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 Shadowclaimer wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
There is no leap of logic there. The Tau had one planet to begin with. They went out and conquered a bunch more. You are saying they did this by fighting defensive actions except that one time? That doesn't make any sense. I don't need to name a specific battle to know that the Tau are imperialistic. As I mentioned, the book you claim to have read is called TAU EMPIRE. Even the Nimbosa offensive was just part of the Second Phase Expansion.

I can do this too, Of coarse the tau eat human babies. They get food from somewhere where do you think that is.

You want to know how the tau can expand without attacking people, well I can think of a few examples. Like when they made an alliance with the kroot and vespin. (Though that did involve killing some orks to defend the kroot)Then there was the gulf expansion that wasn't violent till the tau where forced to defend there new trading partners. Another thing that is mentioned very briefly that most people miss tau terraform some planets to make them habitable. There you go, at least three ways they expand there influence without invading anyone.

I did find another offensive action. Kaurkava (crazy name right) from DoW soul storm.

The Vespid didn't join willingly, two different sourcebooks now have hinted that the Communion Helm attunes the wearer to the "Tau Worldview". Both the Codex and Deathwatch (and DW mentions the Ordos Xenos straight believe this is the case, not think it may be.)

It wasn't a war though. That's what I was getting at. Assuming they are mind control, I wonder how they convinced them to put them on and what the other vespin where thinking seeing there leaders change.

Vespid are sort-of a hive mind, the leaders are in almost absolute control so it'd be irrelevant what the others think. Its noted that the Vespid communicate on a completely different level than Tau do, so it could've been a simple "switcheroo" of handing them the helmet, they try it on, bam, they belong to us, then they in turn turn the rest.

I should note something here for discussion purposes.

What differentiates Orks, 'Nids, and Chaos from Imperials that refuse to join under any circumstance? Why would the Tau be violent against them but not against another perceived threat that's already said no vehemently? (Usually with gunfire)

I'm not going to look up the name, but it's a term that means incompatible with the greater good. It's a judgment rendered by the aun that means we are going to kill you to the last man. It's been declared on the orks, the nids and the reek as far as I know. Mass judgments like that are the job of the aun. They also declared that humans and vespin are to join. (The fire caste was chomping at the bit to wipe out the vesbin.)

Just to explain the Tau Empire:

1.) Most expansion is done by colonizing "empty" planets. Almost all of first expansion was done that way.
2.) Most other uniting with other races was done peacefully and with mutual consent (Kroot, Vespids). We even know a race that chose to be just an ally outside the Tau Empire (Demiurg).

BFG rules wrote:There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection.

3.) Human Imperial population with Tau contacts often choses to trade with Tau, maybe even join the Tau Empire voluntarily. Exchanging an oppressive regime with a free one might incorporate some military force, but freeing humans is not a bad thing per se.
4.) I am currently not aware of another race that offers peace treaties to end a war.

BTW concerning the DW example. I just reread the passages. All planets with human population within the Tau Empire are ruled by humans, keeping most of the social structure as is. This is typical for the Tau Empire that favors autonomous members of its Empire (actually a misnomer, as there is no Tau Emperor). So if you find human behavior on human planets distasteful, blame humans, not Tau.

Re-read them again, Kroot. The Tau rule many of the humans through other humans wherever possible. But where the relationship is closer, the humans live more in accord with Tau principles and those who dissent "disappear.' You and I have talked about this before. And I think the idea here is "trickle down" ideology. You convert the leaders and the leaders will eventually convert the people.

Also, Tau takeover is not "exchanging an oppressive regime with a free one." Dissenters don't disappear in free societies.

Read the novel "For the Emperor", and you will find a completely different picture of how Tau interact with human planets. BTW same author is about to release a second Tau novel this month, featuring a Tau/human alliance.
http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/the-greater-good-hb.html

On topic as to whether its more preferable to live under rule of your own kind versus rule of a different species.

The common person on any human planet the Tau have taken over had zero input in the decision. It was the planetary governor and ruling elite with the backing of the local military force which decided to side with the Tau. They may have been encouraged by anything from outright bribes to threats of physical violence; who knows. I think one of the Caiphis Cain books showed the Tau being kicked off a planet they were setting up trade deals with.

The point is simply this: the average person in the 40k universe has absolutely no control. This creates a general feeling of apathy towards the larger political scene. After all if you have no control over a thing then it's usually best to not bother beating your head against the prevailing tide. The only time a populace will be aroused to start demanding change is when someone through great oratory skills convinces the populace to throw off their apathetic views to pursue a course of action.

Looking at the Philippines, Manuel Roxas, amongst others, was responsible for the final push for independence that had started with Andres Bonifacio many years before. Granted, the independence sought was from separate world powers (first Spanish then American). More tellingly, during that time not all peoples of the Philippines thought independence was good thing, of which some even helped the Americans during the Philippine-American war.

Interestingly there are those today who still think independence was a generally bad idea. Hence the reason for your quote: another orator / leader needed to continue convincing the people that self rule was preferable to benevolent rule regardless of the consequences.

