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 TheCaptain wrote:
1) If you hide him out of LOS, he likely won't be putting that demo charge where he wants it. Marbo: neutralized.

Out of LOS from the quad gun, not from the demo charge target. If you're playing on a table with a proper amount of terrain you should be able to do it, especially since any random Rhino wreck/etc will also block LOS.

2) Yes; a good general will shoot marbo the vast majority of the time with their quad gun, because he is delivering a Medusa shell to their face.

And a Vendetta is delivering LCs to kill the quad gun and probably nasty troops. And given how many people think a single quad gun is sufficient AA it's not exactly easy for them to just let it die and give up their one effective shot at that Vendetta.

 Ailaros wrote:
... and that's even possible... how? I think that's part of the problem, marbo tends to get hyped well beyond his actual capabilities, much less what he's likely to do in any give game.

Yeah. Marbo is the most awesome unit in the game, but rules-wise he's way over-hyped. He's a cost-effective weapon that consistently does 65 points or more worth of damage, and people need to pay more attention to the "Marbo arrived and killed a couple terminators, I'm glad I brought my one-shot demo charge" instead of the rare times when Marbo does something amazing.

 Ailaros wrote:
But in this case, it was marbo next to a manticore. Odds of survival from that lone seems pretty low, much less from whatever was guarding all that artillery.

This is probably the rare case where you might actually get to keep Marbo alive. It sounds like this was the typical "deploy all my artillery in one corner, behind a giant LOS blocking terrain piece" situation, so it's not surprising that they would be depending on the LOS blocking and not leave a protecting unit behind. End result: there isn't anything that can get into position to shoot Marbo, and the only option would be to turn the Manticore around, give up shooting anything more important, and waste a missile on Marbo (with a high chance of suicide from a bad scatter roll). It would hardly be the first time that someone has ignored an impending threat to a unit to get off a final shot on something more important.

The special characters all have their uses, but most are quite overpriced. Let's break them down and look at their uses:

Lord Castellan Creed: He's good with orders, but little else. He is one of the most pathetic characters in terms of both melee and ranged combat, and even his unique order is very situational. Add the fact that he costs almost as much as a fully kitted CCS, he's only worth it after you fill out the FOC and are focused on orders (i.e. running a pure foot IG list).

Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken: Yes, he has a great statline, and personally I love him (one of ballsiest m.f.s in 40k), but the rules really don't like him. He rarely gets to use his T4, he's CC oriented and has little options to help him. He's great CC support and can be the linchpin of a CC deathstar (Fearless? FC? Counter-attack? Chainfist striking at initiative order? Sign me up!), but that's not what wins games for IG. He's best used with some bodyguards or Nork, and a full melta CCS, with a Priest if at all possible, which makes him a royal point sink that can be ID'd and has T3 until he only has one buddy (or Nork) left.

Gunnery Sgt. Harker: Stonetooth may actually be worth it from time to time, since he gives a squad of veterans stealth and infiltrate/outflank, which is awesome. Stealth stacks with camo cloaks, so while he's expensive, stick him into some ruins or even regular cover and as long as they don't get assaulted, the unit will still be there at the end of the game (go to ground if necessary). That said, he's a lot of points and is downright bad in combat, and his heavy bolter isn't a great weapon. I like to take him with plasma vets with an autocannon and forward sentries, but that's a serious amount of points for one objective.

Sgt. Bastonne: He looks good on paper, and objectively is, but what's his points cost again? He makes three meltaguns/plasmas exceptionally accurate and able to stand their ground, but he has a single T3 wound, for God's sake. While he may not be overcosted ability+equipmentwise, but his equipment and abilities just aren't that useful and his unit is way too easy to kill.

Guardsman Marbo: He isn't here. He isn't. Is he? Aurghhhh... (bleeds to death) Marbo FTW. Mandatory Elite choice. Demo charge, poison, meltabombs, a friggin' SNIPER PISTOL, stealth, coming out of nowehere... He rules, but watch out for Interceptors.

Knight Commander Pask: There's a whole thread on him, just look at it. He's awesome, he turns a Russ into an unstoppable killing machine, but also a priority target. Can be worth it.

