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 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

Happens quite a lot it seems. Gives one decent reason to question the true effectiveness of said tactical teams.

Exept thats not a problem with Tactical Teams, thats a problem with getting reliable information and double checking that you are indeed in the right place.

 NELS1031 wrote:
The no knock warrants are particularly dangerous.

I think there was a case around these parts (Bmore/DC area) where a no knock warrant was served, the team breached the doors and the perp defended himself with his hand gun, which led to SWAt killing him. When the other occupant was apprehended, and the dust settled, they realized they were in the wrong apartment. One civilian dead.

It was posted on dakka, wasn't it?

If that's the case you're thinking of, I think it was a bad tip-off, not a wrong address.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Happens quite a lot it seems. Gives one decent reason to question the true effectiveness of said tactical teams.

I'm not really sure what you mean. I mean, in terms of entering a house which may contain armed aggressors, then officers with the right arms and armour, and (perhaps more importantly) training in co-ordinated entry is just plain more effective at keeping the situation under control and officers safe.

Maybe ending the ridiculous and ineffective war on drugs would help reduce officer, perp and civilian casualties.

That does seem like something of a win-win. It'd save a gak load of cash as well, which could be put to use reducing demand for drugs, rather than attacking supply.

 sebster wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Happens quite a lot it seems. Gives one decent reason to question the true effectiveness of said tactical teams.

I'm not really sure what you mean. I mean, in terms of entering a house which may contain armed aggressors, then officers with the right arms and armour, and (perhaps more importantly) training in co-ordinated entry is just plain more effective at keeping the situation under control and officers safe.

Maybe ending the ridiculous and ineffective war on drugs would help reduce officer, perp and civilian casualties.

That does seem like something of a win-win. It'd save a gak load of cash as well, which could be put to use reducing demand for drugs, rather than attacking supply.

I mean in the sense that said tactical teams end up murdering civilians and kicking the wrong door in quite often despite their "training". Seems like a no knock warrant gone bad gets an innocent killed at least a half dozen times a year. I personally can't see the militarization of the police force as a good thing no matter what.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 sebster wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Happens quite a lot it seems. Gives one decent reason to question the true effectiveness of said tactical teams.

I'm not really sure what you mean. I mean, in terms of entering a house which may contain armed aggressors, then officers with the right arms and armour, and (perhaps more importantly) training in co-ordinated entry is just plain more effective at keeping the situation under control and officers safe.

Maybe ending the ridiculous and ineffective war on drugs would help reduce officer, perp and civilian casualties.

That does seem like something of a win-win. It'd save a gak load of cash as well, which could be put to use reducing demand for drugs, rather than attacking supply.

I mean in the sense that said tactical teams end up murdering civilians and kicking the wrong door in quite often despite their "training". Seems like a no knock warrant gone bad gets an innocent killed at least a half dozen times a year. I personally can't see the militarization of the police force as a good thing no matter what.

Which only happens because they were given incorrect information. If they kicked down the correct door we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The problem isn't with the tactical team or how the operation was carried out. Its that they had the wrong location.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 sebster wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Happens quite a lot it seems. Gives one decent reason to question the true effectiveness of said tactical teams.

I'm not really sure what you mean. I mean, in terms of entering a house which may contain armed aggressors, then officers with the right arms and armour, and (perhaps more importantly) training in co-ordinated entry is just plain more effective at keeping the situation under control and officers safe.

Maybe ending the ridiculous and ineffective war on drugs would help reduce officer, perp and civilian casualties.

That does seem like something of a win-win. It'd save a gak load of cash as well, which could be put to use reducing demand for drugs, rather than attacking supply.

I mean in the sense that said tactical teams end up murdering civilians and kicking the wrong door in quite often despite their "training". Seems like a no knock warrant gone bad gets an innocent killed at least a half dozen times a year. I personally can't see the militarization of the police force as a good thing no matter what.

Which only happens because they were given incorrect information. If they kicked down the correct door we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The problem isn't with the tactical team or how the operation was carried out. Its that they had the wrong location.

And a knock on the wrong location wouldn't have resulted in the lawful shooting of a police officer and the unlawful shooting of a civilian. The no-knock warrant is just as much to blame as the wrong information.

Damn po-po trying to ask me how the weather is. I want my cocaine damnit!

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I mean in the sense that said tactical teams end up murdering civilians and kicking the wrong door in quite often despite their "training". Seems like a no knock warrant gone bad gets an innocent killed at least a half dozen times a year. I personally can't see the militarization of the police force as a good thing no matter what.

You can't train people to the point of perfection. Requiring a standard that allows them, on entering a room, to see a man with a pistol aimed at them, and have them be able to establish in a fraction of a second that the person might be armed but isn't actively hostile because it's the wrong address is just not possible.

On the militarisation of police it's more of a mixed issue, I think. I certainly agree that amping up the gear and aggression with which police will enter homes will inevitably lead to avoidable deaths. But I think the militarisation of police needs to be looked at not as an independant thing to be judged as good or bad, but more as a result of other parts of society. As long as you have as many guns among society as you do, and you have criminal networks running drug operations, then you're going to have places policemen will find it dangerous to enter with standard kit (and they aren't always going to know which places those are). The inevitable response is cops in more gear, trained in entry tactics.

Reducing either the guns, or the number of drug gangs will make it possible to reduce the regularity of raids undertaken in SWAT gear. But ignoring the first two and just worrying about house raids with SWAT gear doesn't really work.

sebster I believe you can train police officers to the point of being able to read addresses, and most of these accidental shootings are from officer error, not bad tips.