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 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Remember the two Penny Arcade homage minis in Relic Knights were $15 each

(admittedly these later got stretched to include a smaller 'cyper' mini, but initially it was $15 for a single)

Yes, I remember.

For some reason, I'm thinking that this not-Rocketeer is going to be about half their size too.

I'll be sad if $15 is the new $10 for Kickstarters though.

To be fair since size seems to be such a huge issue (what are you all, cheerleaders? ) the Rivet Wars minis seem to be much thicker than any of the KD or Relic Knights minis and I hear for some people a thick mini is better than a tall one anyways. Besides, isn't it how the minis are used in the game that matters?

I'm shocked no one else hit on this completely wide open innuendo. Glad I could class this place up a bit with it

Hmm, regardless of innuendo, there's a pic that shows that the minis, while chunky, are actually going to be around 30mm. Those are actually some fairly chunky models, I guess I just assumed they'd be smaller because of the simple design.

New stretch reward added the Special Edition figures will ship with a plug in version along with the regular version @$210k so the $15 for the Jetpacker doesn't look to bad now.

Plug ins fit in the tanks they can be swapped in and out and they add additional benefits to the tank

I knew they would do that given the way they ran their past kickstarters. Hopefully everyone is a lot happier with value for money now

 Alpharius wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Remember the two Penny Arcade homage minis in Relic Knights were $15 each

(admittedly these later got stretched to include a smaller 'cyper' mini, but initially it was $15 for a single)

Yes, I remember.

For some reason, I'm thinking that this not-Rocketeer is going to be about half their size too.

I'll be sad if $15 is the new $10 for Kickstarters though.

I wouldn't be surprised. The last few big ones have been hammering that home. Imbrian Arts was $12 and of course KD was $15. On the other hand, as pre-order miniature prices approach and surpass more than RRP for the equivalent figures at retail it'll just make it that much easier to skip them and their associated campaigns entirely. Even this one costs a lot of money for a boardgame. We won't see another Zombiecide/Sedition Wars from CMON, and I certainly don't expect another Reaper from, well, anybody. That one was an anomaly for sure.


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Here's the scale pic:

You still with us Scipio

hnuh?

He's afraid that you've withdrawn your pledge.

I'm more afraid that you've become the scipio that cried wolf, and when you finally do withdraw your pledge no one will believe you.

As I keep saying, I'll withdraw or modify it in the last day or two. The only campaigns I've changed it more than once were Sedition Wars and Kings of War, when KS and how this stuff works was new. Since then, and including this one - everything between the day I pledge and the final day is just commentary

The commentary is always welcomed though! The more I watch that video, the more I think the 'spawning' of the units really is a neat little mechanic. I'm hoping to see a bit more to better differentiate it from Dust Tactics, but I'm pretty hopeful.

You know one thing I find pretty funny? How bent people are getting when comparing the perceived "value" of the box compared to other board games with minis (Zombiecide, Sedition) and then sorta refuse to acknowledge that these minis are a TON beefier than any of those other games.

Personally, I think the base game is appropriately priced for the market and believe once the$225K infantry are added the Blitz package will only continue to grow in value.

Thoughts?

Hmmmm...

If you think represents 'good value' then CMON has successfully raised the bar on the whole Money to Value thing in Kickstarters and we're all going to be paying a lot more than we used to and possibly should!

I know I'll be sitting this one out, and waiting for retail, if then.

@cincydooley

Size isn't how I determine value. It's the quality of the model/sculpt. I'm into some games based on playability (Zombicide with drunken friends) or based on amazing models (Sedition Wars/KD:Monster). This doesn't fullfil the random silly itch like Zombicide or the amazing model niche like SW or KD so I perceive the value as much, much lower.

And have a model be "beefier" but much easier to design and produce doesn't make it ok to bump the price significantly.

I'll be keeping an eye on this one but I'm probably waiting for retail, if even then similarly to Alph.

 Alpharius wrote:
Hmmmm...

If you think represents 'good value' then CMON has successfully raised the bar on the whole Money to Value thing in Kickstarters and we're all going to be paying a lot more than we used to and possibly should!

I know I'll be sitting this one out, and waiting for retail, if then.