Commander Chenkov: Love or hate creature. You take him for Send in the Next Wave and nothing else. He can issue multiple orders too, but the orders aren't that useful. I hate him since I hate losing 1 WS, BS and 2 Ld on Conscripts that can't take any options, but he does make them rush forward, die and return at the end of the game to capture an objective. Spam Whiteshields or steer clear of Chenkov.

Captain Al'Rahem: This guy can be great, especially for foot IG who simply have problems getting up the board, or you can get a lot of Chimeras into the enemy's heart very quickly. Expensive points-wise, and the bigger his platoon, the better. Once he arrives on the battlefield, he's pretty much useless. I've never seen him ID anything worthwhile with his sword, mainly due to his pathetic strength and initiative. His plasma pistol is OK, I guess. Golden for foot IG and can have an entire list built around him.

Nork: Only for Straken CCS's. He's not good for investment protection since he costs more than the investment he's meant to protect. He does add a lot of high strength CC punch, though he can't pentrate armor. Not competitive, and may be wasteful even in friendly games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, I forgot.
Sgt. Kell: If you need reliable orders and bodyguard abilities, he looks good-but he costs more than the average Vox network and is CC oriented, so I don't think he's that great. He does have a PF and a PS and isn't that bad in challenges against some weaker characters, but I'd say he's still overpriced.

Anyway, to avoid this becoming yet another "how awesome is Marbo" thread, I'll leave it at this:

Marbo is the most generally useful IG character. Some people like him, some people hate him, but this is entirely independent of the rest of your list. If you like Marbo you play him all of the time, no matter what list you take. If you don't like him you never play him, no matter what list you take.

Just thought, but with Al'Rahem in one platoon, and Chenkov in another, does it stack to 2 units of recyclable outflanking FRFSRF conscripts?

I made my Marbo with a feathered hat; last game, the CSM player move forward his berserkers, get the Sorcerer to separate from the Berserkers, and then proceed to charge/challenge Marbo, lost his Sorcerer (and making a single wound on Marbo in the process)

Then realized he forgot to move the rest of his army and totally skipped over the shooting phase to purely get his Sorcerer and Marbo into a challenge.

Lesson is: If you got a special character, make sure he stands out; he might just suck up all of your opponent's attention.

 IHateNids wrote:
Just thought, but with Al'Rahem in one platoon, and Chenkov in another, does it stack to 2 units of recyclable outflanking FRFSRF conscripts?

Sure, if you have Chenkov, you can give SitNW to any Conscripts in your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(But they can't outflank the second time they come on, of course)

I play against Ig all the time and the character that gives me the most trouble is Harker. My opponent usually infiltrates him into a position that I wouldn't be going towards and he shoots the crap out of me. The unit also is very hard to kill, most of the time that unit survives.

I think Harker is worth it just for the factor of making you change your plans to try and take out a unit that is very hard to kill with shooting, then if you assault it you are now away from your other units.

Soss wrote:
I play against Ig all the time and the character that gives me the most trouble is Harker. My opponent usually infiltrates him into a position that I wouldn't be going towards and he shoots the crap out of me. The unit also is very hard to kill, most of the time that unit survives.

I think Harker is worth it just for the factor of making you change your plans to try and take out a unit that is very hard to kill with shooting, then if you assault it you are now away from your other units.

1 mediocre assault unit will handle it.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Soss wrote:
I play against Ig all the time and the character that gives me the most trouble is Harker. My opponent usually infiltrates him into a position that I wouldn't be going towards and he shoots the crap out of me. The unit also is very hard to kill, most of the time that unit survives.

I think Harker is worth it just for the factor of making you change your plans to try and take out a unit that is very hard to kill with shooting, then if you assault it you are now away from your other units.

1 mediocre assault unit will handle it.

So by all means include at least one mediocre assault unit

TheCaptain wrote:1 mediocre assault unit will handle it.

But if the vet squad has a heavy bolter and 3 flamers, overwatch can be a bitch. Yeah, in this configuration you're not doing much more than holding an objective, but they do that rather well.

Hedkrakka wrote:Sgt. Kell: If you need reliable orders and bodyguard abilities

Kell doesn't get the bodyguard rule unless he's in a squad with creed.

In any case, Kell does have the buffs, which is kind of nice, and odds are very, very good, you're already bringing a regimental standard, so you can basically discount his points cost by 15.

