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 Admiral Valerian wrote:
what makes Humans even more dangerous is that they have decided to selfishly claim it for themselves and themselves alone

Yes, the monodominant orthodoxy taught throughout the Imperium holds that Mankind can only survive if it rules all and can only rule all by obliterating every other sentient race. The fact that the Imperium does in fact rule the galaxy, even besieged by so many terrible threats, is evidence of just how dangerous humanity is.

 Manchu wrote:
We don't know. This is just a fairy tale, albeit a horrific one. Best not to try and use 40k as a lens to investigate IRL issues.

I know. Just pointing out that despite its science fantasy veneer, the Imperium actually depicts Human nature in its purest form, whether good (selfless acts of bravery, heroism, and self-sacrifice) or evil (inhuman acts of torture, genocide, and callousness).

EDIT: I just realized something. Despite all the talk about the Imperium weakening, its the opposite. The Imperium has actually gotten stronger each time it overcomes a crisis (those Istvaanite Radicals may have a point after all), and the only reason the Imperium seems to be falling is because all its enemies are ganging up on it all at once. Oh, and the Golden Throne failing...which may or may not result in the Emperor either getting upgraded to divinity, resurrected, or simply dying (which would result in galactic butthurt).

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
the Imperium actually depicts Human nature in its purest form

Again, it's just fiction. If you want to study human nature, you'd better look to real history and philosophy rather than 40k.

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Some people also speculate that Farsight is under the influence of Chaos via the Dawn Blade.

Alternatively, the ruins wherein the Dawn Blade was found made him realize how cruel the galaxy really was, and together with the hardships he and his soldiers went through, made him realize how the Greater Good and the Ethereals would ultimately be counter-productive to the Tau as a species.

Na he thought that before he even found the blade.

He did?

He was annoyed by the leadership back on Tau long before he found the Dawn Blade.

 Manchu wrote:
He was annoyed by the leadership back on Tau long before he found the Dawn Blade.

Hmmm...let me guess: bureaucratic pandering and dogmatic resistance to his stratagems?

It stems from his battles with the orks. He didn't get the reinforcements he needed. That and he is also a xenophobe.

nomotog wrote:
He didn't get the reinforcements he needed.

I'm apalled. Even the Terran Imperial Administration knows better than to let a Waaagh!!! build up strength and to therefore deploy as many troops as possible before too many of them band together.

That and he is also a xenophobe.

Not sure if I should impressed or not.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
The Tau codex does not state that Ethereals control its minions via pheremones. I wish people would stop pretending it did.

The "pheremone control" concept is a theory. It;s never stated to be a fact, just musings from the Imperium.

And your point is?

The point is that people who say "waaah ethereals use pheremones to brainwash people" are incorrect. It's never stated that they do so.

It's just part of this forlorn hope that Tau may be grimdark. When really, they just plain aren't grimdark. Not compared to the rest of the Galaxy. They're basically as grimdark as real-life, modern day United States is. Take that as you will.


And from an effiency standpoint, pheremone-control doesn't make sense. Using pheromones to mind-control armies consisting of millions fighting across a solar system would be woefully inefficient.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
The Tau codex does not state that Ethereals control its minions via pheremones. I wish people would stop pretending it did.

The "pheremone control" concept is a theory. It;s never stated to be a fact, just musings from the Imperium.

And your point is?

The point is that people who say "waaah ethereals to brainwash people" are incorrect. It's never stated that they do so.

So...re-education and propaganda (which more often than not involves subliminal messaging) isn't brain washing?

Re-education and propoganda = using pheremones to mind-control people?

edit- All armies in the history of everything have used propaganda and re-educating. The US uses propaganda and re-education in this very day to get public support for whatever war it feels like shoving down our throats. Wouldn't consider that mind-control though, anymore than I would consider your history teacher telling you that Colombus was a genocidal monster is "brain-washing".

BlaxicanX wrote:
Re-education and propoganda = using pheremones?

Of course not.

BlaxicanX wrote:

The point is that people who say "waaah ethereals to brainwash people" are incorrect. It's never stated that they do so.

But this is wrong. The Ethereals do brain-wash others, even if they may not be using pheromones to do so. There are other means to do so: the aforementioned re-education and propaganda, the mind-control helmets I've been hearing about, etc. Heck, with their advanced tech, I wouldn't be surprised if they use brain implants to control non-Ethereal and non-Tau leaders.

All armies in the history of everything have used propaganda and re-educating. The US uses propaganda and re-education in this very day to get public support for whatever war it feels like shoving down our throats. Wouldn't consider that mind-control though, anymore than I would consider your history teacher telling you that Colombus was a genocidal monster is "brain-washing".

I never said the Imperium doesn't do it.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
But this is wrong.

The statement says "waaah ethereals to brainwash people". There is supposed to be two words in-between that "ethereals" and "to brainwash people".

The Ethereals do brain-wash others, even if they may not be using pheromones to do so. There are other means to do so: the aforementioned re-education and propaganda, the mind-control helmets I've been hearing about, etc. Heck, with their advanced tech, I wouldn't be surprised if they use brain implants to control non-Ethereal and non-Tau leaders.

I'd like to see the objective proof that this "mind-control technology" exists, otherwise I just chalk it up to neckbeards who are so offended by the concept of a faction that isn't mindlessly grimdark in their ultra-grimdark 40K universe, that they feel the need to make up theories. -shrug-

I never said the Imperium doesn't do it.

I never said the Imperium. I said "All armies in the history of everything".

BlaxicanX wrote:
I'd like to see the objective proof that this "mind-control technology" exists, otherwise I just chalk it up to neckbeards who are so offended by the concept of a faction that isn't mindlessly grimdark in their ultra-grimdark 40K universe, that they feel the need to make up theories. -shrug-

Manchu posted proof of brain-washing (which may or may not involve said technology) in the previous pages of this same thread. It's up to you to look them up.

Checking, I don't see what you're talking about.

Kanluwen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
If Tau are so damn totalitarian, why don't they force a caste system on other societies?

Who says they do not? We don't have enough background to make this judgement.

I can believe that you are serious, or you actually don't know anything about Tau background.
Let's see:
Kroot: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Vespids: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Demiurg: No caste system implemented. Not even tried. Not even part of the Empire, just independent allies.
Taros (humans): No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Gravalax (humans, novel "For the Emperor"): No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Deathwatch planets: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
(...)Any other known non-Tau population in the background: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.

We don't know any of this. You are speculating.

Informed people know a lot about the Kroot society (e.g. Andy Hoare background text). And it doesn't have a caste system.
Even a short look at 40kWiki shows that in the Tau EMpire only Tau are subdivided into castes: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tau_Empire

 Manchu wrote:
The human quoted is titled "Gue'la Water Caste Liaison." I admit this could refer to him either being a member of the human Water Caste or a human liaison to the Tau Water Caste. Since either interpretation would not contradict any other published material I know of, either interpretation is possible.

Actually, humans can't chose to become members of a Tau subrace, so it is not a water caste member being a liaison to nothing but a human being a liaison to the Tau Water caste.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Informed people know a lot about the Kroot society (e.g. Andy Hoare background text). And it doesn't have a caste system.

By all means, post some quotations from sources published by GW backing up this point. And post some backing the point that no other Tau client race uses the Tau caste system, since that was your claim. FWIW, I don't think the Kroot use the Caste system but I would really like to see you prove this using a GW source and especially prove your larger point that the Tau never force their ways on any of their client species.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Actually, humans can't chose to become members of a Tau subrace

The Tau castes are now sub-races? I understand there are physiological differences between them -- for example, Air Caste Tau are tall and thin. Just like void-born humans tend to be tall and thin compared to humans from high-G worlds. But Air Caste doesn't mean "tall and thin" -- it means "those guys who pilot ships and so on." Just like Fire Caste means "those warrior guys, etc." Caste is not a statement of sub-race but rather a statement of one's generalized role in the Greater Good.