I don't know that it's CMON that set that bar. I think FFG really did. For a game like this, the 'industry norm' seems to be between $60 and $90 USD, with a few outliers on either side of that range. This is where games like Gears of War, the D&D Adventures series, and even Mantic's corridor games sit. On the high end you of course have Super Dungeon & Dust Tactics, both of which I think have much more high quality components, especially miniatures wise, than the previously mentioned group.

Quality of the sculpt I'm right with and I use that as a barometer, the same as I use component quality (this is one of the reasons I can't bring myself to buy any of Mantic's board games). Obviously we can't say for certian what the quality of the Rivet Wars sculpts will be unitl we have them in hand, but if I had to make an educated guess, I'd bet they're on the same level as SDE. They'll be great to paint, but won't be as "detailed" as something like Sedition Wars because they style won't require them to be.

Anyways, thanks for the input! I think, for me, this is going to scratch one of those silly itches like Zombiecide does .

Cheers!

Update 8 comes in announcing the addition of The Man In Charge for all Blitzkrieg! backers.

It also links to a neat interview with CMON by Bring Your A Game.

Excerpt:

BYAG: Kickstarter has been pretty good to Cool Mini or Not. Is this now the preferred way to get a game into production? Do you think crowd funding is here permanently?

CMON: It certainly provided us a lot of feedback in terms of how to tweak the games – Zombicide had nifty plastic trackers added instead of cardboard chits because of our backers, for example. The knowledge that we have committed gamers backing us also helps tremendously in terms of confidence of production, which drives costs down a lot, making previously expensive (or even impossible) projects a reality. It’s a huge responsibility though, and not one we take lightly.

It’s hard to say if crowd funding is here to stay, but I don’t believe we’ve seen a peak yet – so far, only really early adopters are aware of it. I’m pretty certain as it becomes more popular things will progress further than any of us anticipate.

 cincydooley wrote:
The commentary is always welcomed though! The more I watch that video, the more I think the 'spawning' of the units really is a neat little mechanic. I'm hoping to see a bit more to better differentiate it from Dust Tactics, but I'm pretty hopeful.

You know one thing I find pretty funny? How bent people are getting when comparing the perceived "value" of the box compared to other board games with minis (Zombiecide, Sedition) and then sorta refuse to acknowledge that these minis are a TON beefier than any of those other games.

Personally, I think the base game is appropriately priced for the market and believe once the$225K infantry are added the Blitz package will only continue to grow in value.

Thoughts?

I tend to compare these boardgames using miniatures (or close to it, as this one does) to others that fit the same kind of scope to someone like FFG, who makes a lot of "our people's" boardgames, or the Wizards branch of Hasbro (as opposed to Hungry Hungry Hippoes). Simply put, $90US is expensive for a boardgame at retail. The "Kickstarter discount" here will plainly be whatever extras they throw in by the time it ends. $25 for shipping from the US actually sounds quite reasonable.

There's an interesting evolution at work here though. Zombicide, (which I sadly missed) attracted all the extras at Abomination/$100, which was also the base game funding level. Sedition Wars had a $10 discount for the boxed game alone ($80) but set the extras "sweet spot" again at $100 (same as Zombicide). Here, the "sweet spot" is set at $140, which is $50 more (or an addition of more than 50%/half again of the base game cost of $90). It'll be interesting to see if the perceived value of the Blitzkrieg set comes to the same as half again of the base game level. Or, you know, more. To make it some kind of deal. Slapping a $15/ea value on chibi-figs doesn't make them especially more valuable to me. YMMV.

Still, with the CMON Kickstarters we're seeing a level of price creep in a very short time that would make even GW blush.

OH NO ES NOW I MIGHTY HAVE TO WITHDRAW MY PLEDGE RIGHT NOWE



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 cincydooley wrote:

I don't know that it's CMON that set that bar. I think FFG really did. For a game like this, the 'industry norm' seems to be between $60 and $90 USD, with a few outliers on either side of that range. This is where games like Gears of War, the D&D Adventures series, and even Mantic's corridor games sit. On the high end you of course have Super Dungeon & Dust Tactics, both of which I think have much more high quality components, especially miniatures wise, than the previously mentioned group.

I don't know that SDE's miniatures are particularly better than the D&D miniatures boardgames' figures (Ravenloft et al). Both potentially paint up very well, but I wouldn't say they're particularly "higher quality". I think both are a bit variable in their particular aesthetics, but I don't think SDE is particularly better.









