Trillion Dollar Coin

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**KalashnikovMarine**

As a wise luminary once said "first you get the money, then you get the power"

**Ouze**

That comic KK posted is utterly hilarious.

**Frazzled**

Grey Templar wrote:
Precisely

Its just that I know many people that think many politicians are in it for the money. They really arn't. Their payday is almost always small beans to what they are making/already made as businessmen.

They get elected, then get rich. Its amazing how rich they can get (and their family -watch the spouse's income jump).

**whembly**

Yeah... this chart is telling...

**reiner**

These White House petitions are less ridiculous than the fact that news sources keep covering them like they're legitimate things happening.

**sebster**

PhantomViper wrote:
That is a pretty fair analysis of our situation, but you simply cannot run high deficits to try and prop up the economy when you already have a +100% of the GDP as debt, because no one will loan you the money for it at the rates that you need.

Portugal has been running a deficit since 1974, but the USA also hasn't run a surplus budget since Clinton (correct me if I'm wrong)! These are chronic spending problems that are always excused with your way of thinking: "we are running a deficit because the excess money that we are spending is being used to support the economy that will gain in value accordingly and give us back that excess money in taxes in the near future"! Except that it isn't working like that in the past 10+ years, since everyone that is overspending is still suffering from very anaemic growth rates that don't support the deficit spending...

Oh absolutely, stimulus spending should be a very short term thing - purely for the length of the business cycle in which the economy is flat. Once you get outside that and you still hear politicians justifying debt as stimulus spending, well then you get different politicians

For it's worth, though, right now the US is borrowing money at rates that are just a tick above 0% over inflation, so there's no doubt about them running out of lenders any time soon.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

whembly wrote:
Yeah... this chart is telling...

Who are the losers who can win a seat in congress but can't pull themselves up into the top 10%?

I demand names.

**AustonT**

sebster wrote:

whembly wrote:
Yeah... this chart is telling...

Who are the losers who can win a seat in congress but can't pull themselves up into the top 10%?

I demand names.

How exactly do you propose that all of the senators and representatives get into the top 10% OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE. It's like saying the 8 billionaires tied for last on the Forbes wealthiest list are failures because they only have $1.1B.
And also whembly fixed your image.

**Grey Templar**

What got fixed? You made it bigger and changed the color.

**Breotan**

AustonT wrote:
How exactly do you propose that all of the senators and representatives get into the top 10% OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE. It's like saying the 8 billionaires tied for last on the Forbes wealthiest list are failures because they only have $1.1B.

You can start by not mixing your data. The top 10% figure Whembly used is for all income earners in the USA, not a percentage of income of Congressmen.

**AustonT**

Breotan wrote:
AustonT wrote:
How exactly do you propose that all of the senators and representatives get into the top 10% OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE. It's like saying the 8 billionaires tied for last on the Forbes wealthiest list are failures because they only have $1.1B.
You can start by not mixing your data. The top 10% figure Whembly used is for all income earners in the USA, not a percentage of income of Congressmen.

Quote it then.

**whembly**

Not gonna happen now...
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/12/treasury-department-shoots-down-platinum-coin-idea-as-debt-ceiling-solution/

The Obama administration ended speculation Saturday that it would mint a trillion-dollar platinum coin as a way to avoid the debt ceiling.
Treasury Department spokesman Anthony Coley said the agency wouldn't mint one and the Federal Reserve would not accept the coin.
“Neither the Treasury Department nor the Federal Reserve believes that the law can or should be used to facilitate the production of platinum coins for the purpose of avoiding an increase in the debt limit,” Coley said.
His statement was followed by one from White House Press Secretary Jay Carney.
“There are only two options to deal with the debt limit: Congress can pay its bills or it can fail to act and put the nation into default," Carney said.
Though the idea seemed far fetched when it recently resurfaced, the Obama administration appeared to add speculation by not dismissing the idea outright.
On Wednesday, Carney said there was no "Plan B" on the debt ceiling but didn't totally rule out the platinum coin.
The idea of minting such a coin to invalidate the debt ceiling purportedly comes from part of the 1997 Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act.
The words were written by then-Delaware Republican Rep. Mike Castle, who purportedly is a coin collector.
Carney also said Saturday, "When congressional Republicans played politics with this issue last time, putting us at the edge of default, it was a blow to our economic recovery, causing our nation’s credit rating to be downgraded. The president and the American people won’t tolerate congressional Republicans holding the American economy hostage again simply so they can force disastrous cuts to Medicare and other programs the middle class depend on while protecting the wealthy. Congress needs to do its job.”

