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 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

Officially, nothing, but we can deduce that they aren't very wealthy and so don't have any nice toys. So if someone offers to sell tech at a low price, you'd might become a little chummy with them.

How can we deduce that?
All we can deduce is that they are near the Damocles Gulf.

If you're in a situation where you are near an area that an armed force is staking claim to--you can be fairly certain that you would start whistling along with their tune unless you are really set in your ways.

I thought, with some exceptions, that core worlds had more wealth and trade than fringe worlds.

Where did you get that impression from?

Its an understandable inference to make that the Imperium's core colonies would be more prosperous and well defended than its outer colonies.

The problem is that you're making an inference that they are "colonies" in the traditional sense.

And the Cadian Gate begs to differ about the "well defended" bit.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The problem is that you're making an inference that they are "colonies" in the traditional sense.

My apologies. Imperial territories would be more appropriate.

And the Cadian Gate begs to differ about the "well defended" bit.

There was nothing the Imperium could do to stop the Warp Storms from erupting and disrupting naval operations across the sector, pushing the Imperial supply lines and by extension, the defenses of the whole region to the limit. In any case, the Imperial Navy has achieved undisputed control over the region's airspace, and the Chaos forces on Cadia are under constant counter-attack. Belis Corona remains operational despite the loss of the Agripinaa Sector, which may or may not be the focus of an Imperial Crusade sooner or later.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The problem is that you're making an inference that they are "colonies" in the traditional sense.

My apologies. Imperial territories would be more appropriate.

Exactly.

And the Cadian Gate begs to differ about the "well defended" bit.

There was nothing the Imperium could do to stop the Warp Storms from erupting and disrupting naval operations across the sector, pushing the Imperial supply lines and by extension, the defenses of the whole region to the limit. In any case, the Imperial Navy has achieved undisputed control over the region's airspace, and the Chaos forces on Cadia are under constant counter-attack. Belis Corona remains operational despite the loss of the Agripinaa Sector, which may or may not be the focus of an Imperial Crusade sooner or later.

You missed the point.

If the Cadian Gate were not present, that area of space would likely be considered a backwater. A planet (or sector) is not only important because of its material wealth but also because of its location and strategic value. As it stands now, the only value the Imperium has with the Damocles Gulf is as a buffer between themselves and the Tau Empire--which is also looked upon as a buffer against the Tyranid advances.

 Kanluwen wrote:

As it stands now, the only value the Imperium has with the Damocles Gulf is as a buffer between themselves and the Tau Empire--which is also looked upon as a buffer against the Tyranid advances.

Well, with the Zeist Campaign and all, it would appear that the Astartes are keeping an eye on the region. Pretty sure that while Tau can handle the Imperial Guard disturbingly well, they can't do the same for the Space Marines.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

As it stands now, the only value the Imperium has with the Damocles Gulf is as a buffer between themselves and the Tau Empire--which is also looked upon as a buffer against the Tyranid advances.

Well, with the Zeist Campaign and all, it would appear that the Astartes are keeping an eye on the region. Pretty sure that while Tau can handle the Imperial Guard disturbingly well, they can't do the same for the Space Marines.

This is why Tau can't fight Space Marines.

Its broken

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Tau are Socially Engineered Anime Mecha Fascist Oligarchical Utilitarians in Space, if you need a name for them.

The SEAM FOUS maybe? or SEAMFOUIS if perhaps you say it with a French accented English?

The Greater Good = The Blue Aliens' Burden

When I joined the guard they gave me a lousy lasrifle

Now that I defected I'm rocking a pulse rifle, good choice.

MarsNZ wrote:
When I joined the guard they gave me a lousy lasrifle

Now that I defected I'm rocking a pulse rifle, good choice.

Its different in the Navy. The Tau have good ordnance and turrets, but weak broadsides. The Imperial Navy on the other hand, has solid, all-round vessels. Hmmm...well, its just like the old song says: "Join the Navy!"

one of my buddies call tau the future of the catholic church

MarsNZ wrote:
When I joined the guard they gave me a lousy lasrifle

Now that I defected I'm rocking a pulse rifle, good choice.

Except the vast majority of Gue'vasa are still using Imperial kit.

So it would be:

When I joined the Guard they gave me a lousy lasrifle.

Now that I defected, I'm still using my lousy lasrifle.

The Tau are not stupid. They do not just go handing around highly advanced kit to the first person who jumps at their offer of joining.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Greater Good = The Blue Aliens' Burden

That's exactly what it comes down to, well put!

 Manchu wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Greater Good = The Blue Aliens' Burden

That's exactly what it comes down to, well put!