I think where Kell really shines, though, is in close combat. Unlike straken, you get two different mutli-wound models with a power fist, which is pretty good, as one can handle challenges while the other beats face on the rest of the squad. Plus, it's more power fist attacks. PLUS, he gets a free power weapon as well, which means you don't NEED to use the fist when it's better to attack at-initiative.

He gives a nice little combat boost to a CCS for pretty cheap, and with the flag and better orders on top to boot.

 Ailaros wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:Sgt. Kell: If you need reliable orders and bodyguard abilities

Kell doesn't get the bodyguard rule unless he's in a squad with creed.

In any case, Kell does have the buffs, which is kind of nice, and odds are very, very good, you're already bringing a regimental standard, so you can basically discount his points cost by 15.

I think where Kell really shines, though, is in close combat. Unlike straken, you get two different mutli-wound models with a power fist, which is pretty good, as one can handle challenges while the other beats face on the rest of the squad. Plus, it's more power fist attacks. PLUS, he gets a free power weapon as well, which means you don't NEED to use the fist when it's better to attack at-initiative.

He gives a nice little combat boost to a CCS for pretty cheap, and with the flag and better orders on top to boot.

That's a really interesting idea. Should try it sometime... Whoever soaks up the challenge will be a sad and expensive loss though.

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:1 mediocre assault unit will handle it.

But if the vet squad has a heavy bolter and 3 flamers, overwatch can be a bitch. Yeah, in this configuration you're not doing much more than holding an objective, but they do that rather well.

Sure, in the unlikelihood that someone puts 3 flamers, or god forbid 2 flamers and HF in a harkerstar, overwatch will be ugly, but even then, a 10 man tac squad should be able to assault and wipe them no problem. One or two casualties from the heavy bolter/lasguns, one or two from overwatch, then 6 marines eat 10 guardsmen in CC.

Sure, but how is a 10-man tac squad making it all the way over to a harkerstar?

Part of what makes him good is that you have the rest of your army to damage attacking units down to the point where they're no longer a serious threat against them in close combat, once overwatch has been resolved.

 Ailaros wrote:
Sure, but how is a 10-man tac squad making it all the way over to a harkerstar?

Part of what makes him good is that you have the rest of your army to damage attacking units down to the point where they're no longer a serious threat against them in close combat, once overwatch has been resolved.

But if the rest of your army is doing such a good job screening your objective holders then why bother with a full Harkerstar? Just put a regular infantry squad behind an aegis line for half the points. The Harker unit only makes sense if you're using the weapons effectively (IOW, plasma and a heavy weapon) or can't protect it well enough.

In a HarkerStar, Id use an Autocannon Team, two Plasma Gunners and a Heavy FLamer, with Camo Cloaks. a 2+ save in most ruins will be good for that much Dakka, especially considering its going to be getting Autocannon Shells against the side armour of most vehicles.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:1 mediocre assault unit will handle it.

But if the vet squad has a heavy bolter and 3 flamers, overwatch can be a bitch. Yeah, in this configuration you're not doing much more than holding an objective, but they do that rather well.

Sure, in the unlikelihood that someone puts 3 flamers, or god forbid 2 flamers and HF in a harkerstar, overwatch will be ugly, but even then, a 10 man tac squad should be able to assault and wipe them no problem. One or two casualties from the heavy bolter/lasguns, one or two from overwatch, then 6 marines eat 10 guardsmen in CC.

Not to mention the likelihood that they'll have been firing at the approaching unit already.

 IHateNids wrote:
In a HarkerStar, Id use an Autocannon Team, two Plasma Gunners and a Heavy FLamer, with Camo Cloaks. a 2+ save in most ruins will be good for that much Dakka, especially considering its going to be getting Autocannon Shells against the side armour of most vehicles.

A single heavy flamer is crap.

its just for Overwatch protection to be honest.

 IHateNids wrote:
its just for Overwatch protection to be honest.

Honestly; it won't do enough to be worth it ever. 20 points is far too much to spend on d3 Heavy Bolter hits on overwatch.

Just take another plasmagun. Its more worth it to have those extra plasma shots to shoot someone up while they're coming at you to charge. Maybe, with three plasmaguns, they won't even make it to you.


Overwatch is a backup plan. Backup plans are for people planning to fail.

its actually cheaper as well, fair enough.

