The Greater Good; why do non-Tau accept it?

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**DarkHeretic**

Manchu wrote:
Even if you have a preference for codices, BFG is a currently unsupported game (most recent release something like five years ago?) with no likely future. .

Well, that's... rude.

Over 30 people worked hard for a year on BFG FAQ 2010. I would suggest that you owe myself, Horizon, and a lot of other people an apology. I'm sure that the guys that post here who write for FFG would probably take offense if you told them that their work was worthless and had no future as well.

**Manchu**

DarkHeretic wrote:
I'm sure that the guys that post here who write for FFG would probably take offense if you told them that their work was worthless and had no future as well.

Funny enough, that's sort of what Baron Iveagh was saying:

BaronIveagh wrote:
And I might point out, FFG have not had a good track record with fluff on occasion. (*Standing by for HBMC to complain that I nitpick too much*)

He even mentioned by username someone he knows writes for FFG and criticized that person for defending their work.

Meanwhile, please tone down the hyperbole. I did not say the work of anyone on BFG was "worthless." I said that it hadn't gotten a release in several years. I should have been more specific and said that Citadel hadn't released a model for BFG for five or so years. I didn't know Baron Iveagh was counting FW stuff since he has so little respect for FFG -- but clearly that assumption was wrong. So it's only been two years or since FW have done anything with BFG. Okay, I still don't think that makes the line equivalent to a codex. In any case, I didn't even imply BFG fluff was "worthless." What I posted was that if there was a contradiction between BFG materials and FFG materials, resolving it would be a matter of person choice.

Like other specialist games, BFG has been neglected by GW and its affiliates and there's no indication that this is going to change soon -- or ever. Me saying that is nothing personal against you or anyone else.

**H.B.M.C.**

I'd also like to point out that Andy Chambers himself has done work on the RT line, including big chunks of Battlefleet Koronus. If you're saying Andy Chambers is 'wrong', then you've fallen off the rails.

DarkHeretic wrote:
Over 30 people worked hard for a year on BFG FAQ 2010. I would suggest that you owe myself, Horizon, and a lot of other people an apology. I'm sure that the guys that post here who write for FFG would probably take offense if you told them that their work was worthless and had no future as well.

Given that's what Baron and Lynata do at every turn, telling us how our work at FFG counts for nothing, shouldn't be included and has no bearing on 40K at all and is therefore useless, then I'd say we already know how that feels, thankyouverymuch.

**Lumipon**

This is a very informative discussion. I'd like to contribute:

It's well established that the Ethereal caste is the governing force in the Tau Empire (though I use the term empire with reluctance), so it would make sense to try and discern the actions and motives of said governing force, no?

The codex tells us that the Ethereal appeared during a bloody internal conflict on T'au, a period dubbed the Mon'tau (the Darkness) by the Ethereal. They were able to quell the anger of the Tau tribes by unknown methods (mind-control, politics, social reprogramming?) and guide them to an age of unrivaled technological advancement. The Ethereal decreed that all sentient life must serve the Greater Good (assumed to mean the good of the entire galaxy) or risk devolving back to the Mon'tau, meaning brutal conflicts.

So, according to my understanding, the Ethereal caste, the governing force of the Tau Empire, seek harmony and disdain senseless violence, and the Greater Good decrees that all sentient life must submit to serve this purpose. Taken to the extreme this would mean galaxy-wide peace to all who will join, and indoctrination, servitude or death to those who won't.

Now, assuming that the Greater Good also seeks to improve living conditions of every individual and reward effort and skill in your chosen profession (or the profession chosen for you), it doesn't sound all too bad (to me, anyway).

**Admiral Valerian**

The whole concept of the Greater Good, or rather, the idea that it can embrace all sapient species is hideously flawed, actually. For one thing, Tau know nothing of the true power of Chaos. In fact, their very tolerance will be their undoing, as the open and tolerant nature of their empire makes very fertile grounds for the seeds of Chaos. In fact, they may already be touched by Chaos (or some of their clients are), they just don't realize it yet. Second, the elder races: the Necrons and the Eldar. If they Tau think their technology and promises can convince those two races to submit, then they are even more childish than I thought. Even with Humans (who are an elder race relative to the Tau), the Tau have only encountered dissatisfied colonists on the fringe worlds; I strongly doubt they'll have an easy time with the core Imperial populations. Assuming they make it that far; between their inferior Warp technology and the Realm of Ultramar sitting right in the middle of the Ultima Segmentum, the chances of them reaching the Segmentum Solar are nil.

