs to whatever target you need to kill *now*. Buffing 3 Plasma/Missile suits is great if you want to kill space marines but that 30 man squad of Orks or Gaunts won't care about the few extra high strength low AP hits. A max sized squad of Fire Warriors can double tap for 24 shots and gain far more benefit when shooting at such a squad and tear it's heart out. Fire Warriors pay for that potential the same way Guardians do for the potential of 20 of them getting Guide/Doom.

The Fire warriors don't rely on anyone, literally the only target they can't engage and destroy are AV 13-14 tanks. They are enhanced by that synergy and as such cost slightly more than the same troops in an army that cannot. If you use them like point and click troops you will always be at a disadvantage because of this but your army has the utility to enhance key elements at key times. Hell multiple Fire warrior squads can even buff each other with Shas'ui markerlights. It loses out as a tactic in 6th now they can move and shoot with Rifles further but is still valid as a way of throwing BS4 on a unit engaging the same target 50% of the time.

By ignoring markerlights you are skewing the comparison because they are a core mechanic or the army. You may as well suggest Nid LD is too low if you don't account for Synapse...

I'm not that familiar with Nids, but do Synapse do nothing but provide LD buffs?

The problem with markerlights is that they've always been expensive, on BS3 models, and don't benefit their own unit. It puts them in an odd place to me because it's a core mechanic that works 50% of the time to benefit another unit.

And yes, the point cost for firewarriors does take the markerlight bonus into account when they were made. I agree to that. I'm saying that it's a silly now. Markerlights are pretty much limited to pathfinders just due to the amount of markerlights they bring and with out other weapons they really aren't sacrificing much by focusing their fire on something just to get a marker token (at least without adding in a target lock). It takes another squad that is going to cost around 130 points to be able to buff a 120 points of firewarriors.

The pathfinders don't even have synergy with themselves due to them being forced to buy a transport that causes them to sacrifice shooting when they embark or disembark. Now they get to snap fire, which benefits markerlights a bit more since they just need to roll to hit and not wound or allow for saves.

Personally I think FW would be fine at their current price if the squad leader came with the 60 point 6 man unit and if they had options for drones with better weapon options. I personally like them as troops and the big gun they carry. There is just something about them that doesn't sit right with me. The gun is really versatile, but often comes up lacking a lot just due to the number of saves out there. I'm not honestly sure what it would take to really fix them IMO but a price drop wouldn't do it. Even at 8 ppm they would still be lacking something. I'd prefer to pay points then come up short in performance.

Dunklezahn is right in that we should include the buffs to FW, but I think we should also include the price. For a team of FW to get the buffs given by 4 Pathfinders (and assuming the necessary Devilfish is also put to good use), a team that would cost 120pts now costs... well, I haven't got my codex with me, but I think it would be 168. Correct me if I'm wrong, but either way it's certainly not worth the points, for which reason we should consider FW on their own.

 p_gray99 wrote:
Dunklezahn is right in that we should include the buffs to FW, but I think we should also include the price. For a team of FW to get the buffs given by 4 Pathfinders (and assuming the necessary Devilfish is also put to good use), a team that would cost 120pts now costs... well, I haven't got my codex with me, but I think it would be 168. Correct me if I'm wrong, but either way it's certainly not worth the points, for which reason we should consider FW on their own.

Minimum size squad numbers with no upgrades:

6 FW = 60pts
4 Pathfinders = 48 pts
Required D-fish= 80 pts

Total 188 pts. for 2 squads to make one squad decent.

How much for a squad of Necron warriors and their unit size? I'm thinking that might be a more accurate comparison than IG to FW.

Total 5 necron warriors for 65 points, so 13 points per model.

Thanks.

So figure in about

+1 for RP
+1 for Guass rules
+1 for +1S/T/BS/LD

That sound right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do I need to factor in things like the Orb and the dedicated flying transport into their cost too?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
But you disagree with your previous statement. 9-11 points -1 (no grenades) -1 (worse leadership and no buffs) -1 (lower I and WS) gives you 6-9 points and you say 10 is fine.

grenades werent in the equation to begin with
-1ld is really the lack of a champion(which is an issue)
lower I and WS doesnt matter, virtually no assault troops have WS3, so they are getting hit on 3+ anyway. Init3 also is sub any non ork or cron assault unit

9-10 points is fair.

commissars would be nice if they were free but they cost 30 points. That is no small chunk of points


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Thanks.

