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Cruddace is writing the next tau codex, so we could have ig 2.0, nids, SOB....

and while you pay 7ppm for a veteran that veteran squad has acess to 3 special weapons, 1 heavy weapon, +3 different ways to play them, + they can be droped by a cheap spammy way Underpriced flyer.

Wait. Vets are 7ppm? And BS4?

With a free +1 A/Ld sarge and access to three special weapons (and doctrines), yes.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

RegalPhantom wrote:
1. Pathfinders are now a troops choice. Additionally, Fire Warriors are unable to take Pulse Carbines except on their Shas'Ui (mostly to help differentiate between the units).
2. Devilfish are now cheaper for both Pathfinders and Fire Warriors (but slightly more expensive for Pathfinders, since they get extras)
3. Defensive Grenades and the Shas'Ui team leader upgrade are now including in their cost.
4. Markerlights (not Network Markerlights) are now assault rather than heavy. Additionally, a squad may fire both their markerlight and another weapon if they remain stationary.
5. Teams have access to 0 - 2 Special Weapons gun drones, which carry BS 3 special weapons. I'm thinking these weapons will include Burst Cannons. Flamers. Fusion Blasters, and Plasma Rifles.

I think that with these changes, it would be easier to justify fire warriors at 10 ppm. Note that this is without giving them BS4, which I personally think is unnecessary.

I never thought that changing the price alone would fix Firewarrors that much. I like some of your ideas, but really have to ask why you'd limit it to one pulse carbine per squad. Or why even include the carbine at all?

The reason I left the optoin for the carbine was actually because of one of my favorite tricks with a fire warrior squad. Give the team leader a carbine and a target lock, which allows the squad to shoot at whatever they choose while still giving the team leader a slight chance to pin a different squad (ie, one that migth be in assault range). While not the best thing, its helpful for fighting low leadership assault armies.

Fire Warriors are slightly overpriced on their own, but they are supposed to be part of a battle plan, the Tau are a synergistic army. Give them some Markerlights so their BS is raised and the become utterly lethal. Still not great, but I've found them to work very well.

Feels like they should get a special weapon or two, really, even ork boyz get those.

Being part of a synergistic army is no excuse for overpriced units. I don't know why everybody seems to think synergy is a Tau army attribute. Every army in 40k is a synergistic, it doesn't matter what army you play, if you can't get your units to work together you are going to lose. Some armies, such as Tau and Eldar, have more specialized units that make the army suffer even more when the units do not work together, but if anything specialization should be justification for reducing not increasing a units price due narrower range of application of the particular unit. Tau also aren't the only army out their with a force multiplier, many armies can enhance performance of individual units through psychic powers or rules such as orders, and while Tau may not have the weakest force multiplier, its probably the most poorly integrated and implemented. Pathfinders have always been an incredibly awkward way to incorporate markerlights, being a entirely static element in an army the emphasizes mobility and fluidity, and suffering from an archaic rule which requires the purchase of a Devilfish that can rarely be used effectively with the pathfinder unit. Marker drones are simply too expensive while the Firewarrior sarge lacks the needed weight of fire to reliably mark targets while also forcing his firewarriors to remain static while doing so. Many Tau players eschew markerlights entirely, especially if they don't have access to Foregworld Tetras, because they are so difficult to integrate. So please, stop using markerlights and synergy as justification for weak and poorly priced Tau units.

Ok. So if IG vets are 7 ppm and come with three special weapons at BS4 then I can't accept any of the comments from earlier about Firewarriors being decently priced that were made by IG players.

And it's been asked to stop bringing synergy and markerlights into the discussion for like 9 pages now. I don't expect we will see that argument dropped.

Just like how people keep mentioning that we have the best transport. Like it carries terminators or something.

If the Shas'ui had a networked Markerlight, I could understand the synergy argument, but when we have to pay a minimum of 128pts for 4 BS3 Markerlights, and factor that into the cost of a unit of 12 fire warriors they cost about 20pts each, yeah they're obviously the right price

quack98 wrote:
If the Shas'ui had a networked Markerlight, I could understand the synergy argument, but when we have to pay a minimum of 128pts for 4 BS3 Markerlights, and factor that into the cost of a unit of 12 fire warriors they cost about 20pts each, yeah they're obviously the right price

I pay 110 points for 8 BS4 markerlights. On fast skimmers.