This is of course, without bringing games like Age of Conan ($80/168 miniatures) or Descent into the discussion.

Descent is a very expensive game due to expansions. There were what, 6-8 expansions by the time they made the move to 2nd Ed? That's a lotta boxes to buy.

I guess I should explain my own reasoning for why I see this thing as worth it:

FFG put out a DOOM boardgame a while back. Over here in Oz it was about AUD$90 (not double what it was in the US, thanksverymuchGW). I own two copies. I have never played it. The miniatures have never left the box. The cards and counters remain unpunched. The tiles, however, have seen more use than almost any set of tiles I own, all for the 40K RPG's. I do not feel that I wasted $180 on a game I've never played because I have certainly got my $180's worth out of those corridor/room tiles.

I own all three editions of Space Hulk, and the reasoning is very similar. I spent $600 back in mid 2005 money getting 1st and 2nd Ed Space Hulk (plus 1st Ed's two expansions). I got tons of minis out of it, and now have nearly 150 Genestealers, and a lot of tiles. Again, all of these have coming handy even if I've not played the game itself.

Sedition Wars? Bought it for the minis and the tiles (of which I bought two sets). I want to make an X-Com board game using the pieces from it (and that gives me an idea - the minis from DOOM could work well here as well). If the game is good, then great, but that'll be a bonus.

To put it all another way, I'm looking for versatility. This game looks like fun, plus the trench tiles could be useful elsewhere. Zombicide is a great game, and I own two tile-sets in case I need to do a detailed abandoned city for any game I may be running. I've spent hundreds on D&D tiles and maps, and I've only ever played D&D twice in my life, but I've used all of them quite a bit.

If a game turns out to be really good then that's great, but that's not the only criteria I base a game's worth on. How much use I can get out of everything in the game, even not within the context of the game, is far more important.

 scipio.au wrote:
OH NO ES NOW I MIGHTY HAVE TO WITHDRAW MY PLEDGE RIGHT NOWE

See. I just don't believe you any more...

Well, I threw my hat into the ring behind Blitzkrieg and a few bits more for the Honestly Not The Rocketeer.

Some bits from Kevin last night

Will each faction have more then one type of infantry at one point down the line?
We have some more troopers in the plan now, I think we will get to see them not to far down the road

Tokens includes, damage counters, gas counters, mine fields, dragons teeth, barbed wire, score counters. I think that is everything

We do have Mine fields, Dragons teeth (tank traps) and barbed wire in the core game now which I think got upgraded to plastic in one of the stretch goals? Might not have yet, not sure. Either way we have them here now with us forever!

Air units are in the plan, just waiting for us to get there

Blackadder - When we were brainstorming ideas for promo models I never thought of blackadder, I do not know what is wrong with me.

Dice and the 5 and 6
The dice with only have the logo on the 6. While currently there are no things that adjust the dice roll, we do have some planned, so we can't hard wire the dice to the 5 and 6.

Decals - I think we have a line on water slide transfers. Hopefully this will pan out and we will have those!

Plugs and their powers - Each plug has a different power, this can vary from simple yet awesome things like +1 move or range etc to a new attack (via the turrets for example or I think the vet but his rules are not set yet) to crazy things like calling in air strikes.

Third faction - best I can say is maybe, but not shortly.

Gameplay options - We are working on some game play scenarios (such as the king of the hill I mentioned last night) right now! As well as some rules for 2v1 and 2v2 games.

Map campaign - We are talking about a map campaign, I don't think it would be based on the large map as the amount of ground covered there is quite huge though it would have its own.

Hm, will have to see more ofn the rules. Like the style... but still on the fence regarding the rules.

Blackadder! Of course!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Descent is a very expensive game due to expansions. There were what, 6-8 expansions by the time they made the move to 2nd Ed? That's a lotta boxes to buy.

I guess I should explain my own reasoning for why I see this thing as worth it:

FFG put out a DOOM boardgame a while back. Over here in Oz it was about AUD$90 (not double what it was in the US, thanksverymuchGW). I own two copies. I have never played it. The miniatures have never left the box. The cards and counters remain unpunched. The tiles, however, have seen more use than almost any set of tiles I own, all for the 40K RPG's. I do not feel that I wasted $180 on a game I've never played because I have certainly got my $180's worth out of those corridor/room tiles.