So figure in about

+1 for RP
+1 for Guass rules
+1 for +1S/T/BS/LD

That sound right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do I need to factor in things like the Orb and the dedicated flying transport into their cost too?

a str5 gun is about equal to a str4 gun with guass, but fire warroris have +6" range too
+2 for +1 WS, str, T, BS, Ld
+1 for RP

Tau leadership buff (Ethereal) is 50 points, has no armor or weapons, and can make the rest of the army run off the board. Especially considering that it's a unit that buffs only leadership because Tau has lower leadership than average, and that without him you're taking that test on a lower than average LD. I'd consider that Commisar a steal.


and Gauss can glance any armor vehicle. I'm still factoring +1 because it makes it more versatile than the Pulse Rifle.

and 3 points for 4 higher stats and RP? That seems a bit off.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Tau leadership buff (Ethereal) is 50 points, has no armor or weapons, and can make the rest of the army run off the board. Especially considering that it's a unit that buffs only leadership because Tau has lower leadership than average, and that without him you're taking that test on a lower than average LD. I'd consider that Commisar a steal.


and Gauss can glance any armor vehicle. I'm still factoring +1 because it makes it more versatile than the Pulse Rifle.

and 3 points for 4 higher stats and RP? That seems a bit off.

RP is stronger then FNP, about half way between FNP and eternal warrior since it does not stop I.D., but still works even when the model is I.D, so it is probably worth 2 points. Especially when it is not one every model in the unit, not just do to a single model upgrade.

Oh and if you start to factor other units in to, then you get things like Ghost arks and Resorbs that improve the RP roll. A necron warrior should cost abitt more than a FW and be with in a point or 2 of a Vanilla Space marine.

Why bother calculating in a pathfinder squad? Just give the Squad leader a drone controller, and two marker drones. Now you're paying 60 points for the two drones, who can buff the squad, but are saving on the cost of the devil fish the pathfinder would have to take (48+80, or 68 points). Comes out to 12.85 points (or 13.5 if the squad leader has his own marker light) per model. This assumes you're using a full squad, and it does prohibit moving, though with a 36" range on the marker lights, and a 30" range on the guns you won't have to move as much as say, a guard platoon.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Tau leadership buff (Ethereal) is 50 points, has no armor or weapons, and can make the rest of the army run off the board. Especially considering that it's a unit that buffs only leadership because Tau has lower leadership than average, and that without him you're taking that test on a lower than average LD. I'd consider that Commisar a steal.

well perhaps ethereals are overpriced, they well could be overpriced but that doesnt make the cost of a basic firewarrior over or underpriced.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

and Gauss can glance any armor vehicle. I'm still factoring +1 because it makes it more versatile than the Pulse Rifle.

str5 vs str4 and guass does:
20% more damage against T3
33% more damage against T4
50% more damage against T5
100% more damage against T6
infinitely more damage against T8

In the edition of infantry, doing more damage to infantry matters a lot.

against vehicles
str5 vs str4 and guass does:
100% more damage against AV10 and infinitely more chance to blow up(half the hits are penetrating)
same damage vs AV11
no damage vs AV12 or higher

now there are less vehicles out there, particularly AV11-12 ones but people are still fielding paper planes and boxes(AV10) and heavy tanks. The issue with heavy tanks is that they are unlikely to be close by making guass less useful. when heavy vehicles get close, they expose their side armor.

All this in a vaccuum. Tau have excellent ways to deal with heavy vehicles(rail guns), necrons do no. Other than guass it doesnt get to great at range.

barnowl wrote:
I find them a bit over priced when compared to IG or Termigaunts, by about 3 points I would say. Not gmae breaking but enough that you notice it.

EVERYTHING is overpriced compared to IG. That is a problem with IG, not Tau.

They're definitely expensive for what they do, they got better with 6th, but infantry rifles aren't what win most games, BS3 S5 against most targets isn't any different than BS4 S4, and carapace equivalent armor is amongst the most consistently overvalued and overcosted piece of equipment in Warhammer 40,000. 8ppm is about what I'd put their value at.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The problem with Tau Fire Warriors is that everyone assumes you're dealing with them in a vacuum, when you aren't. Factor in Markerlights and they become very useful.

Markerlights make them killers on tables where the adversary is counting on terrain. Although if the adversary knows he is fighting Tau. He should take that into account :O)

 btr75 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The problem with Tau Fire Warriors is that everyone assumes you're dealing with them in a vacuum, when you aren't. Factor in Markerlights and they become very useful.

Markerlights make them killers on tables where the adversary is counting on terrain. Although if the adversary knows he is fighting Tau. He should take that into account :O)

Eh. If I run in the open to get to your faster, instead of taking away my cover save you are boosting your BS. It's a lose/lose for me.

-Matt

Tau just seem to be schizophrenic in their approach.

With their points costs and tactics, they want to feel like an elite army. But, with the FW's comparatively low stats with quite a few units needed to make them really effective, they want to feel horde like. Their weapon strengths and ranges make them out to play like a gun-line. But, they work best as a mobile shooting army (thanks to things like JSJ).

On the topic of Fire Warriors pricing. I feel like there are a few things they could do. A: Do nothing about it (most likely..), B: Keep the price but up the stats a little bit (like a bit better LD and maybe BS4 because they are supposed to be some of the best shots thanks to their tech), C: Keep the stats but lower the price a tiny bit.

I'm thinking a combination of B and C. Simply lowering their cost a bit, and raising their stats up slightly. I just want to see higher LD, a slightly lower cost, and though I don't want to see them be BS4 base I'd like to see a different approach to markerlights so the squad has easier access and benefits. Instead of competing against other units for those precious little red dots.

Personally I'd like to see Pulse carbines be given the blind rule. Short range and AP5 shouldn't cause that much of an upset.

And FW lower stats have to be taken into consideration. Yes CC units will stomp them as good as other units with slightly higher stats. But that means that several non CC units like guard can beat Tau down severely. The fact that they are that low has to be taken into consideration. Yes no assualt unit has WS3, but that means that non assualt units now have something over Tau. Either the stats should be raised or the points should go down.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
How much for a squad of Necron warriors and their unit size? I'm thinking that might be a more accurate comparison than IG to FW.

Closer comparsion would probably be to a Battle Sister.

I'm not that familiar with sisters. I compared them to the warrior because they're both xeno with 4+ save, squad wide toned down special weapon, poor CC stats, and with an army gimmick (RP vs markerlights).

How would you compare a sister to a FW?

For 2 points extra each, Battle sisters have 1 better BS, I, LD and save, and have bolters, bolt pistols and grenades in exchange for pulse rifles.

I'd say that the weapons exchange is roughly fair or slightly in favor of tau, but it does make the SoB capable of charging if absolutely necessary. They also have plenty of nice upgrade options, though on the downside you have to take between ten and twenty.

I'd say the BS and LD is worth 1 point, the save is worth 1 and a bit, and they lose that bit over the weaponry. Then again, the SoB's ability to not only survive a charge but also give one in a bad situation is probably worth another point, meaning that if SoB cost the right amount, Tau are 1 point too many.

I'm not sure whether to count the 6++ or the Act of Faith... they don't seem too important (and having played with scourges, I know how little a 6++ is ever going to actually help).
Still, by that comparison they're roughly the right cost.

The thing about firewarriors, is that in a one on one comparison, they come out worse to pretty much any other troop choice, but that is the thing with Tau, you need to use your army together. It is the core mechanic of the army, so of course necron warriors, space marines and battle sisters are better for the points cost, but a full squad of firewarriors with markerlight support from a tetra and a piece of mobile LoS blocking terrain in the form of a devilfish can do things that these units can not, and they can do them well.

If you use the flat out move of the devilfish correctly and position your models properly, you have a unit that is almost always out of LoS, but can still shoot 12-24 s5 bs5 shots at whatever it wants. The combination of these 3 units works, but on their own, firewarriors are outclassed, and so they should be. No other unit in the game functions exactly like the firewarrior, so it is pointless to compare them.

What's the S and T on sisters? Don't they all also come with a 6+ invul save? And I believe the 3+ save is a bit more than 1 point. By that logic then Termies should probably only cost about 20 points or so. Going from flak to power armor save is a significant upgrade.

"Firewarriors are bad, but other things are good so that makes them less bad" I disagree with that logic entirely.

Again, you can't factor markerlights in, since they are competing with HQ, Elite, and Heavy Support slots for their use. Even if you were, you have to dedicate an entire FA slot towards a shooting weapon that doesn't damage, but buffs the accurracy of other weapons while their own weapons suffer from BS3. To top it off, they are an extremely vulnerable unit that is armed with heavy weapons. They previously couldn't move and fire, or make use of their transport.

Take markerlights out of the equation and anybody can do the same, but at better efficiency. The devilfish is insanely expensive for a transport that has no decently ranged weaponry.