Oh Tetra, how i love thee!

Tetras are awesome are they not? The best thing to come out of forgeworld for Tau, ever.

Tetras and the one XV-9 special character (because they are 40k standard legal) are the only things I like from Forgeworld. The Barracuda seems nice, but it doesn't really seem to fit in with the standard 40k flyers to me.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Tetras and the one XV-9 special character (because they are 40k standard legal) are the only things I like from Forgeworld. The Barracuda seems nice, but it doesn't really seem to fit in with the standard 40k flyers to me.

The XV-9 suits need an update to bring their points/abilities in line with the other forgeworld-only models. As far as rules go, Commander R'alai needs T5 marker drones or errata that says to ignore his drones for determining toughness when shooting at him, or grant him Independent character status so he can join other XV-9 suits. He is otherwise pretty solid rules wise.

Barracudas -- I have only used them a couple of games so far but what I like about them on paper is they have a total of five s7 shots and six s5 shots, and can deep strike behind enemy flyers. This gives them a pretty good chance of dropping enemy fliers out of the sky, even if they are only AV10 with 2 HP. A bigger issue with the barracudas is their $$ cost than their points cost, currently. Hopefully recent rumors from Faeit 212 are true and we will get a new, White Dwarf legal flyer in the next month or two.

The rumors also said the flier only had S6 and S5 shots against fliers. So that would make it pretty poorly equipped to handle fliers.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The rumors also said the flier only had S6 and S5 shots against fliers. So that would make it pretty poorly equipped to handle fliers.

Storm ravens, maybe, but as for everything else I use my flying hive tyrant (12 TL s6 ap- shots) to take down anything AV11 or lower with relative ease. I guess i'm just a wishful thinker but we can pass judgment on whether or not the new tau flyer is worth it if and when we see rules/model for the thing.

Storm ravens, heldrakes, and vendettas. Leaving storm talons, Necron fliers, and Ork jets. So its only really damaging against half the fliers, and the two S6 shots are going to be from missiles.

I'm really hoping the rumor is wrong, because that is weak for a race that has such amazing air firepower.

Just to throw a tiny bone there to all thoes who say the "underpowered" camp sounds like the ask for SM stats:

The FW, by fluff ARE the Tau version of the SM. they are the fire caste, an entire subrace dedicated to nothing BUT war-they are born and bred soldiers and not some flimsy recruits.

Should they pack a genetically-engineered super-soldier stats? heck no.
But at the very least they should be better then a washed-up human recruit who is hardly trained, hardly equipped and the only thing that keeps most from running (fluff wise) is the fear of execution as traitors.
An alien soldier trained in nothing but gunfire and self-defence for years equipped with optical sensors that can shame a modern tank should not be a worse shot then a human with no targeting equipment at all that has the experience of a few firefights.

The FW CORRECT place is not with SM stats, but as a borderline stats between the IG vets and the SM. not UNDER the IG vets.

And don't bring markerlights into the equasion as why its "fine", because almost every army got something that does a similar job better and cheaper.
Sure the forgeworld tetra is amazing, but the fact an entirely different unit does a good job does NOT fix a flawed troop choice. especially one that is specialized for one task, and even at that can barely match performance to the jack-of-all-trade units.

Very well put.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Ok. So if IG vets are 7 ppm and come with three special weapons at BS4 then I can't accept any of the comments from earlier about Firewarriors being decently priced that were made by IG players.

And it's been asked to stop bringing synergy and markerlights into the discussion for like 9 pages now. I don't expect we will see that argument dropped.

Just like how people keep mentioning that we have the best transport. Like it carries terminators or something.

IG Vets are 7ppm and are BS4. However, they lose Carapace Armor, any gun AP, and 2 gun Str.

And stop talking about the Special Weapons. We pay points for those when we buy them - the Points Per Model does not factor them in.

And you do - it can carry terminators in an apocalypse game, and it is more survivable now than most Main Battle Tanks.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


IG Vets are 7ppm and are BS4. However, they lose Carapace Armor, any gun AP, and 2 gun Str.

And stop talking about the Special Weapons. We pay points for those when we buy them - the Points Per Model does not factor them in.

