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Navigators are not psykers.

On another note, 25 pages? I'm impressed with this thread

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
People eat raw beef, and the ideal way to cook a steak is to leave it basically raw inside (I don't mean rare, I mean all but uncooked inside, just warmed up). The issue with raw meat is more one of sanitation than dietary necessity.

Never go to Scotland and order beef, if it's bleeding then it's not cooked. Same with lamb. I recall a Masterchef programme in which a Scottish Chef took place and presented a lamb dish to the judges who claimed it was overcooked, the reply "Not in Scotland it's not" (Or words to that effect) Lloyd Grossman (I know sorry to include him) spoke for that fact as well.

A Tau with a navigator equivalent gene would be a psyker, and psykers can explode into daemons for basically no reason if they're not properly trained to avoid this. Presumably, if the Tau actually can genetically engineer such things, this would be discovered in the testing phase, causing the project to be abandoned.

But thats the question I'm asking, is there anything saying that that is the inevitable end. For example Ork weirdboys, warp entities can't 'use' them, they become trapped. Nicassar, a highly psionic race, dont have that problem. Eldar, don't have that problem, so why would Tau?

Cheers

Andrew

Lumipon wrote:

Then again, the Imperium cannot spare any men to fully wipe out any of their major enemies. Because doing so would only make them lose another sector.

Just to this sentiment in general: the Imperium could very easily wipe out anything apart from the Eldar or anything in the Eye of Terror faster than you can say "vortex torpedo". They fight wars to take planets because they regard the planets as more valuable than the materiel and manpower that taking them burns, but are more than capable of just up and eradicating all life on a planet, or just smashing it apart.

So the Imperium could win any other race (except the Tyranids) in a straight duel, but is surrounded by enemies it can't completely destroy.

The Imperium is winning its wars, it just doesn't care if it takes centuries to finish anything up, and the Tyranids, so far, have been to the Imperium what a particularly belligerent bear in the middle of Alaska is to the US. That's the scale we're talking about with the Imperium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Admiral Valerian wrote:Navigators are not psykers.

On another note, 25 pages? I'm impressed with this thread

Isn't most of it the same handful of arguments?

And yes, navigators are a special sort of psyker. Speaking in the most technical terms, almost all humans are psykers, having warp presences and all. It's just some wind up with bigger warp presences, and some with negative ones (blanks). There are some who are basically warp neutral, like Tau, neither drawing the warp in nor pushing it away.

AndrewC wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
People eat raw beef, and the ideal way to cook a steak is to leave it basically raw inside (I don't mean rare, I mean all but uncooked inside, just warmed up). The issue with raw meat is more one of sanitation than dietary necessity.

Never go to Scotland and order beef, if it's bleeding then it's not cooked. Same with lamb. I recall a Masterchef programme in which a Scottish Chef took place and presented a lamb dish to the judges who claimed it was overcooked, the reply "Not in Scotland it's not" (Or words to that effect) Lloyd Grossman (I know sorry to include him) spoke for that fact as well.

Do you mean they complained it was undercooked, since you said it's traditionally undercooked in scotland? Lamb is something that need to be very lightly cooked or it ends up just horrible, unless you're talking really thin strips served in a very wet sauce, in which case scorch it black. Same goes for (non-ground) beef, in my opinion. As opposed to poultry or pork, which have to be heavily cooked to prevent food poisoning.

But thats the question I'm asking, is there anything saying that that is the inevitable end. For example Ork weirdboys, warp entities can't 'use' them, they become trapped. Nicassar, a highly psionic race, dont have that problem. Eldar, don't have that problem, so why would Tau?

Cheers

Andrew

Orks are a strange case, and Eldar are either trained and/or suppressed to prevent it. There's not a whole lot about the Nicassar, is there?

 AndrewC wrote:


But thats the question I'm asking, is there anything saying that that is the inevitable end. For example Ork weirdboys, warp entities can't 'use' them, they become trapped. Nicassar, a highly psionic race, dont have that problem. Eldar, don't have that problem, so why would Tau?

Orks are too anarchic (ironic) to be influenced by Chaos/possessed by Daemons, plus Gork and Mork are far more powerful than the Chaos Powers. Nicassar...small fry among the hierarchy of psionics. Eldar...they can't access the Warp directly (it's too dangerous with She Who Thirsts and all), hence the use of runes.

Doesn't matter, I've just seen the discussion on the Warp Storm Table in the new codex. Apparently any psyker can now explode into a demon. Never mind, up to that point I did have a point.

No Sir P, meat is traditionally cooked all the way through in Scotland, it's the default setting. If you order a steak and don't specify, it's coming back cooked. Unless of course if the chef is not Scottish.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:

No Sir P, meat is traditionally cooked all the way through in Scotland, it's the default setting. If you order a steak and don't specify, it's coming back cooked. Unless of course if the chef is not Scottish.

Cheers

Andrew

Ah, I read it wrong. Thanks for the correction.

Orks can fall to Chaos. There have been Nurgle Orks, which turned because they worshiped an altar of Nurgle, thinking it was Gork... or maybe Mork.

There have been Khornate Orks as well, who got a little too into the bloodshed and violence.

Orks, however, have an innate understanding of what is "proppa Orky", and Chaos isn't it, so such Chaos Orks don't mingle well with other Orks, and are often eradicated by them.

This does not mean that there isn't, somewhere, a world of entirely Chaos Orks.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Humans had warp travel before the astronomicon, and still have to rely on the less precise (and thus slower and more careful) method out where the signal is weak. The Tau tech is like a primitive version of the earliest human warp technology.

Archonate wrote:Indeed, and the imperium will stay ahead in this department unless the Tau figure out the webway or something.

That was true right up to the point IA 3 came out, It's also in BFG: FAQ 2010.

Further: on the Tau/IN debate: Tau can actually field more LBs than IN as their fleet structure goes 'battleship down' where IN goes 'Cruiser Up'. The only way you can have more LBs is with either the Segmentum Solar fleet list, a SERIOUS (and expensive) specialist build from the Bakka Fleetlist or one of the banned lists from IA 10.

Remember that on a larger than standard board, Tau easily dominate IN.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Imperial plasma tech is both more compact and more powerful than Tau (fluffwise, it only blows up if you start it generating plasma and then *don't* fire it, so it's not really all that unstable either) and the Imperium uses railguns on ships, where their disordinately large power requirements aren't an issue. The lasgun is simply a marvel of engineering, being powerful, compact, cheap, and logistically trivial to operate en mass.

Imperial tech does not 'generate' plasma. Imperial plasma guns 'overheat' because they fail to correctly generate the magnetic packet that keeps the plasma contained that it extracts from the plasma containment flask. This is why in the RPG 'Best' Imperial quality plasma weapons do not overheat.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Tau tech is bulkier than its Imperial equivalent, and suffers in any number of other ways too, as the individual case may be. Since the fluff doesn't concern itself with logistics, we don't know how sustainable the Tau military is in an engagement where they're not basically just defending an ammo dump, but unless the new codex brings them some magical new handwavium, we can assume it's nowhere near as much so as tanks that can run on anything that will burn, and infantry weapons that can be reloaded by exposing them to sunlight.

Lasguns *can* be recharged in a fire, however, this shortens their useable life and halves their magazine capacity. They cannot be 'reloaded by exposing them to sunlight' and are actually supposed to be plugged into a charging station attached to a generator.

Admiral Valerian wrote:
They're called macrocannons. They fire kiloton-grade metallic projectiles at relativistic speeds. Imperial/Chaos warships pack bank upon bank of these things along with laser/plasma/melta cannons in their Weapon Batteries. Compared to Tau vessels' ship-mounted Railguns, Imperial/Chaos Weapon Batteries pack a heavier punch.

Macrocannons are NOT mass drivers (at least not EM ones, though a rare variant exists that uses gravity manipulation to propel the charge). Melta cannons actually fire a large meltabomb using the same technology as some of the (occasionally blackpowder) rest of the macrocannons. Plasma cannons work on the same principal as Imperial plasma weapons, as do disruptor cannons.

Admiral Valerian wrote:
And yes, I would argue large-scale Imperial energy sources are better than what the Tau have, considering that Imperial plasma reactors can power huge vessels and planet-sized cities. Or...the Imperials just build more reactors as needed.

The Imperium takes years to build a starship engine. Further, the Tau have reactors that are ever bit as efficient and probably more so, as they too power massive space platforms and huge starships.

Admiral Valerian wrote:
Superior power or not, I'd take a Lasgun over a Pulse Rifle any day. It's light, reliable, and has infinite ammo (I can recharge the e-packs by simply leaving them in sunlight).

Why in the name of the Emperor do people keep trying to bring up the sunlight thing? NO LONGER CANON. Quit basing your arguments on what Lexicanum says. And the tau have access to lasguns, they just choose not to use them (Indeed, human auxiliaries ditch the lasguns at the first chance they get.)

Admiral Valerian wrote:Navigators are not psykers.

Funny, fluff and Crunch say they are in Every RT supplement published AND the core book, as well as All the CC novels, BFG blue book and all old codex fluff, all the Gaunt's Novels, all the Ultramarines novels, they're mentioned as psykers in the HH novels... well, the list goes on.

just curious but when did Lasgun cells being charged in sunlight stop being canon?

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
just curious but when did Lasgun cells being charged in sunlight stop being canon?

yeah i thought that was still legit? that was like one of its main selling points as the main small arm of the imperium. when did they remove it? seems odd, considering they've almost got that tech now.

Shouldn't matter too much as long as IG carry rechargers. And IMO solar charging wouldn't redeem the weapon. If they're fighting at night, under a smoke choked sky, or on a ship, this feature is of no use. By today's standards the Lasgun is amazing. By 40k standards, very few weapons are worse.

You can stick a turd on a golden pedestal and sing praises to it. It will still be a piece of crap.

That said, I will admit lasguns are cool. I understand the appeal. I just can't bring myself to call the weapons tech behind them superior to that of the Tau.

that's not really the point though, the imperium's been fighting for x many years longer than the tau, they worked out that with a totally erratic and unforgiving supply chain and illiterate peasant soldiers, good tech is wasted on the grunt. better to give them a weapon that never jams (thought they do in the books - wtf), that can be reloaded simply, has a large ammo capacity, doesn't use resources that are needed elsewhere, is sturdy enough to be used as a stave or club, and has no bullet drop or sway to counter. bolters are great weapons, but are complex and costly to build and maintain, require massive amounts of training and if they are lost then it's an economic hit for the imperium. the same probably applies to the pulse rifle, just that the tau aren't in a state of all out war. yet. of course the defecting guardsman would trade his lassy for a pulse rifle, but he won't even be able to shoot himself with it when a million hormagaunts are staring at him if he doesn't have any ammo or a cleaning kit for it. gw wants the tau to be the shootiest force around, fair enough. but the humble lasgun, by say ww1 standards would have been a godsend. and the 41st millennium is basically a big ww1.

Why would you assume that the basic issue Tau gear is costly and hard to build. Tau society and its caste system, let's say due to combat casualties the fire Caste is just 10% of the population. Every Single one of them is equiped with some form of pulse weaponry at the very least.
Crisis suits are hard to build,
Broadside suits are hard to build
Pulse weaponry... Sickeningly common. Can't be that hard, if your arming a sizable portion of your population with them as standard.

I hear the argument that the Tau are getting stronger and better with their evolving tech quite a lot. My question is will it help in the short run? I know gw wont really advance the timeline. But if it would, I would see a reasonable chance they might get hit by a full tyranid fleet in a 100 years or so. The Imperium can trade space for time, but the Tau really cant do that as much. Will the Tau survive a major fleet like Behemoth or Leviathan?

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
just curious but when did Lasgun cells being charged in sunlight stop being canon?

Not entirely sure. I don't remember it being in the most recent Codex: IG, Imperial Munitorum Manual says they can be put in a fire to recharge but this negatively effects them, and the Dark Heresy RPG (and all it's subsidiary games) agrees in this. Dark Heresy states they can be recharged from a suitable power source such as a generator with a simple tech use check, with the amount of time left up to the GM, or they can be placed in an open flame for 24 hours to charge them that way.

pax_imperialis wrote:
that's not really the point though, the imperium's been fighting for x many years longer than the tau, they worked out that with a totally erratic and unforgiving supply chain and illiterate peasant soldiers, good tech is wasted on the grunt. better to give them a weapon that never jams (thought they do in the books - wtf),

They do in the codex and in the other game systems as well. It may surprise you, but they do have moving parts.

pax_imperialis wrote:

that can be reloaded simply,

As simply as any other magazine.

pax_imperialis wrote:

has a large ammo capacity,

60 rounds but this varies by pattern

pax_imperialis wrote:
doesn't use resources that are needed elsewhere,

Debatable. No real information on what does into them.

pax_imperialis wrote:

is sturdy enough to be used as a stave or club,

No.

Lasgun is NOT an 'Ogryn Proof' weapon and can break if used in that manner.

pax_imperialis wrote:

and has no bullet drop or sway to counter.

True.

pax_imperialis wrote:
bolters are great weapons, but are complex and costly to build and maintain, require massive amounts of training and if they are lost then it's an economic hit for the imperium.

Correct right up to that last part. The loss of a few million bolters would have negligible effect on the Imperium. Everyone from Forge Worlds to private munitions manufacturers produces bolters. Just not in the volume that they produce lasguns. The real draw of lasguns is they're easy to produce and highly reliable by the standards of Imperial tech.

pax_imperialis wrote:

the same probably applies to the pulse rifle, just that the tau aren't in a state of all out war. yet.

With the arrival of hive fleet Kraken forcing the Imperium and Tau into a (probably temporary) alliance, 'yet' is no longer applicable. However, even when cut off from resupply by the IN on Taros, they did not seem to have an issue with resupply against the IG. It could be because Tau pulse rifles fire plasma derived from hydrogen. The most common element in the universe, and hydrogen plasma would be a logical byproduct of the fusion plants many of their vehicles use (and water). A pulse rifle holds 36 rounds, meaning it holds about half what a lasgun does, but also has a tremendous range advantage and deals damage similar to a bolter.

pax_imperialis wrote:

of course the defecting guardsman would trade his lassy for a pulse rifle, but he won't even be able to shoot himself with it when a million hormagaunts are staring at him if he doesn't have any ammo or a cleaning kit for it. gw wants the tau to be the shootiest force around, fair enough. but the humble lasgun, by say ww1 standards would have been a godsend. and the 41st millennium is basically a big ww1.

The defecting guardsman should be signing up to get the rail rifle. That said however...

Given the nature of Tau tactics (in that they use tactics beyond 'human wave' and 'armored breakthrough') and that fact that Tau have a large selection of orbit capable flying troop transports, it's unlikely even a human auxiliary would find himself in that position, as the tau usually opt for mobility over static defense, unless that defense is part of a trap.

Remember that Tau are a WW2 army in a WWi universe,

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I hear the argument that the Tau are getting stronger and better with their evolving tech quite a lot. My question is will it help in the short run? I know gw wont really advance the timeline. But if it would, I would see a reasonable chance they might get hit by a full tyranid fleet in a 100 years or so. The Imperium can trade space for time, but the Tau really cant do that as much. Will the Tau survive a major fleet like Behemoth or Leviathan?

It has shown up and helped in the short term. Taros being the best example where they went from running from a titan to blowing it's brains out. There ability to advance dose help them out in the short term.

Can they survive a full invasion? Maybe. They might be able to use their stealer cure to keep a low profile and protect there core worlds.

Okay i'll just throw it out there, i don't like the tau. I stopped playing 40k when they came out and i've only just got back into it. I bought the tau codex when it came out and didn't like the fact that GW made a race that everyone would go out and buy because they had the then-strongest weapon and their basic troops had massively powerful weapons for a relatively low points cost. i also don't like that they were sold as the innocent good guys that will make people argue that the imperium is too cruel, and that they fought for a really crappy reason called "the greater good". i could not stop thinking about the part in hot fuzz when all the oldies keep chanting the greater good. even the necrons, cheap as they were, were evil and nefarious and made a firm stand about being intent on murdering everyone. that i can understand. the Tau just seem like the new eldar on the block, but at least the eldar have a rich heritage and personality. i really wish GW had just made the eldar better than invent the Tau. They even made a terrible ps2 game just to advertise how cool the tau were. I'm not being an imperial purist here, i would gladly play necrons, chaos, nids, and i did used to play dark eldar.

I'm off to look up the Gaunt's ghosts novel which distinctly mentions a 400 shot capacity of the lasgun. The lasgun is the AK47 and the pulse rifle is the AR15. And we both know which one has endured, despite having many shortcomings.

I'm not sure why i'm arguing my loyalty towards one fictional weapon over another, but thats what 40k does to people

pax_imperialis wrote:
i also don't like that they were sold as the innocent good guys that will make people argue that the imperium is too cruel, and that they fought for a really crappy reason called "the greater good".

Maybe you should have read more than the cover of the codex? From day one the Tau were sold as an aggressive expansionist empire whose "greater good" is "the Tau will rule the universe and everyone will submit to them". They're only "good" in 40k because they're pragmatists who have a military that isn't run by idiots, embrace progress in science and technology as a tool for success, and offer their enemies the chance to surrender and submit to Tau rule before they kill them. In any universe besides 40k they'd be the bad guys.

Maybe you should read the short story within. It concludes with a poignant wee speech between "Surly aggressive space marine" and "Wise noble Tau sage". How could they be deemed the bad guys? In any other universe the Tau would be Native Americans. I simply said i didn't like them when they came out and gave you my reasons. I also said I haven't played since they first came out, so I am open to being enlightened as to developments of both their canon and rules set. I am pleased that other races now have bigger guns to counter the mighty railgun with, and look forward to using my Banesword to splatter any fruity space hippy that leaps about in his xvst5000 battlesuit. Isn't that why we play the game?

pax_imperialis wrote:
How could they be deemed the bad guys?

Because they're an aggressive expansionist empire with a policy of "submit or die". They're only "good" in 40k because they're pragmatic enough to include "submit" while everyone else goes straight to genocide. In another fictional universe that doesn't share 40k's black-and-dark-gray morality the Tau would be the bad guys because their concept is very similar to other "bad guy" empires in those universes.

In any other universe the Tau would be Native Americans.

You've got the right time period for your analogy, but you've got it backwards. The Tau would be the white settlers. Like the US they have a policy of manifest destiny, and you will either submit to their rule (and you're not going to be at the top of the social ladder) or die to make room for more Tau.

I am pleased that other races now have bigger guns to counter the mighty railgun with

Yeah, how dare GW give the dedicated shooting army the best gun. It's much better if everyone else who isn't as focused on shooting gets guns of equal power so the Tau will have no advantage or reason to exist.

and look forward to using my Banesword to splatter any fruity space hippy that leaps about in his xvst5000 battlesuit. Isn't that why we play the game?

And I look forward to my rail cannon Tigershark blowing a nice hole in your tank while you complain about how you can't hit flyers with blast weapons.

pax_imperialis wrote:
Maybe you should read the short story within. It concludes with a poignant wee speech between "Surly aggressive space marine" and "Wise noble Tau sage". How could they be deemed the bad guys? In any other universe the Tau would be Native Americans. I simply said i didn't like them when they came out and gave you my reasons. I also said I haven't played since they first came out, so I am open to being enlightened as to developments of both their canon and rules set. I am pleased that other races now have bigger guns to counter the mighty railgun with, and look forward to using my Banesword to splatter any fruity space hippy that leaps about in his xvst5000 battlesuit. Isn't that why we play the game?

Ah the early tau where crazy nice. They are a tad darker now. Still rather nice though unless your a human.

The Tau would be the Empire from Star Wars, the Alliance in Firefly, and the robots in the Matrix.

Peace comes from the barrel of the gun in 40K, Tau are just hesitant to pull the trigger.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Peace comes from the barrel of the gun in 40K, Tau are just hesitant to pull the trigger.

Not really even hesitant, just pragmatic enough to know that it's better to conquer an enemy (and their resources) intact without a fight than to spend your own forces to conquer a burned out wasteland that used to be a city.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Peace comes from the barrel of the gun in 40K, Tau are just hesitant to pull the trigger.

Not really even hesitant, just pragmatic enough to know that it's better to conquer an enemy (and their resources) intact without a fight than to spend your own forces to conquer a burned out wasteland that used to be a city.

*sputter sputter* but it's the principle of the matter! Can't let hugo heretic or xavier xeno just have the burned out city, they might get ideas above their station

 Peregrine wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Peace comes from the barrel of the gun in 40K, Tau are just hesitant to pull the trigger.

Not really even hesitant, just pragmatic enough to know that it's better to conquer an enemy (and their resources) intact without a fight than to spend your own forces to conquer a burned out wasteland that used to be a city.

And why do you think the Imperium engages in ground wars instead of just orbital bombardment or exterminatus, when both are easily available options? Planets and infrastructure are resources that last thousands, or at least hundreds, of years, while the average soldier has a maximum operational life of a few decades, and tanks are quite a bit cheaper than massive factory complexes, and even a million tanks are still infinitely more replaceable than a habitable planet.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
And why do you think the Imperium engages in ground wars instead of just orbital bombardment or exterminatus, when both are easily available options? Planets and infrastructure are resources that last thousands, or at least hundreds, of years, while the average soldier has a maximum operational life of a few decades, and tanks are quite a bit cheaper than massive factory complexes, and even a million tanks are still infinitely more replaceable than a habitable planet.

Except that:

1) The Imperium loves to fight grinding wars of attrition where everything of value is destroyed in years-long sieges while the enemy has no reason to surrender (since you're going to kill them anyway) and will fight to the death and use their last dying act to set off a final suicide bomb that destroys everything you were trying to take.

and

2) People are valuable resources. It's better to conquer a planet with all of its civilian factory workers still alive and productive than to execute all of them and have to pull your own workers off some other factory to go work in the captured one.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Humans had warp travel before the astronomicon, and still have to rely on the less precise (and thus slower and more careful) method out where the signal is weak. The Tau tech is like a primitive version of the earliest human warp technology.

Archonate wrote:Indeed, and the imperium will stay ahead in this department unless the Tau figure out the webway or something.

That was true right up to the point IA 3 came out, It's also in BFG: FAQ 2010.

Further: on the Tau/IN debate: Tau can actually field more LBs than IN as their fleet structure goes 'battleship down' where IN goes 'Cruiser Up'. The only way you can have more LBs is with either the Segmentum Solar fleet list, a SERIOUS (and expensive) specialist build from the Bakka Fleetlist or one of the banned lists from IA 10.

Remember that on a larger than standard board, Tau easily dominate IN.

What does that have to do with "their tech is basically a crude version of the earliest human warp drives"? IA3 gave them slightly larger ships, not real warp drives. For that matter, what does the BFG equivalent of a FOC have to do with anything? By that reasoning, an IG Company could have two command squads, 44 commissars, 752 infantry, 38 chimeras, 9 leman russ executioners, and 9 vendettas, compared to what Tau can take in their FOC (6 crisis suits, 9 crisis suits or 18 stealth suits, 72 firewarriors, 24 pathfinders, 9 devilfish, and either 3 hammerheads or 9 broadsides).

Although for a further point of scale, that theoretical company there? That's less of the Imperium's military strength than one of the firewarriors' guns is of the Tau's. Less than the ammo in the pulse rifle's magazine, probably.

Imperial tech does not 'generate' plasma. Imperial plasma guns 'overheat' because they fail to correctly generate the magnetic packet that keeps the plasma contained that it extracts from the plasma containment flask. This is why in the RPG 'Best' Imperial quality plasma weapons do not overheat.

I wish I could recall where that's from, because I distinctly recall plasma weapons generating the shots from the material in the canister, such that if it's not fired fast enough, it overloads and forcibly vents the readied plaasma.

Lasguns *can* be recharged in a fire, however, this shortens their useable life and halves their magazine capacity. They cannot be 'reloaded by exposing them to sunlight' and are actually supposed to be plugged into a charging station attached to a generator.

But they still can be recharged from that fire, even if it's not great for their longevity. And lasguns have always been rechargeable by leaving them in direct sunlight; even if it's not mentioned explicitly in the last codex, which also conflates hellguns and hotshot lasguns/longlas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
And why do you think the Imperium engages in ground wars instead of just orbital bombardment or exterminatus, when both are easily available options? Planets and infrastructure are resources that last thousands, or at least hundreds, of years, while the average soldier has a maximum operational life of a few decades, and tanks are quite a bit cheaper than massive factory complexes, and even a million tanks are still infinitely more replaceable than a habitable planet.

Except that:

1) The Imperium loves to fight grinding wars of attrition where everything of value is destroyed in years-long sieges while the enemy has no reason to surrender (since you're going to kill them anyway) and will fight to the death and use their last dying act to set off a final suicide bomb that destroys everything you were trying to take.

and

2) People are valuable resources. It's better to conquer a planet with all of its civilian factory workers still alive and productive than to execute all of them and have to pull your own workers off some other factory to go work in the captured one.

Let's take a minute to look at the possible scenarios for an Imperial conquest for a developed world:

1) the planet has fallen to chaos, but contains valuable manufactoriums. The people are tainted by chaos or dead, but the machines might be salvageable: the guard lands in force and butchers the raving defenders wholesale, because the Guard is actually a fairly elite and well-equipped force when not compared to an irrelevant extravagance like the space marine chapters or a less irrelevant but even more extravagantly outfitted force like the Eldar, or other Eldar.

1b) the planet has fallen to chaos and is not strategically valuable in any sense: exterminatus, permanent restriction on entry to the system.

2) the planet has fallen to Orks. The people have been eaten alive and the machines smashed and looted for scrap. The Guard lands in force and wages a slow, grinding war against the numerically superior orks, finally breaking their war machine, while the Navy uses orbital bombardment against any notable Ork strongpoint.

3) the planet is a Xeno world. If the planet might be strategically valuable, orbital bombardments and a Guard mop up, otherwise exterminatus and a permanent restriction on entry to the system.

4) the local government has rebelled/gone over to the Tau/whatever, and chaos isn't involved: the Guard lands in force and butchers any resistance, recovering any infrastructure and freeing the people from their deranged local overlord (unless they split up for exactly no reason and entirely counter to how they ever operate, to allow a grossly inferior Xeno force to have a sporting chance).

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The Imperium can trade space for time, but the Tau really cant do that as much. Will the Tau survive a major fleet like Behemoth or Leviathan?

They already did. It was Hive Fleet Gorgon. A particularly nasty Hive Fleet at that, which was renowned for it's ability to evolve far faster than a normal Hive Fleet.

It has been speculated that the reason Gorgon was evolving so fast was because they were fighting the Tau, who's combat methods and technology were more flexible and adaptable than those of the other races of the galaxy. So the Tyranids had to speed up their evolution to compensate. The Ke'lshan Tau won that race in the end. (My sept )

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Let's take a minute to look at the possible scenarios for an Imperial conquest for a developed world:

You missed one.

5) The planet is owned by a minor alien race. Rather than conquer them and take the planet intact the Imperium mindlessly exterminates the xenos for no reason other than they are xenos. Since everyone knows that genocide is the only possible outcome all resistance is to the death, and the Imperium conquers a burned out wasteland that is no longer useful for anything other than its raw material resources.

And don't bother arguing about this, the whole point of the Imperium is that they're paranoid genocidal monsters who act against their own best interests because they no longer have the ability to act rationally. This is a huge element of the whole grimdark thing, the Imperium can't be pragmatic and effective, their purpose in the story is to be the horrible evil you have to accept as your only chance of surviving just a little bit longer.

 Peregrine wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Let's take a minute to look at the possible scenarios for an Imperial conquest for a developed world:

You missed one.

5) The planet is owned by a minor alien race. Rather than conquer them and take the planet intact the Imperium mindlessly exterminates the xenos for no reason other than they are xenos. Since everyone knows that genocide is the only possible outcome all resistance is to the death, and the Imperium conquers a burned out wasteland that is no longer useful for anything other than its raw material resources.

And don't bother arguing about this, the whole point of the Imperium is that they're paranoid genocidal monsters who act against their own best interests because they no longer have the ability to act rationally. This is a huge element of the whole grimdark thing, the Imperium can't be pragmatic and effective, their purpose in the story is to be the horrible evil you have to accept as your only chance of surviving just a little bit longer.

That was option 3, and Xenos have nothing to offer the Imperium aside from a planet to mine for resources or cultivate for agriculture. The Imperium has a population measured in the tens of quadrillions, and the most advanced tech of any species save for necrons and Eldar, what could some tiny, hostile, unknown quantity offer them?

And before you say "what if they're not hostile?": if they're not, the Imperium has better things to do with its resources than fight some pointless war, or redirect a ship capable of performing exterminatus; if the Imperium is at war with xenos, it's because the xenos are hostile.



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 Archonate wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The Imperium can trade space for time, but the Tau really cant do that as much. Will the Tau survive a major fleet like Behemoth or Leviathan?

They already did. It was Hive Fleet Gorgon. A particularly nasty Hive Fleet at that, which was renowned for it's ability to evolve far faster than a normal Hive Fleet.

It has been speculated that the reason Gorgon was evolving so fast was because they were fighting the Tau, who's combat methods and technology were more flexible and adaptable than those of the other races of the galaxy. So the Tyranids had to speed up their evolution to compensate. The Ke'lshan Tau won that race in the end. (My sept )

Gorgon: the smallest and most pathetic fleet from a species defined by being small and pathetic, but nearly enough to wipe out the Tau.


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 Peregrine wrote:

And I look forward to my rail cannon Tigershark blowing a nice hole in your tank while you complain about how you can't hit flyers with blast weapons.

Broadsides are better for the points, particularly since in apoc you don't have a FOC and can deploy each one as its own unit. The tigershark has one sD shot and two structure points at av10 for just a little less than a warhound, the absolute bane (for its point cost at least, though reaver titans are slightly nicer in some ways) of everything on land aside from the bs op tyranid heirophant. Tigersharks are rubbish for their cost, aside from being immune to every good titan weapon (but extremely vulnerable to every anti-flyer weapon).