And back to the problem. No other unit functions like firewarriors. They are equipped like elite troops but given the stat line of a horde unit. They have no ability to survive in CC since even non combat units will be hitting them more and hitting them first. They have a higher S gun that gives it the ability to wound higher than average, but give it a BS value so it only hits half of the time. In order to raise that to normal, you'd need to upgrade to a squad leader and bring marker drones. So you're looking at 160 points for a 12 man squad that will get 2 50% accuracy markers so BS4 for the squad.

I will not count pathfinders towards this, since pathfinders will more than likely be supporting three other FOC slots.

And honestly markerlights should not increase BS in my opinion. It's a mechanic that completely needs to be reworked. It's a mechanic that's just silly because it justifies giving an entirely shooty army terrible stat lines including BS3.

I also don't believe that people are basing the points right for troops. The increase of initiative is probably negligable. But increasing T from 3 to 4 is a significant increase. Same thing with the base Leadership of 7 to 8 or 9. Armor save getting increased to 3+ as well. But people will group several significant changes and just say +1 point.

Like in the Necron example.

I'd still argue the Gauss rule is better than the pulse rifle. They lose out on the ability to damage higher T infantry, but gain the ability to take down even the heaviest of armor. The reason why they have that ability is because they don't have special weapons. It still gives them a versatile weapon with 24" range. Pulse rifles are the Tau's version of that. Higher S and higher range meant to negate the problem of having no special weapons. But they are placed onto a significantly more fragile unit that is significantly less accurate and with a lower body count.

They're definitely expensive for what they do, they got better with 6th, but infantry rifles aren't what win most games, BS3 S5 against most targets isn't any different than BS4 S4, and carapace equivalent armor is amongst the most consistently overvalued and overcosted piece of equipment in Warhammer 40,000. 8ppm is about what I'd put their value at.

This sums it up nicely. Firewarriors aren't necessarily "bad", but they are on the lower end of 40k troop choices:

You will never ally with Tau in order to take Firewarriors. You will take them because you have to in order to gain access to Battlesuits. On the inverse, Tau will ally with armies such as Orks, Guard, and Space Marines for the purposes of getting viable troop choices.

Sisters basically have the statline of a guardsman, but with the weaponry and BS of a marine, and the 6++ that I mentioned somewhere in my post.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Guardsmen have bigger numbers, higher initiative and weapon skill, plus the option to take power weapons. How can they not beat FW? Plus as mentioned they have bad leadership. It just takes winning combat by 1 and then winning initiative.

Put it this way, I don't think there's a single guard player who'd turn down even a 1 point reduction for basic infantrymen in return for -2WS and -2I.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Why bother calculating in a pathfinder squad? Just give the Squad leader a drone controller, and two marker drones. Now you're paying 60 points for the two drones, who can buff the squad, but are saving on the cost of the devil fish the pathfinder would have to take (48+80, or 68 points). Comes out to 12.85 points (or 13.5 if the squad leader has his own marker light) per model. This assumes you're using a full squad, and it does prohibit moving, though with a 36" range on the marker lights, and a 30" range on the guns you won't have to move as much as say, a guard platoon.

Full squad costs are bit off than what you got.

12 FW with TL leader upgrade 125
2 Markelight drones 60 points

total: 185 points
or 15.4 avg per firewarrior to get 2 markerlights. Assuming both hit you are now looking at near Space Marine costs and they look even worse. A 6 man squad with 2 drones is even worse going to 20.8 points per FW.

Just don't take marker drones. They're not even worth considering.

 p_gray99 wrote:
For 2 points extra each, Battle sisters have 1 better BS, I, LD and save, and have bolters, bolt pistols and grenades in exchange for pulse rifles.

I'd say that the weapons exchange is roughly fair or slightly in favor of tau, but it does make the SoB capable of charging if absolutely necessary. They also have plenty of nice upgrade options, though on the downside you have to take between ten and twenty.

I'd say the BS and LD is worth 1 point, the save is worth 1 and a bit, and they lose that bit over the weaponry. Then again, the SoB's ability to not only survive a charge but also give one in a bad situation is probably worth another point, meaning that if SoB cost the right amount, Tau are 1 point too many.

I'm not sure whether to count the 6++ or the Act of Faith... they don't seem too important (and having played with scourges, I know how little a 6++ is ever going to actually help).
Still, by that comparison they're roughly the right cost.

I though sisters were WS 3 or 4 not WS 2