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So I'm unifying the disparate elements of my space marine collection into one "cohesive" (adhesive?) force. And When looking online at a list of space marine chapters to take on, I saw, what I thought to be a clerical error in regards to the emperor's swords chapter.

It turns out I was wrong. These poor sods have been founded, and then annihilated, to a man, TWICE so naturally I thought this would be a great bit of fluff for my chapter. The emperor's swords... redux... redux.

BUT! Since the fate of the previous chapter(s) (I'm sorry, but a chapter being utterly destroyed twice is pretty funny... I mean... even the aren't that bad!) will play a roll in the fluff i develop for this chapter, I'd like to know if anyone has more information as to the previous emperor's swords chapter...s

Anyways, thanks folks!

The word is cohesive, an adhesive would stick them together...

I am assuming the symbols are for Crimson Fists? They were nearly destroyed once by a huge mistake during the opening stages of a war....

Here are the two chapters:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor%27s_Swords_(Ghorstangrad)#.UOyPym_inL4
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor%27s_Swords_(Bellicas)#.UOyPyW_inL4
enjoy

Sorry, I was making a bad joke.. adhesive.. cause the models are all held together by super glue!! get it?!?! yeah? yeah? no..?

and yeah.. i found those articles, was just wondering if there were any other ones kicking around

Wait.. so you /want/ to play a Chapter that's been entirely annihilated, not just once but TWICE?

Also reading their normal combat record, they seem to just be fail after fail.. they're like a bad episode of Imperium's Funniest Home Videos.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Wait.. so you /want/ to play a Chapter that's been entirely annihilated, not just once but TWICE?

exactly

3rd time's the charm...
At any rate.
If they have been annihilation twice it's not likely they'll be annihilation a 3rd time... right?

I guess it's like the founding of a sports-team. the Ottawa Senators won the Stanley Cup in the 1930's. The current Ottawa Senators claim to fame is failing at draft day. So you have basically called a chapter the same and went for the sports-team approach. You can roll with it i suppose, but they are not the same chapter as that which was wiped out.

 purplefood wrote:
3rd time's the charm...
At any rate.
If they have been annihilation twice it's not likely they'll be annihilation a 3rd time... right?

Someday we'll see OP winning ard' boys and GT with that army. Then we can all have a collective "wat"

 Lord PoPo wrote:
adhesive.. cause the models are all held together by super glue!! get it?!?! yeah? yeah? no..?

I lol'd.

On to business. I doubt you will find anymore information on these Chapters than you already had. But there are a few things that you can build on in your own fluff. They were both destroyed on their homeworlds. They were both "invaded" from within -- one homeworld turned out to be a Tomb World and the Alpha Legion secretly controlled the population of the other. The first example is just plain bad luck. The second example, however, is more than bad luck. The Alpha Legion are ridiculous trolls but what if they had some motive for keeping the Emperor's Swords dead? So let's assume the Alpha Legion incident happened after the Tomb World one. The Emperor's Sword are wiped out completely. Then they are refounded and apparently given a new world (which is kind of a big deal, not every chapter has a world). Then, of all the Chapters that comprise Adeptus Astartes, the Alpha Legion decides to spend centuries picking on these guys? Seems a little odd. What's so special about the Emperor's Swords that the Alpha Legion, assuming they aren't just trolling, specifically go after them when they are re-founded? And what's so special about the Emperor's Swords that they would have been re-founded (remember, that is a decision made by the High Lords of Terra) in the first place?

When you start to design your army background, ask yourself -- why would the High Lords of Terra raise this particular chapter yet again? Why is it so necessary to have a Chapter called the Emperor's Swords? Besides the name, what else do the three foundings have in common? In answering these questions, you might look to the Alpha Legion background. The deep dark secrets of the traitors might give you some inspiration as to your own homebrew Chapter.

 Manchu wrote:

 Lord PoPo wrote:
adhesive.. cause the models are all held together by super glue!! get it?!?! yeah? yeah? no..?

I lol'd.

On to business. I doubt you will find anymore information on these Chapters than you already had. But there are a few things that you can build on in your own fluff. They were both destroyed on their homeworlds. They were both "invaded" from within -- one homeworld turned out to be a Tomb World and the Alpha Legion secretly controlled the population of the other. The first example is just plain bad luck. The second example, however, is more than bad luck. The Alpha Legion are ridiculous trolls but what if they had some motive for keeping the Emperor's Swords dead? So let's assume the Alpha Legion incident happened after the Tomb World one. The Emperor's Sword are wiped out completely. Then they are refounded and apparently given a new world (which is kind of a big deal, not every chapter has a world). Then, of all the Chapters that comprise Adeptus Astartes, the Alpha Legion decides to spend centuries picking on these guys? Seems a little odd. What's so special about the Emperor's Swords that the Alpha Legion, assuming they aren't just trolling, specifically go after them when they are re-founded? And what's so special about the Emperor's Swords that they would have been re-founded (remember, that is a decision made by the High Lords of Terra) in the first place?

When you start to design your army background, ask yourself -- why would the High Lords of Terra raise this particular chapter yet again? Why is it so necessary to have a Chapter called the Emperor's Swords? Besides the name, what else do the three foundings have in common? In answering these questions, you might look to the Alpha Legion background. The deep dark secrets of the traitors might give you some inspiration as to your own homebrew Chapter.

Could have it that the Emperor's Swords are rebuilt from the Geneseed Tithe and are the custodians of Imperial relics or something, and the Alpha Legion just likes wiping them out trying to obtain said relics.

It could be any number of things. There's enough fluff already there to stir the imagination.

One thing I would recommend is NOT writing fluff that "solves every problem." Leave some things a mystery -- even to yourself. It helps to give the Chapter a sense of "motivation."

 Manchu wrote:

Really smart things

This, is an awesome idea, and an angle that I hand't even considered before. You're dead on about the solves every problem issue too the grim dark of 40k always feels a little grimmier and darkier with a little mystery.. which is great since no one actually has any idea what's going on, with the possible exception of the eldar, who must just be going all the time.

I also was looking at the demise of the previous chapters for inspiration, and I figured that, since both chapters were stomped because of their planet essentially fething them over, the third founding (jesus... it's still funny to think of ) would probably be fleet based, where they alone control the comings and goings in their domain.

As for the actual cause of the re-founding, I was trying to find other similar cases with little luck. IG regiments are re-founded to meet planetary tithes, and I wasn't able to find any records of a chapter being re-founded, other than the emperor's swords. It strikes me though that it is very unlikely that the entire chapter died out either time. The odds of the entire chapter being at their homeworld at any given time, especially THOSE given times, seem small at best. So that means there's some of the geneseed that could be floating around out there, as well as whatever knowledge the chapter once held... ooooooooooohhhh mysteriousness

One other thing, maybe there is a connection between the Alpha Legion and the Necrons?

Ehm what? I don't think so, maybe between the Iron Hands and Necrons, sure or for a Traitor Legion, the Iron Warriors. They could be the guys to try to use them in a bid to reduce mutations, but not the Alphas, they are more subterfuge and dagger in the back. Infact I wouldn't be at all surprised if they eliminate a family of nobles and takes the place of the males. That seems to be their MO. Not striking deals with questionable Xenos.

I don't see an argument, just an opinion. Alpha Warriors don't strike deals with questionable xenos? Maybe read Legion ...

Haven't read it Manchu. So sorry, maybe I'm a little less informed than you, but you can send me the story at a PM. I trust you enough for you to not needing to back it up too heavily. . You can tell me the story there, or even here, but a rught guideline would be nice. I have already once adopted your viewpoint at something, but that's another story.

Well ...



So the Alpha Legion certainly did traffic with xenos. Since Newcrons have personalities and various goals, it's not too hard imagining the Alpha Legion dealing with them. Maybe the Alpha Legion wanted the "first" incarnation of the Emperor's Swords dead and, while working with or even fighting against Necrons, found out that the Emperor's Swords' homeworld was a Tomb World. So the Alpha Legion woke them up and stood aside while the Chapter was destroyed.

