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 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
They also do reverse-engineering of lost technologies whenever possible. Apparently, Terminator Armor is one such technology kept known only be reverse-engineering existing units. So, the Imperium can continue to access its more advanced and vital technologies by studying and replicating existing units. Its easier said than done of course, but it works, and that's what matters.

And yes its just updating so to speak. Who cares? Technology doesn't win wars, men do. The Damocles Gulf 'Crusade' was nothing compared to the Sabbat Worlds. An Imperial Crusade on a scale equal to the latter would crush the Tau like a bug. It would be bloody, but this is 40k. Xenocide and war is standard fare.

Already happened, didn't work. Not even against the rather isolated Velk'han sept.

Except the Imperium is fighting a multi-front war against multiple opponents in the Jericho Reach. Doesn't matter. If the Imperium doesn't wipe them out, Chaos will. When the Emperor dies, we'll all have one, fair, chance to prove ourselves to the Gods of Chaos. Burning T'au and offering Aun'Va's soul to the gods will be my proof of existence

The Achilus Crusade is also four to six times larger than the rather small Sabath worlds crusade. Tbh, the numbers finaly make sense. GW's habit of conquering entire sectors with only a few million men has always been a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Except the Imperium is fighting a multi-front war against multiple opponents in the Jericho Reach. Doesn't matter. If the Imperium doesn't wipe them out, Chaos will. When the Emperor dies, we'll all have one, fair, chance to prove ourselves to the Gods of Chaos. Burning T'au and offering Aun'Va's soul to the gods will be my proof of existence

Why wait and risk being treated as a latecomer? Join the Despoiler's/ Elak Sarda's/Urlock Gaur's/whoever else you prefer, forces now and get a free mutation! \o/

They're fighting Tyranids, Chaos, and Tau all at the same time. And the Imperials are being funneled through a single Warp gate. It would obviously be not as easy as a multi-pronged offensive from multiple directions against a single opponent.

 KingDeath wrote:


Why wait and risk being treated as a latecomer? Join the Despoiler's/ Elak Sarda's/Urlock Gaur's/whoever else you prefer, forces now and get a free mutation! \o/

I remain loyal to the Emperor until I die (how can the gods trust someone who wasn't loyal to his master when said master still lived). Or he dies...in which case any further loyalty to the Imperium is moot, since it will fall apart. One chance to prove myself, and I carve a bloody swath of destruction near the Tau Empire to prove my loyalty. Then I invade the Tau Empire, burning souls to buy the loyalty of the Daemons of the Warp and trading even more souls for power for me and the assistance of the Traitor Legions. Worlds will burn, but T'au shall be a new Daemon World as I prove my new proof of existence and loyalty to Chaos. And the Warp shall echo with the laughter of the gods and their amused words "You have pleased us..."

From the Imperium to Chaos, such an odd career shift...but at least the gods wouldn't mind the mindless slaughter of xenos filth. On the contrary, the Blood God in particular would be well pleased by such bloodshed.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Actually, the Adeptus Mechanicus understands how their machines work. Its just wrapped up in dogma and ritual. And they also frown on innovation and creativity; instead they focus on re-discovering items from the Golden Age of Technology and improving existing technologies as opposed to developing entirely new ones.

They rely on finding patterns from another civilisation, then sing and praise to the Machine God and hope it helps.
Is that your definition of understanding technology? Then shamans finding a battery radio receiver and pushing the on button during a ritual are masters of engineering

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Actually, the Adeptus Mechanicus understands how their machines work. Its just wrapped up in dogma and ritual. And they also frown on innovation and creativity; instead they focus on re-discovering items from the Golden Age of Technology and improving existing technologies as opposed to developing entirely new ones.

They rely on finding patterns from another civilisation, then sing and praise to the Machine God and hope it helps.
Is that your definition of understanding technology? Then shamans finding a battery radio receiver and pushing the on button during a ritual are masters of engineering

Hence 'wrapped up in dogma and ritual'. Did you even read my post?

I think his point is that if the mechanicus feel the need to bless the machine with holy ungents to ensure a machine works properly. Then they actually have very little idea of how a machine works.

The mechanicum are dogmatic and jealously guard their secrets, but that doesn't mean they truly comprehend the science behind their creation. Its just the blessings of the Machine God that a machine reacts the way it does.

The Earth Caste by comparison are skilled and profficient and are capable of thinking 'outside the box' to resolve a problem.

Certainly not the way we understand science, but its still science in a way.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Certainly not the way we understand science, but its still science in a way.

Only in the same way as giving a chimp a paintbrush and paper and letting it splash paint on is 'Art'.

Sure they can splash paint on and know what the brush is for, but that doesn't mean it comprehends how to CREATE an piece of art.

Same with the mechanicus.

Sure they know hat a digital plug is for and what a command interface is but that doesn't mean the comprehend how to CREATE a new piece of technology.

 Eetion wrote:


Sure they know hat a digital plug is for and what a command interface is but that doesn't mean the comprehend how to CREATE a new piece of technology.

They can. Its just forbidden. Innovators and other such unorthodox Tech Priests dominate the ranks of the Explorators, men and women who need adaptability in their duties in pursuit of the unknown.

 Eetion wrote:
I think his point is that if the mechanicus feel the need to bless the machine with holy ungents to ensure a machine works properly. Then they actually have very little idea of how a machine works.

The mechanicum are dogmatic and jealously guard their secrets, but that doesn't mean they truly comprehend the science behind their creation. Its just the blessings of the Machine God that a machine reacts the way it does.

The Earth Caste by comparison are skilled and profficient and are capable of thinking 'outside the box' to resolve a problem.

I'm also not 100% certain that is the case.

The Adeptus Mechanicus definitely understands how things work some some very technical levels as the Imperium continues to manufacture Space Faring vessels, and enough arms and armaments to equip a trillions-strong force at arms across an entire galaxy. They are, in every sense... engineers.

40k makes it easy for people to overlook simple things.

Space Marines are "warrior monks" not just trigger happy marines with big bulky armor. They have Fortress Monastaries... and they are a VERY religious order. So much so in fact that they are the only body within the Imperium not subject to the Imperial Creed. But for someone who has no interested in the lore outside the one or two factions they play... the Space Marines probably just look like larger than normal marines with an antiquated religion.

The same is true of the Ad Mech. They are insanely clever, even by engineering standards. Or has the general reading demographic forgotten that a typical Tech Priest has a dozen or more brains, each one networked to a digital servo bank that he can "hot swap" to access other data such as memories and information. There are cogitators that link up with the human mind on a level unseen in other races. Oh, and they live for THOUSANDS of years by undergoing genetic therapy.

It's ignorant to say that mankind are not technologically advanced. And it's NOT because they just cling to old stuff and hope to find more... The Ad Mech are DANGEROUSLY smart. And that is exactly why they keep that information secret. It's in their best interest, (and everyone else's actually) that the bulk of humanity not know about it. Does the average hive world worker know how a lasgun works? Of course not. Does the Ad Mech... hell yeah.

However, by nature of the Imperium, and the cool grimdark setting, the engineers are (atypical of the real world) also priests of the Machine God. Just because they call a procedure a "ritual" does not mean they were standing around in a circle doing a voodoo rain dance... again that's an ignorant and bigoted way to look the word "ritual".

IMO a "ritual" could be anything...

That servo skull is malfunctioning... time for a re-programming "ritual".

I agree. If they didn't understand how the machines function, how do they put them together? Automation is forbidden, remember? They just cloak all that knowledge in dogma and ritual, but the knowledge at the core of things is still the same. Furthermore, even if they recover ancient technologies, reverse-engineering is impossible without knowledge and understanding of scientific principles; therefore the Mechanicus does know and understand what it has.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
I agree. If they didn't understand how the machines function, how do they put them together? Automation is forbidden, remember? They just cloak all that knowledge in dogma and ritual, but the knowledge at the core of things is still the same.

They need STCs for every major construct (and searching for those is a major effort of AdMech):
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Standard_Template_Construct

The STC system was an evolved computer designed to provide construction details for colonists. Each group of colonists carried such a system. It enabled the colonists to build efficient shelters, generators and transports without any prior knowledge and using almost any locally available materials. For example, the user simply asked how to build a house or a tractor and the computer supplies all the necessary plans.

In other words: Ad Mech know gak about Engineering. And they don't cover things up with rituals, they actually believe in those rituals, it's all they have (and it somehow works, like wonders in the Imperial faith or because the rituals do the right thing accidentally). And they hunt down tech heresy (which is what others would call advanced engineering).

 Kroothawk wrote:

They need STCs for every major construct (and searching for those is a major effort of AdMech)

And they understand those STCs. And sometimes they don't have STCs, but still build machines regardless, like warships and Titans.

In other words: Ad Mech know gak about Engineering.

bs. I study engineering and even with rote memorization you still end up understanding what you just memorize. You can't build anything advanced without understanding it.

Some times things are built I will certainly not dispute that. But how much of what they had is new, and how much is based on pre existing equipment being 'merged'.

The Mechanicus do decrtainly have some understanding of what there doing, but how much of that is a true understanding. I seriously doubt the mechanicus 'invented' titans, much more likely they copied golden Age designs.

If the Mechanicus were as skilled inventors as you claim, the likes of the scartix coil would have been much more prevalent across the Imperial Navy.

The mechanicum surely have some dangerous technolgy and knowledge at their disposal. But I doubt that they 'invrnted' that technology themselves and instead used pre existing plans to make something dangerous which is then withheld from the imperium.

The mechanicum jealously guard what knowledge they do have as its loss is close to irreplacable. Take the vanquisher cannon for example, with the loss of the forge world tigrus, the technology was nearly lost with stygies and gryphonne trying to replicate the technology, neither truly succeeding, stygies using smaller callibre to obtain higher velocity and gryphonne using long barrels.
They can no longer replicate the advanced plasma batteries of the murder class cruiser, why? If the mechanicum were as knowledgable as you suggest then this would be a relatively simple matter. In fact you would expect improvement.

The imperium seems to drive to discover existing patterns of STC tecnology and identifying sanctioned variant vehicles. Such as the land Raider crusader or Baal predators.

The mechanicum of course have a degree of knowledge, to create, repair and adapt, but for the most part lack that knowledge to adapt.


As a side point were a bit off topic here. Worth a topic of its own though.

I do enjoy these discussions admiral valerian, we might not agree on everything but its good to have a flameless debate.

I'd also say Kudos for this particular thread, which remains largely "flame free".

But yes, we've all gotten side-tracked.

I think the point I was trying to make is that the Imperium currently implements some pretty impressive Tech, even when compared to the Tau. I mentioned this because its fits the argument that the Tau doesn't really have a lot to offer the Imperium by way of technology. Mind you this is "as thins currently are". An argument could be made that the Tau will advance and soon have even greater tech, but that's outside the context since it's could or would in place what currently is.

Also, we are talking about very different types of technology.

As it stands right now, the Tau may be (speculation since I have no source for this) more advanced in terms of agriculture, mining, or medicine... but the Imperium (IMO) is clearly their superior for the technologies related to warfare. Coupled with the countless thousands of years of history.... we've pretty much got war down to a science of its own.

And since 40k isn't Farmville, it doesn't matter who has more cows, or how has the technology to put their cows in a stealth suit.... 40k is about WAR. It's what we all play.

That being said, what matters to the average Imperial citizen is probably nothing more than survival. Unless given special reason, EVERY world contributes a regular compliment of soldiers as part of their Imperial Tithe. Every planet is home to men, women, and children who have lost loved ones to the causes of the Imperium. They loose mothers, fathers, daughters, sons... by the billions to ravaging alien hordes daily. They are imbued with a powerful sense of loyalty to their own kind, and are taught to direct all their hate toward the alien... the Xeno.

If a Tau landed on any Imperial world, the typical citizen would likely try and kill it (succeed or not) on sight. That citizen isn't going to sit by and listen to a lengthy rant about how "technically our farming equipment is better". He's going to grab the nearest pickaxe, hoe, sledge, or other tool and bludgeon the pudgy blue bastard to death.

he ONLY reason the Tau have succeeded in dissuading a handful of planets from the Imperium is because they aren't targeting the "Average citizen". They are reaching out to already corrupt or disenfranchised planetary governors, and offering them some modicum of power. That planetary governor probably thinks he is getting a good deal. He can keep his soldiers, his money, and his planetary resources, and all he has to do is kneel occasionally when an Ethereal comes around. He is probably quite ignorant of the fact that he is actually damning his people more than freeing them, and he doesn't care because like all persons of power, he is interested on his own benefit.

Where did you read all that? One thing you get backwards is that the average citizen is generally the most accepting of the tau. It's the governs who reist the most.

Ok.. a few things I've noticed over the last few pages..


STC printouts for things like starships and many starship components still exist. For those that claim they're produced without them, I point to you BFG Blue Book and the business with the Scartix Engine Coil or any current fluff for Heavy Cruisers or Grand Cruisers.

A lot of people have refereed to the primarchs and creation of the space marines as to how awesome Imperial Genetic Engineering is, without mentioning that level of tech has been lost since then, see fluff for the disaster known as the Cursed Founding for more details.

Vanquisher cannons are currently produced in two locations using two different techniques.

The Tau posses a higher overall technological base than the Imperium (you don't see billions of slaves chained to their posts doing strip mining with hand tools under the Tau). Their weapon technology is greater both overall and individually per trooper than the Imperium. The areas the Tau fall behind the Imperium are as follows: starship tech (marginally), FTL communications (tau lack astropaths so they use courier ships), giant weapons (Titans, Ordinatus, etc), and, interestingly, laser technology. Some areas they lack are due less to technology and more to a different style of warfare (Tau favor mobility over heavy armor).

Where the Tau beat the Imperium's ass technologically: electronics, engineering, anti-grav, plasma weaponry, Missile Tech, robotics, infrastructure, logistics, and communications tech. (and rail rifles)

Why the Tau will never succeed: GW will never advance the plotline. And they do not recognize the Ultramarine as their spiritual liege, despite also being blue.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
They also do reverse-engineering of lost technologies whenever possible. Apparently, Terminator Armor is one such technology kept known only be reverse-engineering existing units. So, the Imperium can continue to access its more advanced and vital technologies by studying and replicating existing units. Its easier said than done of course, but it works, and that's what matters.

And yes its just updating so to speak. Who cares? Technology doesn't win wars, men do. The Damocles Gulf 'Crusade' was nothing compared to the Sabbat Worlds. An Imperial Crusade on a scale equal to the latter would crush the Tau like a bug. It would be bloody, but this is 40k. Xenocide and war is standard fare.

Already happened, didn't work. Not even against the rather isolated Velk'han sept.

Except the Imperium is fighting a multi-front war against multiple opponents in the Jericho Reach. Doesn't matter. If the Imperium doesn't wipe them out, Chaos will. When the Emperor dies, we'll all have one, fair, chance to prove ourselves to the Gods of Chaos. Burning T'au and offering Aun'Va's soul to the gods will be my proof of existence

The Achilus Crusade is also four to six times larger than the rather small Sabath worlds crusade.

Are you sure? The Sabbat Worlds Crusade is to conquer 200 worlds.

 Eetion wrote:


The Mechanicus do decrtainly have some understanding of what there doing, but how much of that is a true understanding. I seriously doubt the mechanicus 'invented' titans, much more likely they copied golden Age designs.

No, I'm pretty sure Titans aren't an STC design.

If the Mechanicus were as skilled inventors as you claim, the likes of the scartix coil would have been much more prevalent across the Imperial Navy.

They don't have the ships to reverse-engineer it, seeing as the only ship with it turned traitor.

They can no longer replicate the advanced plasma batteries of the murder class cruiser, why? If the mechanicum were as knowledgable as you suggest then this would be a relatively simple matter. In fact you would expect improvement.

Well, they did moth-ball/phase-out the class, and with the Imperium under constant siege, I don't think they'd waste time and resources reverse-engineering when the Lunar-class is reliable enough as it is. In any case, as I understand it, laser batteries like those on the Overlord and Sword-classes are favored by the Imperial Navy (probably because its less dangerous).

The mechanicum of course have a degree of knowledge, to create, repair and adapt, but for the most part lack that knowledge to adapt.

This is incorrect to a certain degree, since the Mechanicus has to 'fill in the gaps' sometimes due to incomplete/fragmentary data. True innovation is rare though, and probably limited to tech heretics and Explorators (who are considered unorthodox by their fellow Tech Priests).

I do enjoy these discussions admiral valerian, we might not agree on everything but its good to have a flameless debate.

You know what, I never thought of it that way. Good point

I'm pretty sure that Titans arnt an STC either, but that doesn't mean I believe the mechanicus invented them. More likely they copied golden age technology that was already on Mars.

The Slaughter class cruiser destroyed the plans for the scartix Coil but given that the cruisers were still being produced they probably did still have loyal cruisers also. But just the loss of the schematics meant the technology was lost to them. Even scartix coil aside, the drives of Chaos vessels are superior generally.

I agree explorators probably are the most likely to tinker. But even they have to walk the line between heretek unorthodox. Eems like the true innovators are being railroaded into team chaos.

But were well off topic now... So

The greater good... You still pay takes to 'the man'... Just your living conditions improve from the 14 hour work days. You may have a few drones helping you... What's not to like.

 Eetion wrote:

The greater good... You still pay takes to 'the man'... Just your living conditions improve from the 14 hour work days. You may have a few drones helping you... What's not to like.

That would depend on your view of the fluff. I reject the uber-grimdark portrayal of codices for the most part, and take the lighter shades portrayed by Black Library.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

No, I'm pretty sure Titans aren't an STC design.

Might want to read Dark Adeptus then. It's spelled out about as clearly as anything ever is in 40k. (Though, to be fair, the AI aboard the original STC Titan makes a bargain with the ruinous powers and becomes a daemon prince. [Sadly, I'm serious])

Could I offer a compromise by saying two things.

1. Tau are more innovative, their technology developement is more widespread, and they advance infinitely faster than the Imperium because they still use the scientific method.

2. The Imperium's most advanced war technology is still significantly more advanced than the most advanced Tau war technology. They can progress but for every two steps forward it could be one to three steps back.

 Shlazaor wrote:
Could I offer a compromise by saying two things.

1. Tau are more innovative, their technology developement is more widespread, and they advance infinitely faster than the Imperium because they still use the scientific method.

2. The Imperium's most advanced war technology is still significantly more advanced than the most advanced Tau war technology. They can progress but for every two steps forward it could be one to three steps back.

Well... the problem is that 2 is pretty blatantly and obviously untrue. The Imperium circa the Great Crusade, yes. The Imperium circa M41, absolutely not. Even some of the rarest and most venerated Imperial war tech, such as Contemptor pattern Dreadnoughts, are broadly comparable to Tau battlesuits.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:
Could I offer a compromise by saying two things.

1. Tau are more innovative, their technology developement is more widespread, and they advance infinitely faster than the Imperium because they still use the scientific method.

2. The Imperium's most advanced war technology is still significantly more advanced than the most advanced Tau war technology. They can progress but for every two steps forward it could be one to three steps back.

Well... the problem is that 2 is pretty blatantly and obviously untrue. The Imperium circa the Great Crusade, yes. The Imperium circa M41, absolutely not. Even some of the rarest and most venerated Imperial war tech, such as Contemptor pattern Dreadnoughts, are broadly comparable to Tau battlesuits.

Tau have Force Weapons then, I take it? Because last I looked, they have no psychic technology whatsoever. In that field, the Imperium is as ahead of them as the Eldar are to the Imperium.

I believe that the high end Imperial technology is generally better than the Tau. But is ultimately much much rarer than Tau technology which is consistently High technology across their armed forces.

One exception maybe being small arms, pulse pistols, rifles, carbines etc, iv yet to see a imperial equivalent that even remotely matches the Tau. That's not to say that such tech exists though.
Although manportal meltaguns and plasma guns has to be considered also.

 Eetion wrote:
I believe that the high end Imperial technology is generally better than the Tau. But is ultimately much much rarer than Tau technology which is consistently High technology across their armed forces.

Imperial/Human technology is ultimately based on Necron technology via the Void Dragon. As a result, in the theoretical event that the Imperium/Adeptus Mechanicus perfectly replicates any original, Human-adapted technology obtained from the Void Dragon, it would surpass all others, perhaps even the Eldar, with the sole exception of the Necrons, since they possess the technology the Humans based their technology on.

One exception maybe being small arms, pulse pistols, rifles, carbines etc, iv yet to see a imperial equivalent that even remotely matches the Tau. That's not to say that such tech exists though.
Although manportal meltaguns and plasma guns has to be considered also.

Plasma Pistols. AFAIK, Imperial plasma weapons are unstable and dangerous compared to the Tau's plasma weapons, but possess superior destructive power.

Pulse weapons are about equivalent to plasma (in fact they are plasma) and could stand as good comparison point between the two tech bases. Pulse guns are the most basic basic tau weapon, mean while plasma weapons are a few levels above the basic imperial weapon.

Is it better to have extremely advanced technology and not understand it or to have somewhat advanced technology that you do understand?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Tau have Force Weapons then, I take it? Because last I looked, they have no psychic technology whatsoever. In that field, the Imperium is as ahead of them as the Eldar are to the Imperium.

The Tau, yes, because the Tau do not have psykers. The Nicassar, however have starship psychic tech that makes the eldar look like orcs. Remember, Nicassar dhows don't even have engines as the Imperium understands them. The entire thing is powered and propelled by the psychic power of the captain of the ship. All they lack is a warp drive (why this is has never been explained).

Can someone explain to me more about things like the Ethereal mind control, population sterilization, Vespid mind control etc? Has any of it been confirmed? Some quotes would be nice.

Regarding the Vespids the Codex suggests is it speculation by the Imperium about the mind control - obviously the Imperium would refuse to believe anyone would join them willingly.

Is the stuff in Deathwatch from an Imperial Perspective, or does it outright say it is true?