**LoneLictor**

Damn, I was hoping he'd do it.

If the Republicans are going to be flying rodent gak crazy, the democrats ought to match them in craziness.

**azazel the cat**

LoneLictor wrote:Damn, I was hoping he'd do it.

If the Republicans are going to be flying rodent gak crazy, the democrats ought to match them in craziness.

Because the only way to fight crazy... is with more crazy.

**LoneLictor**

azazel the cat wrote:
LoneLictor wrote:Damn, I was hoping he'd do it.

If the Republicans are going to be flying rodent gak crazy, the democrats ought to match them in craziness.

Because the only way to fight crazy... is with more crazy.

Just like how when a house is on fire, you torch it with a flamethrower.

That'll show the fire whose boss; my fire.

**Ouze**

I'm a little disappointed he won't order the coin minted. Not because I think it was a good idea (for a lot of reason I think it actually kinda isn't) but because I had started imagining the epic ceremony that would have followed it.

The theme from 2001: a space odyssey cranking as he brandishes it before Congress!

Then, it has to make it to the Fed. How is it going to make it there? The whole world knows about this legal tender, trillion dollar coin. Mafia figures, rogue SWAT agents, drug dealers, gang members, the worst of the worst all competing to ambush the convoy. Probably only one good cop, just days from retirement, can carry it through the sewers while a decoy is aboveground.

But the terrorists know! They've kidnapped his wife, and demand the coin as a ransom payment! Does he bring the coin to the fed, or hijack an experimental STOL aircraft from the Air Force and take them on, while hiding the coin on his cat's collar?

What if, also, Nazis or something?

**dogma**

Ouze wrote:
Probably only one good cop, just days from retirement, can carry it through the sewers while a decoy is aboveground.

Nah, James Cameron. He fixed the Deepwater Horizon mess, he can fix this one too. His compensation? Exclusive movie rights.

**sebster**

AustonT wrote:
How exactly do you propose that all of the senators and representatives get into the top 10% OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE. It's like saying the 8 billionaires tied for last on the Forbes wealthiest list are failures because they only have $1.1B.

You don't understand the graph, or its point. It isn't showing what percentage belong to the top 10% of congress. That number would be 10%, by definition, obviously.

It is showing what proportions of congress critters belong to the top one percentile of income earners, what percentage belong to the second to tenth percentiles, what percentage belong to the eleventh to twentieth percentiles, and who belongs to the bottom 80 percentiles.

If for some reason you doubt any of that, go to the link on the image, it is explained there quite clearly.

For the record, my joke was poking fun at the people who manage to get into congress but still can't pull themselves into the top 20% of wealthy people.

And also whembly fixed your image.

It isn't my image, its whembly's.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

whembly wrote:
Not gonna happen now...
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/12/treasury-department-shoots-down-platinum-coin-idea-as-debt-ceiling-solution/

The Obama administration ended speculation Saturday that it would mint a trillion-dollar platinum coin as a way to avoid the debt ceiling.
Treasury Department spokesman Anthony Coley said the agency wouldn't mint one and the Federal Reserve would not accept the coin.
“Neither the Treasury Department nor the Federal Reserve believes that the law can or should be used to facilitate the production of platinum coins for the purpose of avoiding an increase in the debt limit,” Coley said.
His statement was followed by one from White House Press Secretary Jay Carney.
“There are only two options to deal with the debt limit: Congress can pay its bills or it can fail to act and put the nation into default," Carney said.
Though the idea seemed far fetched when it recently resurfaced, the Obama administration appeared to add speculation by not dismissing the idea outright.
On Wednesday, Carney said there was no "Plan B" on the debt ceiling but didn't totally rule out the platinum coin.
The idea of minting such a coin to invalidate the debt ceiling purportedly comes from part of the 1997 Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act.
The words were written by then-Delaware Republican Rep. Mike Castle, who purportedly is a coin collector.
Carney also said Saturday, "When congressional Republicans played politics with this issue last time, putting us at the edge of default, it was a blow to our economic recovery, causing our nation’s credit rating to be downgraded. The president and the American people won’t tolerate congressional Republicans holding the American economy hostage again simply so they can force disastrous cuts to Medicare and other programs the middle class depend on while protecting the wealthy. Congress needs to do its job.”

Interesting. I thought there was a chance the Obama administration might use this as a bargaining chip, as in 'we don't want to do something stupid, but if you leave us no alternative then it's better than letting the country fall over.'