And you do - it can carry terminators in an apocalypse game, and it is more survivable now than most Main Battle Tanks.

Ugh... This is getting tedious.

IG vets are cheap and allows them to field special weapons while still being cheap overall. Special weapon options do factor into this, since the unit's abilities and damage output reflect cost. That and nobody actually brings IG vets to NOT bring special weapons. It's been discussed so many times that special weapons deal more damage than an entire unit of Firewarriors, so it totally matters!

The transport is terrible because the troops aren't worth hiding inside it. Their good ranged gun becomes worthless inside, it has no fire points, the Devilfish is only useful for keeping the firewarriors back and not advancing, and its expensive as crud.

What it does in apocalypse isn't important since its almost an entirely different game. If it could bring terminators now, maybe it would be fine. It can't. So its not.

Have you actually paid attention to any of the thread?

While I think FW are slightly overcosted, I believe the simplest way to fix that is to roll the grenades into the base cost and let the Shas'ui upgrade include Target Lock and a Marker Light for free.

Failing that, make 'em 8PPM.

Throw in emp grenades for free if you take pulse carbines could really give them some more flexibility.

chaplaingrabthar, similar to my thoughts, Photon Grenades and a Shas'ui for free.

Still slightly overcosted for what they are, but far closer.

It wont gt the job done.

FW needs a major overhaul. they need to get better defind, better equipped, and have a rational statline.

I have no issue with cost increase to accompany, as long they are made worth the new cost.

Personally I think the following statline would suit much better to make sense both with fluff, and with tabletop desired behavior

2, 4, 2, 4, 1, 4, 8, 4+ for the regulars
3, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 9, 4+ for the team leader

This statline is worth probably a 13 point cost if you give them the grenades built-in, the ability to throw them both, and a built-in TL. also the carbine needs a major overhaul (altough I would dib if the "pulse rifles are salvo, carbines rapid ire" rumor turns out to be real.)

13 ppm is far too high for any configuration of gear FW currently have, even with BS 4. This is partially because most of their gear is of dubious value. The sarge, knife and BSF are the only good ones. The markerlight is heavy which makes using it difficult, the target lock is there only to use with the markerlight, photon grenades are more likely to cause you problems with two round assaults then save your FW, and EMP grenades are flat-out too expensive. There is nothing FW can currently do that justify pushing them to this cost level.

10 ppm with some free upgrades might help, but throwing in some extra grenades and BS4 does not justify a 3 ppm increase.

BS 4, T 4, I 4 and Ld 8? Seriously?

Let\s see what's wrong with that.


BS 4 - the Tau, while trained, professional warriors with great gear are supposed to have poor eyesight compared to humans, as such with the training and the compensation 3 is reasonable.

T 4 - Tau are smaller and less resilient than the average human, if you are going to mod this, modding it like you did strength makes more sense, downwards.

I 4 - Apparently in addition to not liking missing and not liking taking wounds, you also like not getting swept. I understand, believe me I don't like it either, though to be honest there is rarely enough of a FW squad left after the first round of combat for me to care if it lives or dies. The big thing here with Tau is you want to lose cmbat and lose it badly. Giving the Tau I4 means that they might all get the chance to attack. If they do so, there's the chance that they might not lose badly enough and might not break leaving you stuck in melee for 2 rounds and unable to shoot the buggers. If you want to have I4 for your Sweeping Advance rolls, invest in a gun drone.

Ld 8 - Okay, again, this 'upgrade' actually hurts the Tau. You want to break to shooting to deny the other guy the assault. You want to fail your morale check in assault to open up the other guy to be shot by the rest of your army. 'improving' the leadership actually makes it harder for that to happen and makes the Tau less effective overall. If you are concerned about units fleeing off the table, here's a hint, don't line them up on the back table edge. I've never had a Tau unit that had a chance to check to see if it rallied before it went off the table go off the table.

The Tau are essentially supposed to be smaller humans with bad eyesight a dislike for close combat and some of the best gear in the galaxy. Leave the base stats alone and either adjust the price down or give them the better gear to make them more effective for the price.

Jefffar wrote:
BS 4, T 4, I 4 and Ld 8? Seriously?

Let\s see what's wrong with that.