Of course, the problem is that the Imperium are the Belgians in Kongo while the Tau are the French. ( not that French colonialism was in any way or shape nice )

The Imperium are far worse than that. I've never understood this contest to see who was worse, Imperium or Tau. It could not be any more clear that the Imperium is worse by far. Even if the Tau were genocidal as a matter of principal, what could their tiny little empire ever accomplish in the timescale of the 40k codex fluff? The answer is Nothing.

So I think we can drop that. Now and forever. (I wish.)

But of course this doesn't mean the Tau gak rainbows and sunshine, as some like to claim. Their society may well be utopian from their POV but their POV is alien after all. They do not have a free society. They do not have an egalitarian society. Their version of kind imperialism is not only condescending but frankly terrifying. They may not have mind control helmets or pheromones but they do insist on controlling your mind nonetheless. The insist you believe in the Greater Good and if your friends and family get out of line they insist that you believe such people never existed. They are creepy alien thought police.

Did you ever watch the Last Airbender show? I imagine that Tau worlds are kind of like Ba Sing Se and the Tau Water Caste have a branch that works like the Dai Li. "There is no war in Ba Sing Se."

 Manchu wrote:
The Imperium are far worse than that. I've never understood this contest to see who was worse, Imperium or Tau. It could not be any more clear that the Imperium is worse by far. Even if the Tau were genocidal as a matter of principal, what could their tiny little empire ever accomplish in the timescale of the 40k codex fluff? The answer is Nothing.

So I think we can drop that. Now and forever. (I wish.)

But of course this doesn't mean the Tau gak rainbows and sunshine, as some like to claim. Their society may well be utopian from their POV but their POV is alien after all. They do not have a free society. They do not have an egalitarian society. Their version of kind imperialism is not only condescending but frankly terrifying. They may not have mind control helmets or pheromones but they do insist on controlling your mind nonetheless. The insist you believe in the Greater Good and if your friends and family get out of line they insist that you believe such people never existed. They are creepy alien thought police.

Did you ever watch the Last Airbender show? I imagine that Tau worlds are kind of like Ba Sing Se and the Tau Water Caste have a branch that works like the Dai Li. "There is no war in Ba Sing Se."

So they are totalitarian, just like they have always been

I don't know what your point is.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't know what your point is.

There is no specific point. I merely meant to say that the Tau are and have always been totalitarian in nature. This isn't even necesarily a product of their alien nature, totalitarian regimes are well known on earth too,
but, just like it was for many real life societies, a result of their history. The only alien aspect is that the Tau seem to have an unusualy high acceptance for living under such a regime.

 KingDeath wrote:
The only alien aspect is that the Tau seem to have an unusualy high acceptance for living under such a regime.

You say that like it's a small point. The issue in the thread is "why would non-Tau accept the Greater Good?" We have been talking mostly about humans. It seems to me that humans don't do well under totalitarian systems. Totalitarianism is not good for humans. In fact, many people have chimed in ITT to say something like "humans defect to the Tau because the Imperium is so bloody awful," i.e., it is totalitarian.

So I said: well, they're in for a nasty shock because the Tau are even more totalitarian PLUS they're aliens. So these defectors are expecting a better life but what they really get is alien overlords with a baffling notion that it's only rational to be grateful for totalitarian oppression. Of course, in their bizarre alien brains, there is no such thing as oppression in the Tau Empire. Everyone is simply cooperating because that's what makes sense. Who are you to question your role? Why would you even do so, gue'vesa? Why do you make us punish you, gue'vesa, when you could simply cooperate with everyone?

It's not like humans don't know how to cooperate. Of course they do. The Imperium would not be possible otherwise. But we cooperate on our terms, according to our understanding of cooperation. In human terms, cooperation is not the same thing as totalitarianism. We can work together without living as slaves to the state ideology. Just because the Imperium is a totalitarian state doesn't mean humans can't understand non-totalitarian concepts. And in fact the Imperium is kind of ramschackle exactly because humans simply don't jive with totalitarianism. We tend to resent thought control, among other things. That's why there has to be an Inquisition but also notice that the Inquisition is a high level organization that cannot reach very far down into society, at least not in a broad way

The Tau, by contrast, seem to have no trouble with totalitarianism and thought control. It seems completely natural to them -- at least ever since those inexplicably charming Ethereal showed up. Before that, the Tau fought all these wars with each other. Gee, things are so much better now -- nowadays the Tau fight all these wars against other species. Much more efficient! To the Tau, the Imperium must seem like a terrible mess. And when they come into contact with humans, they must think "well, of course they don't want to live in that society." But they're not saying "no one would want to live in such a totalitarian society" -- rather, they're saying "no one would want to live in such a sloppy society when they could live in an ultra-efficient totalitarian society like ours."