**Lumipon**

I'm not arguing that the goal of the Ethereals is even remotely realistic with their current power. And even if they succeeded, they would still face all the problems humanity had before them.

What I am arguing is that the Ethereal genuinely and naively believe that they could bring the peace to the galaxy, when every other race has abandoned the solution (often by not even trying).

And I think that is what separates the Tau and their auxiliaries from the many other races of 40k: Genuine, child-like hope of a better future. Or the entrails of your enemies, if it's the Kroot.

**Admiral Valerian**

Lumipon wrote:

What I am arguing is that the Ethereal genuinely and naively believe that they could bring the peace to the galaxy, when every other race has abandoned the solution (often by not even trying).

Not sure if the Eldar or the Necrons tried...the Golden Age of Technology Humans lived in co-existence with xenos, until the Old Night began with the rebellion of the Men of Iron, the increasing number of Human psykers, and the Warp Storms being unleashed by the decadence of the ancient Eldar Empire.

And I think that is what separates the Tau and their auxiliaries from the many other races of 40k: Genuine, child-like hope of a better future. Or the entrails of your enemies, if it's the Kroot.

The key-word there is child-like.

**Popenfresh**

and the Warp Storms being unleashed by the decadence of the ancient Eldar Empire

I find it strange to keep seeing this pop up.

I'm inclined to ask, was recently retconned? I always thought it was the Fall that ended the warp storms

**Admiral Valerian**

Popenfresh wrote:
and the Warp Storms being unleashed by the decadence of the ancient Eldar Empire

I find it strange to keep seeing this pop up.

I'm inclined to ask, was recently retconned? I always thought it was the Fall that ended the warp storms

The instant of the Fall ended the Warp Storms. The decadence that led to the Fall caused those same Warp Storms.

**Eetion**

Admiral Valerian wrote:
Lumipon wrote:

What I am arguing is that the Ethereal genuinely and naively believe that they could bring the peace to the galaxy, when every other race has abandoned the solution (often by not even trying).

Not sure if the Eldar or the Necrons tried...the Golden Age of Technology Humans lived in co-existence with xenos, until the Old Night began with the rebellion of the Men of Iron, the increasing number of Human psykers, and the Warp Storms being unleashed by the decadence of the ancient Eldar Empire.

And I think that is what separates the Tau and their auxiliaries from the many other races of 40k: Genuine, child-like hope of a better future. Or the entrails of your enemies, if it's the Kroot.

The key-word there is child-like.

Its idealistic. Given they have no knowledge of what's really out there, its an entirely appropriate method of action.
I would hope a peaceful co existance and cooperation is always preferable to an unending war of attrition to which the Tau cannot possibly win.

**Popenfresh**

Ow, ok that makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

**Admiral Valerian**

Eetion wrote:
Its idealistic. Given they have no knowledge of what's really out there, its an entirely appropriate method of action.
I would hope a peaceful co existance and cooperation is always preferable to an unending war of attrition to which the Tau cannot possibly win.

But we all know that this is a tragedy waiting to happen. It would actually be in the Tau's best interests to 'wake up' and follow Farsight's insular example as opposed to continuing their current policies.

**Lumipon**

Admiral Valerian wrote:
The key-word there is child-like.

Yes, it is.

The Tau are children in a galactic scale, for good and ill.

The Tau don't know of the horrors of the warp, they don't know of the fierce opposition they'll encounter in the fourth sphere expansion and onwards. But they are also optimistic, using violence as the last resort. They are flexible, quickly advancing their technology and incorporating alien tech and auxiliaries to overcome the hurdles they face. They might or might not change as they grow to know more about the galaxy, as Farsight has shown us, but until then, they can offer hope and structure many sentients yearn for.