BS 4 - the Tau, while trained, professional warriors with great gear are supposed to have poor eyesight compared to humans, as such with the training and the compensation 3 is reasonable.

T 4 - Tau are smaller and less resilient than the average human, if you are going to mod this, modding it like you did strength makes more sense, downwards.

I 4 - Apparently in addition to not liking missing and not liking taking wounds, you also like not getting swept. I understand, believe me I don't like it either, though to be honest there is rarely enough of a FW squad left after the first round of combat for me to care if it lives or dies. The big thing here with Tau is you want to lose cmbat and lose it badly. Giving the Tau I4 means that they might all get the chance to attack. If they do so, there's the chance that they might not lose badly enough and might not break leaving you stuck in melee for 2 rounds and unable to shoot the buggers. If you want to have I4 for your Sweeping Advance rolls, invest in a gun drone.

Ld 8 - Okay, again, this 'upgrade' actually hurts the Tau. You want to break to shooting to deny the other guy the assault. You want to fail your morale check in assault to open up the other guy to be shot by the rest of your army. 'improving' the leadership actually makes it harder for that to happen and makes the Tau less effective overall. If you are concerned about units fleeing off the table, here's a hint, don't line them up on the back table edge. I've never had a Tau unit that had a chance to check to see if it rallied before it went off the table go off the table.

The Tau are essentially supposed to be smaller humans with bad eyesight a dislike for close combat and some of the best gear in the galaxy. Leave the base stats alone and either adjust the price down or give them the better gear to make them more effective for the price.

And coming from a Tau player, this says a lot haha. While I think they should have BS4, they don't need T4 or I4. Maybe LD8 to bring them up, but not T4 or I4. They aren't as tough as Space Marines and not as "fast"

I can agree that T4 and I4 might be too much.

BS4 isn't absurd though. The only "canon" mention of Tau having bad eyesight was from a one sentence blurb about them having poor depth perception. But to say that Tau have bad eye sight and therefore bad shooting is a ridiculous statement for an army that is based entirely around shooting. That's like Khorne Berzerkers having terrible Arthritis and therefore WS3.

LD8 isn't a bad thing. Its not like having +1 leadership is really what's going to get them to stick around in close combat. And it's completely missing the point that Firewarriors need to be able to hold an objective and not run off it. They will still get creamed in CC regardless of LD, and having low LD just punishes them for the shooting phase really.

And I really don't understand why a race of genetically directed warriors that are born, raised, and live to fight for the empire would have the same base LD as an IG recruit. They aren't an unruly group of conscripts. They are a highly trained group that views their squad as one of the closest bonds in their culture. It's not religious zealotry, but it might as well be the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And now that I think of it, what kind of fixes would you give to Kroot? I really can't stand how they are a race that values ranged and CC while having access to technology from different races, yet doesn't move past the standard rifle and knives. Not to mention that they were no armor because it would make them less nimble and agile, yet cant move at the standard Initiative. Kroot would probably need more work than Firewarriors if they ever planned to be used as an honest troop choice.

And I can't wait for the first person to say "but Kroot are supposed to die." No they aren't, that's not what long time allies do.

They're 37% cheaper than a Tactical Marine (most of them) anf a much greater margin compared to true assault units. That's pretty nice. If a unit of 6 Tactical Marines was attacked by a unit of 10 Grey Hunters, the normal Tactical Marines would lose. So would the Tau. I know that seems obvious but think about it critically: if they would lose as Space marines, then you have paid less and lost potentially nothing you wouldn't have already, plus freed the attacked up to be targetted. So the only time that it matters that you wish Fire Warriors were better in combat is...sometimes. You pay 37% less all the time. You get a great shooting attack all the time.

It's food for thought.

For kroot, I'd give them a 6+ save standard, with upgradable to 5+ for 1 ppm or 4+ for 3 ppm. I'd make Kroot Guns assault weapons (Assault 2 with either 18" or 12" range). I'd also drop fieldcraft and just give them stealth and move through cover. I'd also drop the cost of the shaper (perhaps also drop the statline down to make them just another HQ), and have some sort of master shaper as an HQ that gives them a bonus. I'm also liking the idea of giving their sergeant shapers something that reflects the Kroot's carnivorous nature.