When I've taken the harker star, It's been with x3 plasma and camo cloaks. Is really nasty, but it's also 200pts, which is insane for a mere 10 guardsmen. Opponents have often balked at them having a 2+ cover save in ruins, or a +5 just standing in the open, until I mention that price tag.

I've tried lascannons with them occasionally, but it doesn't really mesh with them very well. I might try an autocannon or a heavy bolter, but I often want to keep my Harker squad moving, so I've found that it just slows me down.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
When I've taken the harker star, It's been with x3 plasma and camo cloaks. Is really nasty, but it's also 200pts, which is insane for a mere 10 guardsmen. Opponents have often balked at them having a 2+ cover save in ruins, or a +5 just standing in the open, until I mention that price tag.

I've tried lascannons with them occasionally, but it doesn't really mesh with them very well. I might try an autocannon or a heavy bolter, but I often want to keep my Harker squad moving, so I've found that it just slows me down.

This is my Harker unit. 3x Plasma, an Autocannon, and his Heavy Bolter. Infiltrated in a ruin with a good line of sight and they are worth the points IHMO. It's an awful lot of strong BS4 dakka. 3 AP2 weapons is a nasty threat to terminators, and 5 STR 7 shots can easily crack open most vehicles (whose SIDE armour you will be shooting at, as granted by your sweet infiltration/outflank). No opponent can ignore a unit like this, and since they can't be (easily) shot out of their cover, someone is going to have to assault them. Whoever decides to stride into the open to charge their position becomes food for my Battle Cannons.

I take this unit is almost all my games. It's become almost as "must have" for me as Marbo is.

nevermind

I'm liking the sound of the Harker-star. I built a custom Harker mostly because it fit my theme, not because I planned on using him, but it's sounding like he might actually be a very good investment with my plasmavets.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I'm liking the sound of the Harker-star. I built a custom Harker mostly because it fit my theme, not because I planned on using him, but it's sounding like he might actually be a very good investment with my plasmavets.

Infiltrate + stealth + Camo cloaks (and a Heavy Bolter than can move+shoot) is an EXCELLENT investment for a mere 55 points.

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:1 mediocre assault unit will handle it.

But if the vet squad has a heavy bolter and 3 flamers, overwatch can be a bitch. Yeah, in this configuration you're not doing much more than holding an objective, but they do that rather well.

Hedkrakka wrote:Sgt. Kell: If you need reliable orders and bodyguard abilities

Kell doesn't get the bodyguard rule unless he's in a squad with creed.

In any case, Kell does have the buffs, which is kind of nice, and odds are very, very good, you're already bringing a regimental standard, so you can basically discount his points cost by 15.

I think where Kell really shines, though, is in close combat. Unlike straken, you get two different mutli-wound models with a power fist, which is pretty good, as one can handle challenges while the other beats face on the rest of the squad. Plus, it's more power fist attacks. PLUS, he gets a free power weapon as well, which means you don't NEED to use the fist when it's better to attack at-initiative.

He gives a nice little combat boost to a CCS for pretty cheap, and with the flag and better orders on top to boot.

One thing a lot of people forget is that kell is I4, so he can strike before most thing that aren't marines or eldar if he wants to, I think he's a great addition to a gunline army, pair him with an officer with a powerfist and use it as an orders unit then counter assault with it once the enemy hits your line (whats left of them anyway)

 EmilCrane wrote:

One thing a lot of people forget is that kell is I4, so he can strike before most thing that aren't marines or eldar if he wants to, I think he's a great addition to a gunline army, pair him with an officer with a powerfist and use it as an orders unit then counter assault with it once the enemy hits your line (whats left of them anyway)

One guardsman at i4 is not going to do much of anything.

one guardsman with 3 attacks and a power sword might though.

 IHateNids wrote:
one guardsman with 3 attacks and a power sword might though.

On the charge against MEQ, he'll hit 1.5 times, wound .5 times.

Half a wound against MEQ isn't that hot. Especially for a 95pt Guardsman. You don't want your CCS in melee.

 IHateNids wrote:
one guardsman with 3 attacks and a power sword might though.

Not really. That's 1.5 hits, then 0.75 wounds vs. T3, or 0.5 wounds vs. T4 (STR 3 sucks). End result: you're spending a lot of points to get an extra half a marine kill. Even plasma pistols are a better deal, since dual plasma pistols average 1.1 dead marine per turn, or 0.27 dead marines on overwatch.