The best argument you can make on the race card, which you yourself apparently haven't thought of, is that the Tau language seems to conflate in use the category of species for non-Tau with the categories of Caste for Tau, at least regarding humans. For example, human grunt soldiers would not be called "shas'la" but rather "gue'la." Even this argument is weak, however. We only explicitly have denotative and little if any connotative understanding of Tau vocabulary. Tau apparently call both humans who do and do not work with them "gue'la" so perhaps that term indicates a human without a Caste or, in other words, is a general term for human being -- something like the Eldar word "mon'keigh." This use seems supported by the DW corebook.

As a matter of personal preference, because I simply don't have any sources to back it up, I don't think humans -- or at least all humans -- living under Tau rule are organized by the Caste system. The Tau seem to think of humans as barbaric and prefer to let them rule each other as much as possible. So that leaves the "favored" humans, those who are most loyal to the Greater Good and rule other humans on behalf of their alien masters. This class of humans could be organized by Caste. It would make sense in that such organization would come naturally to the Tau mind. But I like the idea (again, totally unsupported by fluff) that for Tau, Caste signified the deepest participation in the Greater Good. Since the Tau seem to suspect even the "favored" humans, who do sometimes dissent, I'd reason that they think humans "aren't ready for Caste."

Hang on. You can't prove a negative like that to say Tau divide up into castes. A lack of evidence suggests not, as the caste system is specificly stated to be for Tau. No mention of auxilliaries being subjected to it in any publication.
I suggest you find supporting evidence for that being the case instead of setting someone on an impossible errand for evidence that doesn't exist as there is no mention of it. As for water caste liason, its bound to be some humans job to liase with the Tau, doesn't mean he's a water caste.

Also the Tau do differentiate.

Tau auxilliary is Gue'vesa'la or Gue'vesa'ui etc depending on rank. (Tau human auxilliary by andy hoare) Gue'la is human (codex:tau 3rd ed).

The tau are probably sub races, each having evolved in a slightly different way. This system is kept intact by use of the caste system.

My own personal take is that no race is subjected to the caste system as their is no point in preventing genetic cross over. But certain jobs nessecitate co-operating with a certain cast more than others, merchant classes would likely cooperate frequently with water caste and ex navy with the aircaste. They may be encouraged to stay within their area of expertise however for the grrater good.

 Eetion wrote:
Hang on. You can't prove a negative like that to say Tau divide up into castes.

Amazingly enough, I already dealt with this. No worries, we can review:

 Manchu wrote:
The human quoted is titled "Gue'la Water Caste Liaison." I admit this could refer to him either being a member of the human Water Caste or a human liaison to the Tau Water Caste. Since either interpretation would not contradict any other published material I know of, either interpretation is possible.

In English, the person called the French Ambassador is not the ambassador to France but rather the ambassador from France. At the same time, the person called the tourist guide is not a tourist. With respect to "Gue'la Water Caste Liaison," the English language allows either meaning. The only clue we have is the word "gue'la," which as you yourself admit just means "human." So until Kroothawk or you provide us with some definite proof that no Tau client race ever uses the Caste system, this issue is totally within the realm of personal preference. I am not trying to prove a negative; I am merely pointing out that no positive proof seems to exist.

As for Gue'vesa -- it means "human helper" and refers to human auxiliaries. It could also be, although I can't go rifling through sources at the moment, that all humans who cooperate with (that is, help) the Tau are human helpers (gue'vesa) rather than just humans (gue'la).

 Eetion wrote:
My own personal take is that no race is subjected to the caste system as their is no point in preventing genetic cross over.

That actually doesn't make much sense. The Caste system does seem to have a eugenic function: controlled breeding allows each Caste to exhibit the physical traits most desirable for that Caste's role in the Greater Good. I can't see why the Tau wouldn't breed humans this way (since we know they do medically manage human populations through sterilization) -- perhaps they do but it is a long-term project with little current result. The Tau do seem to evolve more quickly than humans. So let's turn to a species that evolves even faster than the Tau -- the Kroot.

All other things being equal, the eugenic aspect of the Caste system could be imposed upon the Kroot to great effect. Physiological change that usually requires generational breeding can occur within an individual Kroot lifespan. Then again, this also means a heavy-handed eugenic approach to Kroot society like the Caste system isn't really necessary just by virtue of the speed at which Kroot can be adapted to the Tau's needs. Also, as I mentioned, it does not seem like the Tau think the Kroot are really capable of understanding the full implications of the Greater Good at this point. In my own way of thinking about the Caste system therefore, the Tau would consider the Kroot too savage to employ it.

 Manchu wrote:
So until Kroothawk or you provide us with some definite proof that no Tau client race ever uses the Caste system, this issue is totally within the realm of personal preference.

I beg to differ. In every mention of the caste system in any publication, no mention of auxilliaries taking the caste system or having it placed upon them. We know therefore the Tau use it, and we know the castes are all a variety of Tau evolution, these changes taking place before the Tau ever left their world resulting in physiological differences.
The task is on you to prove that these descriptions and the caste system is extended beyond the clearly defined descriptions of the 'TAU' being organised into castes.

 Manchu wrote:


As for Gue'vesa -- it means "human helper" and refers to human auxiliaries. It could also be, although I can't go rifling through sources at the moment, that all humans who cooperate with (that is, help) the Tau are human helpers (gue'vesa) rather than just humans (gue'la).

'Human helper' by itself implies a degree of inferiority to the Tau.

 Eetion wrote:

We know therefore the Tau use it, and we know the castes are all a variety of Tau evolution, these changes taking place before the Tau ever left their world resulting in physiological differences.

Pretty sure the only reason the castes have now all but become sub-species in their own right is because the Ethereals forbade inter-marriage between castes. Personally, its very disturbing, because its almost as if the Ethereals view their own people as cattle to be bred as they see fit. Not even the Imperium goes that low (AFAIK cloning technology is forbidden and genetic technology is very tightly regulated), and I've never heard of the Imperium actually practicing breeding programs. They even suppressed one such program launched by pre-Unity warlord on Ancient Terra during the Unification Wars.

 Eetion wrote:
In every mention of the caste system in any publication ...

Even if every apple you've seen is red, that is not conclusive evidence that all apples are red -- especially when a person has shown you an apple that may or may not be red. The task is on you to prove that "Gue'la Water Caste Liaison" can only mean caste-less human liaison to the Tau Water Caste. If you can't do it with published material and you can't do it with English grammar, then you will have to admit that you don't know whether this apple is red or green. And in that case, you will have to admit that some apples might not be red.

I also do not accept this idea that the Caste system is a reference to Tau sub-species. The Caste system did not exist until the Ethereals showed up. It was put into place to differentiate social roles. There were eugenic consequences. If there are Tau sub-races, they came after the institution of the Caste system. The Caste system could be employed by non-Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
'Human helper' by itself implies a degree of inferiority to the Tau.

Maybe in English. Maybe not in the Tau language.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Not even the Imperium goes that low

Let's not get back into the pointless "Tau are worse than the Imperium" argument. The Imperium practices crude forms of eugenics -- allowing some populations to remain feral as breeding grounds for able warriors, for example. The Tau differ in that their species is completely defined by a social system with eugenic implications.

 Manchu wrote:
The Tau differ in that their species is completely defined by a social system with eugenic implications.

The Imperium aside, its still pretty disturbing in itself, although undoubtedly effective.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
They even suppressed one such program launched by pre-Unity warlord on Ancient Terra during the Unification Wars.

According to HH Book One Betrayal, the Emperor had to re-engineer "pure" humanity on Terra because Terra was so polluted and irradiated that most humans were mutants of one sort or another. So even at the outset of the Imperium, we see the Emperor himself practicing eugenics.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Imperium aside, its still pretty disturbing in itself, although undoubtedly effective.

Yep, I agree -- to humans (especially IRL humans) this is a morally troublesome practice. To the alien mind of the Tau, it is probably one of the most beautiful and wonderful accomplishments of their history.

 Manchu wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
They even suppressed one such program launched by pre-Unity warlord on Ancient Terra during the Unification Wars.

According to HH Book One Betrayal, the Emperor had to re-engineer "pure" humanity on Terra because Terra was so polluted and irradiated that most humans were mutants of one sort or another. So even at the outset of the Imperium, we see the Emperor himself practicing eugenics.

I was referring to Cardinal Tang or whatever his name was. In any case, from what I know of the Emperor's genetics program, it wasn't a breeding program per se, as that re-engineering was centered around isolating and eliminating Terra's mutant population, which I gather had grown rather large, to say the least. As for the rest, well, the Thunder Warriors were meant to be eliminated and pre-Heresy Horus did imply that the Legiones Astartes were meant to be re-integrated back into normal society after the Great Crusade ended with the assistance of the Imperial Iterator Corps. Although I hear the Emperor planned to accelerate Human psychic evolution once the Imperial Webway was complete, so he might have had something in mind...

No no, the FW book implies the Emperor had to recreate the original human genome, not just eliminate some mutants.

 Manchu wrote:
No no, the FW book implies the Emperor had to recreate the original human genome, not just eliminate some mutants.

Isn't Forge World, well, less reliable than even Black Library? Though in any case, and despite the risk of sounding like someone with double standards, I agree with the Emperor's decision. The Human species was the one with the psychic potential, not whatever it was that came out of the Old Night. Though given the material from the period, it seems the Emperor was very subtle in modifying/curing the surviving Terrans and other Humans across the galaxy without them noticing him doing so (apart from killing the obvious mutants).

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Isn't Forge World, well, less reliable than even Black Library?

The short answer is No.

The longer answer is: less reliable by what standard? First, FW is a subsidiary of GW. Second, the authors who write codices seem no more consistent than the authors who write Imperial Armour books. IMO, Alan Bligh (who wrote the FW Badab books and is now writing the HH ones) shows the most concern for consistency of anyone receiving checks from GW -- certainly much more than Mat Ward. The idea that FW is "less reliable" is a silly myth propagated by people like Lynata. The myth gets reinforced by the parallel battle over whether one can use FW units in regular 40k.

 Manchu wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Isn't Forge World, well, less reliable than even Black Library?

The short answer is No.

The longer answer is: less reliable by what standard? First, FW is a subsidiary of GW. Second, the authors who write codices seem no more consistent than the authors who write Imperial Armour books. IMO, Alan Bligh (who wrote the FW Badab books and is now writing the HH ones) shows the most concern for consistency of anyone receiving checks from GW. The idea that FW is "less reliable" is a silly myth propagated by people like Lynata.

No problem there then. The Emperor rebuilt the baseline standard Human genome (probably the one we have, if pre-Old Night Humans are identical to us), then subtly grafted it to the surviving baseline Humans, fixing whatever mutations they had...is that it?

The myth gets reinforced by the parallel battle over whether one can use FW units in regular 40k.

You can't?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Eetion wrote:

We know therefore the Tau use it, and we know the castes are all a variety of Tau evolution, these changes taking place before the Tau ever left their world resulting in physiological differences.

Pretty sure the only reason the castes have now all but become sub-species in their own right is because the Ethereals forbade inter-marriage between castes. Personally, its very disturbing, because its almost as if the Ethereals view their own people as cattle to be bred as they see fit. Not even the Imperium goes that low (AFAIK cloning technology is forbidden and genetic technology is very tightly regulated), and I've never heard of the Imperium actually practicing breeding programs. They even suppressed one such program launched by pre-Unity warlord on Ancient Terra during the Unification Wars.

The tau where divided into sub species before the aun showed up. The only difference was that they where at war with each other. When the aun united the tau, they implemented the cast system to preserve a system that was already in place.