I'm guessing instead they've chosen to remove talk about an Obama solution to the problem (especially given the inherently goofy and legalistic nature of minting the trillion dollar coin) and put the political focus on congress to fix their own mess. It's a pretty reasonable strategy, provided the chance of congress fixing this (now and every other time it comes up) is high enough.

**whembly**

sebster wrote:
AustonT wrote:
How exactly do you propose that all of the senators and representatives get into the top 10% OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE. It's like saying the 8 billionaires tied for last on the Forbes wealthiest list are failures because they only have $1.1B.

You don't understand the graph, or its point. It isn't showing what percentage belong to the top 10% of congress. That number would be 10%, by definition, obviously.

It is showing what proportions of congress critters belong to the top one percentile of income earners, what percentage belong to the second to tenth percentiles, what percentage belong to the eleventh to twentieth percentiles, and who belongs to the bottom 80 percentiles.

If for some reason you doubt any of that, go to the link on the image, it is explained there quite clearly.

For the record, my joke was poking fun at the people who manage to get into congress but still can't pull themselves into the top 20% of wealthy people.

I understood your joke...

But, it is an interesting analysis how wealthy the majority of the congress critters are... but, that doesn't bother me as much, since getting elected in high positions is a significant achievement. It's just interesting... that's all.

And also whembly fixed your image.

It isn't my image, its whembly's.

First one is what I linked, but someone green'ed it out... *shrugs

Automatically Appended Next Post:

whembly wrote:
Not gonna happen now...
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/12/treasury-department-shoots-down-platinum-coin-idea-as-debt-ceiling-solution/

The Obama administration ended speculation Saturday that it would mint a trillion-dollar platinum coin as a way to avoid the debt ceiling.
Treasury Department spokesman Anthony Coley said the agency wouldn't mint one and the Federal Reserve would not accept the coin.
“Neither the Treasury Department nor the Federal Reserve believes that the law can or should be used to facilitate the production of platinum coins for the purpose of avoiding an increase in the debt limit,” Coley said.
His statement was followed by one from White House Press Secretary Jay Carney.
“There are only two options to deal with the debt limit: Congress can pay its bills or it can fail to act and put the nation into default," Carney said.
Though the idea seemed far fetched when it recently resurfaced, the Obama administration appeared to add speculation by not dismissing the idea outright.
On Wednesday, Carney said there was no "Plan B" on the debt ceiling but didn't totally rule out the platinum coin.
The idea of minting such a coin to invalidate the debt ceiling purportedly comes from part of the 1997 Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act.
The words were written by then-Delaware Republican Rep. Mike Castle, who purportedly is a coin collector.
Carney also said Saturday, "When congressional Republicans played politics with this issue last time, putting us at the edge of default, it was a blow to our economic recovery, causing our nation’s credit rating to be downgraded. The president and the American people won’t tolerate congressional Republicans holding the American economy hostage again simply so they can force disastrous cuts to Medicare and other programs the middle class depend on while protecting the wealthy. Congress needs to do its job.”

Interesting. I thought there was a chance the Obama administration might use this as a bargaining chip, as in 'we don't want to do something stupid, but if you leave us no alternative then it's better than letting the country fall over.'

I'm guessing instead they've chosen to remove talk about an Obama solution to the problem (especially given the inherently goofy and legalistic nature of minting the trillion dollar coin) and put the political focus on congress to fix their own mess. It's a pretty reasonable strategy, provided the chance of congress fixing this (now and every other time it comes up) is high enough.

**AustonT**

sebster wrote:
AustonT wrote:
And also whembly fixed your image.

It isn't my image, its whembly's.

No gak, that's why I said "and also whembly..."
Here I'll do it again
Whembly: it's green and yellow because red and blue carry certain implied connotations.

**sebster**

whembly wrote:
I understood your joke...

Cool

But, it is an interesting analysis how wealthy the majority of the congress critters are... but, that doesn't bother me as much, since getting elected in high positions is a significant achievement. It's just interesting... that's all.

Yeah, and to some extent it's going to naturally be the case. The sort of people who are smart enough and charismatic enough to make it into the higher levels of politics are are going to be the kind of people who were smart enough and charismatic enough to already make loads of money in business.

But there's also the problem that 'you need to be this rich to enter politics' - just the funding and personal connections needed to make a realistic shot at politics excludes a lot of people. Not everyone that has a useful contribution to make to politics is a self made gazillionaire. And if the system is dominated by only people from one group then you end up with a very myopic view on politics. Even if people have all the best intentions for helping the poor, there's going to be a basic lack of understanding on how to help them unless those people themselves are part of the conversation.