But, after patting each other on the back about that whole thing, they'd turn around to find that the High Lords founded a new Emperor's Swords Chapter. Imagine their surprise. So they went to work on that and it took a long, long time. But finally, they succeeded and the Emperor's Swords were no more! Except ... OP wants to "resurrect them." So you can imagine the Alpha Legion hearing of a THIRD founding of Emperor's Sword and being like "WTF?!"

If you write it up this way, you've got to wonder -- what is the Alpha Legion's problem? And what is the High Lord's problem? Or are the High Lord's even involved? Maybe not ...

The symbol of the Fallen Alpha Legion is a hydra because you can chop off a hydra's head and it will not die. This is how the Alpha Legion fight. They have been pronounced exterminated several time but they always pop back up again. Just think how pissed they would be if some Loyalist chapter was doing THE. EXACT. SAME. TRICK. It almost makes you wonder where the Emperor's Swords geneseed came from ... but surely, that is a mystery that we will never figure out ...

But yeah, the first attack on the Emperor's Swords may have just been typical Alpha Legion trolling. But when the Emperor's Swords showed up again, suddenly it was the trolls who were being trolled.

Oh I took the aliens to be demons masquerading as Xenos. Not that they were actual Xenos. I sort of went with that, unspectacular, but not a great leap of logic.

Back to the subject, I mentioned the Ottawa Senators. There are two of them, they are known for vastly different things.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
demons masquerading as Xenos

No evidence for that, though. I mean, some people say the Emperor is really Fateweaver.

Demons masquerading as Xenos, stranger things have happened. And Fateweaver being the Emperor? Are you dropping into Bag of Kittens? That's like Obama listening to people at Arkham for making decisions. Seriously.

Yes, I am saying that the idea that Cabal were daemons masquerading as xenos is silly.

Sorry, I apologize for that one. I meant no offense. I got tugged in.

Daemons posing as Dakkanauts, more like.

In any case, OP, you might consider writing your fluff from the point of the Alpha Legion. Those guys would be obsessed with any Chapter they mistakenly thought they had annihilated once much less twice. And since they could only guess at the secrets of the Emperor's Swords, you could preserve your Chapter's mystery.

Demons can easily pose as Eldar f.ex. Just one example, I think your example is more farfetched than mine to be honest. But this is a matter of interpretation, and I go for a common one with regards to TV-series and such.

I've not had time to read through the nex codex, so when I saw "have their own personalities and motives" and other stuff..

anyways, Even if necrons were still the implacable unthinking machines, the alpha legion could have guided the ill-fated chapter and the necrons into contact with eachother... with the necrons kiiiind of having the upper hand what with the field of engagement being just kind of a little bit a tomb world

I was also considering that, perhaps, the first Emperor's swords weren't so ignorant of the cybernetic sleeping beauties beneath them as the "official records" say, but were in fact studying, or the custodes of those who were studying the subterranean tombs.

But those who scoured the silent tombs delved too greedily, and too deep, and awoke demons of shadow... and green flame.... sorry.. I had to

However, before they tripped some doohicky and sent the whole place to terminator hell, likely the chapter did stumble upon quite a bit of archeotech, and if there were survivors (which again, there probably were, just cause chapters are rarely all in one place) and...


AGH!!! checked my sources before... and the emperor's swords were first destroyed by the alpha legion, and then by the necrons?!?!? ugh >< well there's goes that idea

NO! It can still work.

In fact, it may even work better. What if the Alpha Legion's first attack was just another one of their many thousand engagements against the Imperium? Just another enemy destroyed by meticulous planing and treachery, right? Right -- at least until they show up again. At that point, the Alpha Legion would be suspicious. Usually, they're the ones who are mistakenly reported purged, not their victims.

So the Alpha Legion would surely take interest in seeing the enemies they thought they had destroyed reborn. Your idea about the Emperor's Swords (Take 2) knowing their (second) homeworld was a Tomb World could also tie into why the High Lords re-founded the Chapter (or is said to have; that would be a mystery) -- there is something about the Emperor's Swords, they're looking for something, something you can only find in the silent menace of a Necron sanctuary.

The Alpha Legion, eager to wipe out their resurrected enemies, would surely soon find out about the Tomb World and figure the best way to take down the Emperor's Swords would be to awaken the Necrons and then stand back. So why not, the Alpha Legion disturbs the tombs and the Emperor's Swords are devastated once again -- this time, the Alpha Legion thinks, for good.

That's where you come in: the Alpha Legion has received reports through its network of cultist cells that the Emperor's Swords have re-emerged. Where? Last time it was a Tomb World -- ostensibly because they were looking for some secret of the Necrons or related to the Necrons. This time, it would be something stranger ... another piece of the puzzle for the Alpha Legion to try and solve. So when you decide where your Emperor's Swords (Third Take) are hanging out, whether on a planet or around a planet in a fleet, makes sure the question is "what do a Necron Tomb World and a ________ have in common?"

To fill in that blank, you may want to look through the new Necron dex.

All these ideas are making me more solid than a Nurgling's carbuncles. I might have to use them.
The personalities and motives thing mostly just applies to the higher ranked Necron, like the Overlords and whatnot. Warriors are still basically mindless killing machines.

I have an idea. Instead of the Alpha Legion trying to kill the Emperor's Swords like they have a vendetta, perhaps it's the other way around. Either through manipulation or luck, they guide the Emperor's Swords into landing on a planet that they know is a tomb world. The catch? There's something on the tomb world that the Alpha Legion wants, but isn't risking their necks to go down and get themselves.
The Emperor's Swords trot along and plop down on the planet causing the Canoptek machines to begin the reawakening process. The Necrons swarm out of the ground and destroy the unfortunate chapter, but since they're all awake now they decide to go see what else is around them. Most of the Necron leave the planet, and the Alpha Legion drops in and nabs whatever they wanted. They also bag up all the geneseed they can carry and make new Legionnaires.

But how exactly will that correlate to a third founding? Well, let's see. First try, the Alpha Legion basically infiltrates and assimilates the entire chapter. Second time, the Alpha Legion got them to get the Necron to move out and got to loot the bodies. Third time? Well, let's just say that the Alpha Legion will most likely be getting the same present again.

To me, that's a story about the Alpha Legion getting really lucky and the Imperium being really dumb three times in a row. I like the idea reverse, like I said, where the Alpha Legion finds the roles reversed and develops a seething hatred for these Loyalist Marines that JUST.WON'T.STAY.DEAD. How many head's does the Hydra have? How many swords can the Emperor draw? Will the Hydra run out of heads before the Emperor runs out of swords? That's not a question the Alpha Legion is used to asking itself. Usually, they know things no one else does. So creating a Chapter that is a bizarre secret even to them -- that would drive them nuts and also give OP's homebrew Chapter a great arch-enemy.

Well, I wasn't suggesting it was the Imperium's fault the Alpha Legion took all the geneseed to restore their ranks.

But yeah, your idea is better :(

Well ... we could mash 'em up. What if however many centuries after the Alpha Legion thinks it eradicated the Emperor's Swords, they're pursuing a Necron relic for some unrelated reason. They track it down to ... you guessed it, the new homeworld of the Emperor's Swords. They get there and are like "WTF?!?!?" So they figure, okay, weird, but two birds with one stone. They plant information about the existence of the relic BUT NOT that it's a Tomb World. So the Emperor's Swords go down into the tombs, awaken the Necrons, and get slaughtered so the Legionnaires are like "just as planned" BUT when the Alpha Legion slides into collect their relic -- NO RELIC!

So OP's fluff could start with the Alpha Legion cultist cells reporting a sighting of the Emepror's Sword and the Alpha Legion vowing to hunt them down and retrieve the relic. And of course the irony would be -- they don't really have any proof that the Emperor's Swords even have the relic ... now it's personal.