To be fair, I am an American and I believe that a people should be responsible for their own future. At the same time, I think that the same people need a proper historical education in order to understand what does and doesn't work; and more importantly why. Otherwise they are more likely to devolve into dictatorship than to grow into a fully functional democratic system.

The latest rulebook flatly states The Tau are aggressive imperialists. They try the nice guy approach first but if that doesn't work you will soon find yourself at the mercy of the Fire Caste.

Anyways, that is not even the topic. Overall The Tau Empire is a nicer place to live than The Imperium. Some Imperial worlds are quite nice, but many are living hells. Also, whatever theTau taxation system is is probably more favorable than Imperial tithes. Everyone likes lower taxes right? Humans are not complicated.

I've always wanted someone to write about Tau society, are the species integrated or are they segregated?

So would a kroot or human not be allowed in the "Tau's" bar and have to go around the back?

Would someone be "in the closet" about wanting to do something outside their caste?

 Mr Nobody wrote:
I've always wanted someone to write about Tau society, are the species integrated or are they segregated?

So would a kroot or human not be allowed in the "Tau's" bar and have to go around the back?

Would someone be "in the closet" about wanting to do something outside their caste?

They tend to live in different citys or even different planets.

Off hand, I can't recall any thing about tau wanting to change castes. The closet thing I can recall the main character of fire warrior being ashamed of how good he is at killing and feeling like he dosen't fit in the GG as well as he should. (Considering the story, he is very very good at killing.) I haven't read fire warrior though so don't quote me on that.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:


Also when someone's pointing a railgun at your head, you usually do what they say.

This made my day

EDIT: Seriously though, the Tau means of expansion is nothing less than subversion of legitimate Imperial authority by means of economic warfare and propaganda to 'persuade' the locals to rebel against their masters, and when the Imperium moves in to restore order, the Tau arrive to claim the world as their own. It really is no different from 19th Century Imperialism; you build up your influence, nudge the locals to secede, when authority arrives, you come in smelling like a rose to 'save' them from the 'oppressors'.

These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Also, whatever theTau taxation system is is probably more favorable than Imperial tithes. Everyone likes lower taxes right? Humans are not complicated.

That's because the Tau Empire isn't an empire stretching across the galaxy and is under constant siege.

 Manchu wrote:
These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

From the Ciaphas Cain novels, and from my own analysis of the Imperium's political structure, the Imperium would be closer to a federation rather than an empire on the fringes. Less controlling, but as a result, insurgents, malcontents, and recidivists would breed like vermin.

I'd also assume Tau bureaucracy works a bit more efficient. Starting with people actually using computers and interstellar communications in an efficient way, rather than robes praying to the holy ON-rune of a cogitator, and half-crazed mutants propelling their thoughts through a daemon-infested warpspace.

 Lynata wrote:
I'd also assume Tau bureaucracy works a bit more efficient. Starting with people actually using computers and interstellar communications in an efficient way, rather than robes praying to the holy ON-rune of a cogitator, and half-crazed mutants propelling their thoughts through a daemon-infested warpspace.

The difference in size between the Imperium and the Tau Empire is answer enough.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:


Also when someone's pointing a railgun at your head, you usually do what they say.

This made my day

EDIT: Seriously though, the Tau means of expansion is nothing less than subversion of legitimate Imperial authority by means of economic warfare and propaganda to 'persuade' the locals to rebel against their masters, and when the Imperium moves in to restore order, the Tau arrive to claim the world as their own. It really is no different from 19th Century Imperialism; you build up your influence, nudge the locals to secede, when authority arrives, you come in smelling like a rose to 'save' them from the 'oppressors'.

Yep reminds me of home.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
I'd also assume Tau bureaucracy works a bit more efficient. Starting with people actually using computers and interstellar communications in an efficient way, rather than robes praying to the holy ON-rune of a cogitator, and half-crazed mutants propelling their thoughts through a daemon-infested warpspace.

The difference in size between the Imperium and the Tau Empire is answer enough.

You can't just use size as an excuse.

nomotog wrote:

Yep reminds me of home.

What?

You can't just use size as an excuse.

Actually, I can. Back during the Great Crusade, the Imperial Administration was quite efficient, simultaneously managing the Imperium and conducting offensive campaigns across the galaxy. However, as the Imperium continued to grow larger and larger, they began to have difficulty doing so. The Council of Terra sought to address this by standardizing the Imperial Army (as shown by autonomous military entities like the Saturnine Fleet being absorbed into the Imperial Army at the eve of the Horus Heresy) and establishing the Imperial Tithe. However, the problem with the Imperium's size was that less than completely reliable FTL travel and communications via Warp travel and Astro-telepathy was simply insufficient for the task. That was one reason the Emperor wanted to gain access to the Webway: a completely reliable means of FTL travel and communications, something that would be needed to continue to effectively govern an empire stretching across the entire galaxy.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Yep reminds me of home.

What?

You know it just reminds me of the way America raised it's empire.

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Yep reminds me of home.

What?

You know it just reminds me of the way America raised it's empire.

I was thinking more along the lines of the British Empire and other 19th Century colonial powers.