So it's easy to understand how men and aliens alike would betray their kin to join the Tau; they offer what they want.

**Admiral Valerian**

Lumipon wrote:
Admiral Valerian wrote:
The key-word there is child-like.

Yes, it is.

The Tau are children in a galactic scale, for good and ill.

The Tau don't know of the horrors of the warp, they don't know of the fierce opposition they'll encounter in the fourth sphere expansion and onwards. But they are also optimistic, using violence as the last resort. They are flexible, quickly advancing their technology and incorporating alien tech and auxiliaries to overcome the hurdles they face. They might or might not change as they grow to know more about the galaxy, as Farsight has shown us, but until then, they can offer hope and structure many sentients yearn for.

So it's easy to understand how men and aliens alike would betray their kin to join the Tau; they offer what they want.

On that we are agreed. Still, I have to wonder, can they survive the 'awakening'? In 40k such ideals only lead to tragedy. Ideals must tempered and prepared to be set aside, as both Humans and Eldar have learned at great cost.

**Eetion**

I don't think humans or eldar are a valid example. Both acted only for themselves, with no consideration for anyone else. The Tau is different because their future considers more than just themselves.

At present we have no idea what will happen to the Tau. Perhaps the unifying coexistance will spur them on to Greater and better things? The beginnings of some kind of co-ordinated resistance of the evils of the Galaxy.

Who Knows.

**Admiral Valerian**

Eetion wrote:
I don't think humans or eldar are a valid example. Both acted only for themselves, with no consideration for anyone else. The Tau is different because their future considers more than just themselves.

The Golden Age of Technology Humans lived in co-existence with xenos. However, during the Old Night, most xenos species preyed on Mankind's weakness. So Great Crusade-era Mankind tempered its ideals with xenophobia, then set those same ideals aside with the nightmarish events of the Horus Heresy. As for the ancient Eldar, well, while they were certainly as arrogant as the current Eldar, they did keep the peace in their heyday, so yeah...they might not have cared much for their inferiors, but they had a sense of responsibility.

At present we have no idea what will happen to the Tau. Perhaps the unifying coexistance will spur them on to Greater and better things? The beginnings of some kind of co-ordinated resistance of the evils of the Galaxy.

Who Knows.

Chaos is something the Tau cannot overcome with their current idealism and dependence on the Ethereals for leadership (among other things). They lack psychic potential too, so definitely no chance against the 'crons.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Lumipon wrote:
(though I use the term empire with reluctance),

Uh, why?

It fits pretty much every classical definition of an empire.

**nomotog**

Admiral Valerian wrote:
Lumipon wrote:
Admiral Valerian wrote:
The key-word there is child-like.

Yes, it is.

The Tau are children in a galactic scale, for good and ill.

The Tau don't know of the horrors of the warp, they don't know of the fierce opposition they'll encounter in the fourth sphere expansion and onwards. But they are also optimistic, using violence as the last resort. They are flexible, quickly advancing their technology and incorporating alien tech and auxiliaries to overcome the hurdles they face. They might or might not change as they grow to know more about the galaxy, as Farsight has shown us, but until then, they can offer hope and structure many sentients yearn for.

So it's easy to understand how men and aliens alike would betray their kin to join the Tau; they offer what they want.

On that we are agreed. Still, I have to wonder, can they survive the 'awakening'? In 40k such ideals only lead to tragedy. Ideals must tempered and prepared to be set aside, as both Humans and Eldar have learned at great cost.

I think this might be another tausim. The tau have awakened. At the release of the new dark eldar codex, they have meet every major evil in 40k. I'd also argue that there awakening happened a lot earlier back with farisight and the orcks and all that.

Also tau know the horrors of the wap. It really dosen't affect them even when it dose affect them.

**Lumipon**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Lumipon wrote:
(though I use the term empire with reluctance),

Uh, why?

It fits pretty much every classical definition of an empire.

Huh, I figured an empire was required to have a single, sovereign ruler, an Emperor, if you will. Ethereals don't quite fit the bill.

But it seems an Empire can also be just a great nation (according to Wikipedia), so there I have it.

**Brother Captain Alexander**

Admiral Valerian wrote:
Assuming they make it that far; between their inferior Warp technology and the Realm of Ultramar sitting right in the middle of the Ultima Segmentum, the chances of them reaching the Segmentum Solar are nil.

Tau reaching Segentum Solar is basically sci-fi for them. No warp tech = no high galactic speed.
And since neither Necrontyr or Humanity find any other alternate way for advanced FTL speeds we can safely assume that Tau won't either ( especially since their race is not psychic race at all ).
And I agree on your statement about Grater Good applying to Humanity - so far we have seen that only minor, backwater worlds have accepted it. When Tau came to larger Imperial worlds ( Nimbosa, Gravalax... ) they had much harder time getting the masses to except the Grater Good at all. At Gravalax they actually abandoned the system after seeing how many Humans refused their idea.

**Admiral Valerian**

nomotog wrote:

Also tau know the horrors of the wap. It really dosen't affect them even when it dose affect them.

No they don't. I don't recall Tau ever having faced something like the First War for Armageddon with an entire horde of Daemons and Chaos Space Marines pouring out of the Warp led by an immortal and nigh-invincible Daemon Prince.

**Eetion**

For the most part neither do imperial citizens. And if you do witness it you will be either dying, dead, mindwiped or executed shortly after encountering them.

With regards to the FTL technology,
They can skim the warp, not full immersion, who's to say how far that Technology can be taken? Significant improvements have already been made with the next generation of Tau ships.
It currently is slower, but who's to say that those 'hops' can't be made longer if not more a permanent immersion.

**Admiral Valerian**

Eetion wrote:
For the most part neither do imperial citizens. And if you do witness it you will be either dying, dead, mindwiped or executed shortly after encountering them.

Depends where you live. The threat of Chaos is pretty much standard fare for areas around the Eye of Terror, the Maelstrom, and other such places.

**Veteran Sergeant**

I think the idea of entire populations getting mind wiped or executed for seeing Chaos is greatly exaggerated anyway.

**Admiral Valerian**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I think the idea of entire populations getting mind wiped or executed for seeing Chaos is greatly exaggerated anyway.

I agree. It probably depends on the degree of exposure, or when. Take the Sabbat Worlds Crusade. I doubt the Inquisition's so stupid as to destroy that many experienced and valuable personnel for the sake of standard procedure.

**agnosto**

I took a trip on the wayback machine and found a fantastic article written by Aaron Dembski-Bowden about canon and what all the various inconsistencies in fluff means. At one point in the article he quotes something from an in-house meeting with GW's IP manager, "“It’s all real, and (n)one of it’s real.”

My take away is that everyone in this conversation is correct. Here's an appropriate quote from the end of the article:

So, is there a consensus?

Negatory.

There really isn’t.

On one hand, that’s a bit of an emotional kick to the balls. I mean, everything you do will be seen as incorrect by Some Internet Guy, and they have as much right to enjoy 40K stuff as me, you, or anyone else. I don’t sit at my desk, rubbing my hands together, delighting in the fact that I might’ve annoyed Fan #3,974,910 because I said Commander Dude Guyman zigs instead of zags. I sympathise with that irritation. I felt it myself for long enough, and its bitter taste is familiar to me as all the photos of Lily Cole I have on my hard drive.

Forget her. She never, ever replies to my stalker emails.

But on the other hand, loose canon is one of the keys to why 40K has evolved into something so completely awesome.

I’m being dead serious, here. Yes, it can be considered a mark of IP laziness, and yes, I’m not blind to the fact that 20-30 years ago, a lot of 40K’s core concepts were referential half-jokes thrown around by amateur game designers, rather than the underpinnings of a more classic sci-fi setting “envisioned” by ivory tower artistes. But the loose framework has allowed three decades of fresh canon to flood in, filling in the details without necessarily feeling too constrained by what came before. Even as someone who fiercely cleaves to canon at every opportunity, I’m constantly surprised by the sheer amount of white space left open to explore and set up shop.

Within the possibility of endless interpretation lies the potential for freedom. What matters is respecting the source material, contributing to it, and sticking to the theme. And that ties right back into my first column, because no matter who’s writing the details, 40K has some unalterable themes, etched in the stoniest of stone. They’re the key. They’re what matter most.