As to other species, why would they accept the Greater Good? I don't know, they're aliens, too. Aliens are weird by definition. Maybe the Vespids do need mind-controlling. Maybe they don't. You can never tell with xenos. And the Kroot? They're pretty easy-going it seems. Greater Good? Yeah, sounds fine. But hold on, I'm currently eating my dead grandpa. Aliens! Who knows?

If Tau are so damn totalitarian, why don't they force a caste system on other societies? Why do they prefer autonomous planets ruling themselves (by their own people)? Why do the Kroot live as they please (well, except eating Tau )?

For one thing: Tau don't have the numbers to actually controll their Empire in a totalitarian way, even if they wanted.
And please read about Utilitarianism in my sig, if you want to understand The Greater Good. It is not a religion.

Where did you people read that the tau are totalitarian? We only know one thing about government. That it's something you do when you retire.

Then as mentioned most species govern themselves.

 Kroothawk wrote:
If Tau are so damn totalitarian, why don't they force a caste system on other societies?

Who says they do not? We don't have enough background to make this judgement.

Why do they prefer autonomous planets ruling themselves (by their own people)?

Because they do not have the resources to "rule" them.

Why do the Kroot live as they please (well, except eating Tau )?

Because the Kroot hide most of their mercenary activities from the Tau. This is not new.

@Kroothawk:

Tau prefer efficiency in the classic colonial sense: the masters get all the benefits while the slaves shoulder all the burdens. If the humans can govern themselves, that is efficient. But the governors of the human governors of the humans are the Tau. And the Tau tutelaries expect their human clients to be on board with the Greater Good ideology. Those who are not on board vanish. And it does seem that the Tau force the caste system on client-species where possible/necessary -- IIRC the DW book mentions a human member of the Water Caste. The Kroot live as they please because the Kroot do a good job of pretending to be "dumb natives." The Tau, like archetypal imperial masters, are happy to believe that they are bettering these noble savages, at least as much as possible (which the Kroot lead them to believe isn't much).

I don't know why you think the Tau don't have a large enough population to administer their empire. Their empire is quite small and their population seems exceedingly fertile and healthy. Also, I didn't say the Greater Good was a religion. But it is a doctrine and the Tau are indoctrinated and the Tau do attempt to indoctrinate their clients.

Where did you read that Manchu?

I started a thread discussing it a while back here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458234.page

 Kroothawk wrote:
If Tau are so damn totalitarian, why don't they force a caste system on other societies? Why do they prefer autonomous planets ruling themselves (by their own people)? Why do the Kroot live as they please (well, except eating Tau )?

For one thing: Tau don't have the numbers to actually controll their Empire in a totalitarian way, even if they wanted.
And please read about Utilitarianism in my sig, if you want to understand The Greater Good. It is not a religion.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:


I started a thread discussing it a while back here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458234.page

Page numbers?

nomotog wrote:
Page numbers?

Are you kidding? You participated in the last thread. Look it up yourself, I am at work.

In fact, to quote you:

nomotog wrote:
It's also creepy because your having an alien entity judging from their own rules. That's just unfair, but it's also something that humans do a lot. Any time I want to make the tau evil, I play up the alien judgment aspect.

You had a very coherent point back then.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
If Tau are so damn totalitarian, why don't they force a caste system on other societies?

Who says they do not? We don't have enough background to make this judgement.

Why do they prefer autonomous planets ruling themselves (by their own people)?

Because they do not have the resources to "rule" them.

Why do the Kroot live as they please (well, except eating Tau )?

Because the Kroot hide most of their mercenary activities from the Tau. This is not new.

Yes there is a lack of background information, but that's not stopped you making a sweeping statement about how Totalitarian the Tau are with zero evidence.

I can point to examples in imperial fluff of Hive Workers who live their whole lives in 1 factory doing the same job, or arcoflaggelation or becoming Servitors or servo Skulls. The same cannot be said of the Tau. Their is nothing to say they have restrictions in their career choice, other than what we have today, you need to be qualified to do a job, and if that puts a quasi caste system in place does not mean they enforce the genetic control the Tau place on their own castes.
In essence we don't know what the Tau do, but we do have an idea on how brutal the Imperium in some cases, You do a job because you were born to the hab that work in that factory.
They undoubtedly use somewhat distateful methods at times, but iv heard absolutely nothing to suggest that they are as oppressive or brutal as the Imperium. But calling them more Totalitarian is pure assumption.

You can't assume, they force a caste system on other races, the water caste diplomat human mentioned, if that man was a merchant or diplomat prior to this then he will have more contact with other merchants, does not mean the same restictions to the castes apply to him.

I was a tau fan for a long time, without actually getting any, . if you read through their codex a few times, you understand that the modern ethereals are corrupt little buggers. however the 1st ethereals meant well and they stopped the Mont'tau by saying that all had 2 live in harmony for a greater good. the tau, it seems, took that a bit literally.