EDIT: In fact, the Tau belief in that everyone should submit to the Greater Good and by extension the Ethereals disturbingly reminds me of the 'White Man's Burden'.

 Lynata wrote:
I'd also assume Tau bureaucracy works a bit more efficient. Starting with people actually using computers and interstellar communications in an efficient way, rather than robes praying to the holy ON-rune of a cogitator, and half-crazed mutants propelling their thoughts through a daemon-infested warpspace.

Ya but it's not as fun. No seriously. it's only more efficient because The Tau Empire is smaller. If the Tau were Imperium sized their fancy communicators wouldn't even be close to efficient as mutant mind beams.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
I'd also assume Tau bureaucracy works a bit more efficient. Starting with people actually using computers and interstellar communications in an efficient way, rather than robes praying to the holy ON-rune of a cogitator, and half-crazed mutants propelling their thoughts through a daemon-infested warpspace.

Ya but it's not as fun. No seriously. it's only more efficient because The Tau Empire is smaller. If the Tau were Imperium sized their fancy communicators wouldn't even be close to efficient as mutant mind beams.

My thoughts exactly. AFAIK, the Tau communicate via courier ship, which while certainly more efficient than Astro-telepathy given the small size of their empire, but would be utterly useless in an empire the size of the Imperium. The Imperium uses courier ships too, but only up to sector-level, and even then not for priority and other high-level communications, which are transmitted via Astro-telepathy.

 Manchu wrote:
These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

Just Taros. Pretty normal planet, a little dry. Essentially The Imperium lost that world because The Tau paid for their ore whereas The Imperium tithed it.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Yep reminds me of home.

What?

You know it just reminds me of the way America raised it's empire.

I was thinking more along the lines of the British Empire and other 19th Century colonial powers.

EDIT: In fact, the Tau belief in that everyone should submit to the Greater Good and by extension the Ethereals disturbingly reminds me of the 'White Man's Burden'.

The difference is that America got to use the freeing the oppressed people excuse that the tau like to use too.

I noted that too. One of the reasons I always kind of sigh a little when people call tau communist because they don't feel that advanced culturally. Like you said they feel more like colonial powers.

The European colonials often used "freeing the oppressed". They came in, made deals with the local tribes, and helped them overthrow the other tribes who might not have been willing/lucky enough to deal.

People call the Tau communist because it gets repeated over and over, and most people don't understand what communism actually is, lol. It wouldn't be the first thing that gets repeated over and over on 40K forums and gets generally accepted as true. Look at Mat Ward hate. The average Ward hater can't actually express in coherent terms why he hates Mat Ward. He just knows he is supposed to. The Tau are the same way. Them's commies, so them's commies.

nomotog wrote:

The difference is that America got to use the freeing the oppressed people excuse that the tau like to use too.

Except in America's case it usually is entirely justified. Right now though, I wish you guys would leave the Middle East and start busting heads in China. Tensions are rising here in the Pacific with those damn commies and their blue water ambitions.

I noted that too. One of the reasons I always kind of sigh a little when people call tau communist because they don't feel that advanced culturally. Like you said they feel more like colonial powers.

Maybe instead of anime fan space communists we should use anime fan space imperialists. The Imperium wouldn't lose anything, since the Imperium has the title of Catholic Nazi Communists IN SPAAACE!!!

The Tau are Socially Engineered Anime Mecha Fascist Oligarchical Utilitarians in Space, if you need a name for them.

Too long

 Manchu wrote:
These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

Officially, nothing, but we can deduce that they aren't very wealthy and so don't have any nice toys. So if someone offers to sell tech at a low price, you'd might become a little chummy with them.

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

Officially, nothing, but we can deduce that they aren't very wealthy and so don't have any nice toys. So if someone offers to sell tech at a low price, you'd might become a little chummy with them.

How can we deduce that?
All we can deduce is that they are near the Damocles Gulf.

If you're in a situation where you are near an area that an armed force is staking claim to--you can be fairly certain that you would start whistling along with their tune unless you are really set in your ways.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

Officially, nothing, but we can deduce that they aren't very wealthy and so don't have any nice toys. So if someone offers to sell tech at a low price, you'd might become a little chummy with them.

How can we deduce that?
All we can deduce is that they are near the Damocles Gulf.

If you're in a situation where you are near an area that an armed force is staking claim to--you can be fairly certain that you would start whistling along with their tune unless you are really set in your ways.

I thought, with some exceptions, that core worlds had more wealth and trade than fringe worlds.

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

Officially, nothing, but we can deduce that they aren't very wealthy and so don't have any nice toys. So if someone offers to sell tech at a low price, you'd might become a little chummy with them.

How can we deduce that?
All we can deduce is that they are near the Damocles Gulf.

If you're in a situation where you are near an area that an armed force is staking claim to--you can be fairly certain that you would start whistling along with their tune unless you are really set in your ways.

I thought, with some exceptions, that core worlds had more wealth and trade than fringe worlds.

Where did you get that impression from?

It's just kind of what you expect from a fringe world. They are on the fringe and the fringe is never as nice as the core. Except some times the fringe has some nice lace or beading