But then... if they were part of the conversation they'd be on $150k and wouldn't be the poor, so its something of a catch 22. I think what I'm saying is that Trading Places is a profound movie.

Eh... they can still do it if they wanted to...

The Debt Limit will be raised... nothing to worry 'bout.

Sure thing. It'll be raised, there'll be some concessions, and then we'll be back here again in another, what do you reckon? Six months? Maybe a year, or two?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AustonT wrote:
No gak, that's why I said "and also whembly..."
Here I'll do it again
Whembly: it's green and yellow because red and blue carry certain implied connotations.

Who cares about the colours... do you get the meaning of the image now? You get that it means 42% of congress members are among the top 1% wealthiest people in the country?

**whembly**

Sure thing. It'll be raised, there'll be some concessions, and then we'll be back here again in another, what do you reckon? Six months? Maybe a year, or two?

I don't know... how long does the "debt" needs to be armed and operational?

**KalashnikovMarine**

Ouze wrote:
I'm a little disappointed he won't order the coin minted. Not because I think it was a good idea (for a lot of reason I think it actually kinda isn't) but because I had started imagining the epic ceremony that would have followed it.

Apparently Obama's decided it's far easier just to order the debt ceiling raised.

**Daemonhammer**

Grey Templar wrote:
You can't simply print money to make a debt problem go away. Thats what happened in Germany after WW1.
The only way to make coins and sell them to make money would be to have it be hard currency. The government could sell gold coins but that would be no different than just selling gold bullion by the ounce.

Exactly. Was going to mention that.
Germany started printing money to get out of debt, and that caused hyper-inflation which in turn made the money literally worthless.
They could wipe their arse with paper money, and it would be cheaper than buying proper toilet paper

Making a special coin worth whatever amount of money is equal to printing money. if they do that, dollar will start going down in value.

**sebster**

Daemonhammer wrote:
Exactly. Was going to mention that.
Germany started printing money to get out of debt, and that caused hyper-inflation which in turn made the money literally worthless.

Oh for feth's sake. It's one thing to know nothing about this, it's quite another when you repeat a point that has already been raised and dismissed.

As I already explained, printing more money is only inflationary when that money is pumped into the economy* and the coin in this instance will not be getting put directly into circulation. Instead it will be deposited with the Fed, who will then have another trillion dollar asset, freeing them to continue to finance government through open market operations. The end result is exactly as if the debt ceiling were increased by another trillion.

Please, in future, just read the thread. You will learn things. It will save you from repeating stuff that is already established as naive and just plain wrong.

*Actually even then there's no guarantee of an inflationary effect. Since the GFC the Fed has trebled the money supply in the economy, while inflation has stayed low. This is because the accelerator (the amount of times that money is lent out, deposited back into the banking system, lent out again and so on) varies due to economic circumstances. For this reason it is important to vary the money supply considerably over time to maintain price levels

**whembly**

sebster wrote:
Daemonhammer wrote:
Exactly. Was going to mention that.
Germany started printing money to get out of debt, and that caused hyper-inflation which in turn made the money literally worthless.

Oh for feth's sake. It's one thing to know nothing about this, it's quite another when you repeat a point that has already been raised and dismissed.

As I already explained, printing more money is only inflationary when that money is pumped into the economy* and the coin in this instance will not be getting put directly into circulation. Instead it will be deposited with the Fed, who will then have another trillion dollar asset, freeing them to continue to finance government through open market operations. The end result is exactly as if the debt ceiling were increased by another trillion.

Please, in future, just read the thread. You will learn things. It will save you from repeating stuff that is already established as naive and just plain wrong.

*Actually even then there's no guarantee of an inflationary effect. Since the GFC the Fed has trebled the money supply in the economy, while inflation has stayed low. This is because the accelerator (the amount of times that money is lent out, deposited back into the banking system, lent out again and so on) varies due to economic circumstances. For this reason it is important to vary the money supply considerably over time to maintain price levels

Not that it'll happen, but I've highlighted the important part....

And what you "astricked" is exactly right... (to me, it is rocket science!

)

**sebster**

whembly wrote:
Not that it'll happen, but I've highlighted the important part....

Yeah, the Whitehouse has gone down another path. Makes political sense to put the pressure on congress and not leave the coin as an out, as we already discussed.

And what you "astricked" is exactly right... (to me, it is rocket science! )

In a sense it kind of is, you get a lot of really high end math factoring in a lot of variables to determine the necessary money supply. Way more than I can follow (I got the hell away from economics when it got into the really maths heavy econometrics stuff).