Get the atmosphere right, and you’re halfway there.

Everyone is equally correct. The Tau are both evil maniacs bent on mind-control and world domination and light filled teddy bears wanting to bring a little order and peace to a war-torn galaxy.

Link if you want to read the article. I liked it: http://web.archive.org/web/20111126150322/http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/

**Veteran Sergeant**

Yeah, that's the dumbest bit of copout bullcrap ever to cover why they can't keep a coherent, consistent editorial vision for their universe, lol.

It sounds pretty though.

**nomotog**

Admiral Valerian wrote:
nomotog wrote:

Also tau know the horrors of the wap. It really dosen't affect them even when it dose affect them.

No they don't. I don't recall Tau ever having faced something like the First War for Armageddon with an entire horde of Daemons and Chaos Space Marines pouring out of the Warp led by an immortal and nigh-invincible Daemon Prince.

I'm not going to get to mired in details, but some of the know chaos tau meet ups we have. Kronus, Kaurava, D’shas’Ka, Ke’lsha. Then there is the fire warrior novel of coarse.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I think the idea of entire populations getting mind wiped or executed for seeing Chaos is greatly exaggerated anyway.

I always wonder why they don't do executions with the other infectious races. It would help a lot with genestealers

**Manchu**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Yeah, that's the dumbest bit of copout bullcrap ever to cover why they can't keep a coherent, consistent editorial vision for their universe, lol.

Agreed. It may be the company's policy, so they can keep changing whatever they want to sell army men or novels or what have you, but that has nothing to do with fans talking to each other about THE 40k universe. There are contradictions, no matter if you only stick to codices or if you add WD or add FW or FFG, and in those instances, all anyone can do is say either "interpretation X makes more sense considering other non-contradictory information" or, when that's not possible, to say "well, I like interpretation X over interpretation Y." But I find these kind of explicit contradictions are (1) rare and (2) often concern rather minor issues (how exactly a bolter works) in relation to "the story."

**BaronIveagh**

Slight necro, but... The Greater Good came out yesterday, in which we got a bit of a look at how the Tau annex human worlds, and how humans under the tau view the Imperium (as barbarians). Sorry for those longing to hear tales of genocide, but apparently tau occupation is handled with a 'hands off' approach by the tau, with humans taken from Tau controlled human worlds in the Damocles gulf serving as intermediaries. Interestingly enough, the Tau also are not adverse, apparently, to full reconstruction of worlds.

Also interesting was that on at least one tau controlled world in the Damocles Gulf, it's considered normal for humans to have tau first names and human family names. The implication being that the humans integrate extensively into tau culture.

There's also some inquisitorial speculation that Tau convince mutants and psykers to use their powers for the greater good, but no evidence is presented.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

Tau reaching Segentum Solar is basically sci-fi for them. No warp tech = no high galactic speed.
And since neither Necrontyr or Humanity find any other alternate way for advanced FTL speeds we can safely assume that Tau won't either ( especially since their race is not psychic race at all ).
And I agree on your statement about Grater Good applying to Humanity - so far we have seen that only minor, backwater worlds have accepted it. When Tau came to larger Imperial worlds ( Nimbosa, Gravalax... ) they had much harder time getting the masses to except the Grater Good at all. At Gravalax they actually abandoned the system after seeing how many Humans refused their idea.

There's a few problems with the above statement, one is that Oldcrons did, in fact, have their own FTL. Newcrons however use the webway. Tau do have a form of FTL that involves skimming along the barrier between worlds. As of IA 3, they have discovered a way to do this at similar speeds and distances to Imperial ships traveling the warp, which is used in their newer ships classes.

Gravalax the greater good set in quite nicely, but Tau decided rather than fight the Imperium for the world, they would pull out to devote more attention to the incoming hive fleets. (The resulting Tau/Imperial Alliance against the Tyrannids is covered in 'The Greater Good'.)

The upcomming Fire Caste looks like it might explore this further, as the preview in the back of The Greater Good has human auxiliaries rahter prominent.