I own all three editions of Space Hulk, and the reasoning is very similar. I spent $600 back in mid 2005 money getting 1st and 2nd Ed Space Hulk (plus 1st Ed's two expansions). I got tons of minis out of it, and now have nearly 150 Genestealers, and a lot of tiles. Again, all of these have coming handy even if I've not played the game itself.

Sedition Wars? Bought it for the minis and the tiles (of which I bought two sets). I want to make an X-Com board game using the pieces from it (and that gives me an idea - the minis from DOOM could work well here as well). If the game is good, then great, but that'll be a bonus.

To put it all another way, I'm looking for versatility. This game looks like fun, plus the trench tiles could be useful elsewhere. Zombicide is a great game, and I own two tile-sets in case I need to do a detailed abandoned city for any game I may be running. I've spent hundreds on D&D tiles and maps, and I've only ever played D&D twice in my life, but I've used all of them quite a bit.

If a game turns out to be really good then that's great, but that's not the only criteria I base a game's worth on. How much use I can get out of everything in the game, even not within the context of the game, is far more important.

Yeah, but by the same token, Descent was (and is) a fully-fledged, self-contained game. If you want to buy expansions, then go for it. But those are separate products. Doom is supposed to be quite good,

BTW. I do agree with you on Sedition Wars and understand the broader point. I bought 2 sets myself - basically a gakload of figures and 40k-friendly tiles that also have a game attached to them. I also bought close to two full extra sets of Space Hulk 3rd ed tiles for the 40k RPGs myself. With this game, I don't see the box contents as particularly versatile. If you see the tiles as pure awesome, then more power to you. I'm personally not that impressed with them at this stage, and I see no "exterior" use for the figures, as they're very stylised. Unlike Sedition Wars which are much more generic sci-fi.

I don't see any exterior use for these figures either, but like SDE, I think it'll be a fun game. Once we hit the stretch goal that doubles the infantry, then it will be really worth it to me.

 DaveC wrote:
Some bits from Kevin last night

Nice info, Dave.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't see any exterior use for these figures either, but like SDE, I think it'll be a fun game. Once we hit the stretch goal that doubles the infantry, then it will be really worth it to me.

There's still plenty of time for stretch goals. I'm sure by the end of things, it'll all be a better value. Of course, this is assuming that the majority of goals don't come with additional fees.

Dentry wrote:

 DaveC wrote:
Some bits from Kevin last night

Nice info, Dave.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't see any exterior use for these figures either, but like SDE, I think it'll be a fun game. Once we hit the stretch goal that doubles the infantry, then it will be really worth it to me.

There's still plenty of time for stretch goals. I'm sure by the end of things, it'll all be a better value. Of course, this is assuming that the majority of goals don't come with additional fees.

Live in hope, die in vain!

All kidding aside, as this is a CMON KS, I expect a near 50/50 mix of 'free' (at Sweet Spot) stretches and Pay to Play add-ons...

$200K reached. The not-Rommel and not-Patton plugs are in for the core game.

Next goal @ $210K.

 Alpharius wrote:
Live in hope, die in vain!

All kidding aside, as this is a CMON KS, I expect a near 50/50 mix of 'free' (at Sweet Spot) stretches and Pay to Play add-ons...

So far the available options aren't very compelling. If further offerings are as attractive, then I'm in no fear of my pledge ballooning the way it did for Kingdom Death or even Relic Knights.

Yeah, they need to put some more stretch goals or optional purchases up there.

 cincydooley wrote:
Yeah, they need to put some more stretch goals or optional purchases up there.

Hahahah!

Oh man... I love Kickstarters @ Dakka.

One minute it's: "Why aren't there more free included stretch goals?" and then the next it's "They need to put up more paid stretch goals!!!"


I'm not saying I disagree with you here cincydooley, it's just that there will be a litany of people complaining about paid stretch goals and how there are too many the next time they put up another $15 mini.

I'm never going to bitch about not getting free stuff. Ill bitch if I don't think the pledge levels have value to start with (see: through the breach KS). I think out of the box the $90 level is a great value. I thought the Blitzkreig one was initially a bit high. Once I saw the added infantry, I upped my pledge.

Now I just want more reasons to someone money ;-).

Dammit, I need Sedition to get here already to take my mind off this!!

And here's the full amount of stuff for Blitzkrieg level as it stands right now: