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This has been bugging the hell out of me. I mean why?

For those who don't know what I am talking about here is a reference pic.



I mean I have yet to see any version of a bolter with a stock.





Now for bolt pistols it makes more sense ( even if they hold it one handed, yay 40K logic )

But then why doe Las guns have stocks?





Was there a specific reasons, or was it one of those things that was originally just put in the game without any forehand knowledge (like how the treads on a land raider are backwards), that eventually just became iconic? Is because Space Marines are so strong, and have implants or something that render them mute? I mean I get that would help, but it would still make sens for them to have a stock.I doubt its a matter of weight for a Space marine if it is why not just a skeleton stock. If its a matter of compactness then why go with a folding stock, collapsible stock, or folding collapsible stock? I realize at the end of the day its no big deal, and that I am just nit picking. I just want to know if there is an official reasons, or what dakka thinks of it.

Bolters originally had stocks in earlier versions.

I believe you will find it comes down to two reasons.
One, they don't need them. Space Marines are strong enough and their armor is cool enough that recoil is not really an issue.
Two, rule of cool. It is cooler not to have a stock.

Why would an 8 foot tall demigod in ancient armor that can survive just about anything short of an orbital bombardment need a stock? When have you ever heard of a marine saying "Ow, that recoil hurt my shoulder."? Plus, where would they even hold the stock? I mean, just look how huge their pauldrons are. It just wouldn't fit.

 pretre wrote:
Bolters originally had stocks in earlier versions.

I believe you will find it comes down to two reasons.
One, they don't need them. Space Marines are strong enough and their armor is cool enough that recoil is not really an issue.
Two, rule of cool. It is cooler not to have a stock.

Its no just for recoil though. It provides a 3 large point of contact to your body (besides just your hands). Then again know 40K and how impractically awesome it is. You are most likely right

Sure, sure. Also keep in mind that SM have targeters and such so that they don't have to line up their shots.

Lasguns have stocks to help with aim.
Some Boltguns used to have stocks, but newer models don't.
Since old fluff on a boltgun was that the bolt was a caseless mini-rocket, recoil wasn't much of an issue. Then GW started producing higher quality models with shell casings that look cool, and the fluff changed.

-Matt

Maybe the pauldrons are big enough to act as a stock? Yeah, take that logic.

As above, plus the Bolter has built in recoil dampners to make the recoil a non-issue(even for non-space marines)

It also makes the bolter smaller, making it more maneuverable.

The bolter is a submachine gun. Many modern submachine guns don't have stocks, or the stocks are optional/folding.

 pretre wrote:
Bolters originally had stocks in earlier versions.

I believe you will find it comes down to two reasons.
One, they don't need them. Space Marines are strong enough and their armor is cool enough that recoil is not really an issue.
Two, rule of cool. It is cooler not to have a stock.

Exactly. Its done for reasons of badassery.

When you have exploding bullets, you don't need to look down sights.

I'd guess it's because a bolter round holds just enough charge to cycle the action and ignite the internal rocket engine within the round. Couple that with being designed to be wielded by transhuman users in power armor and managing recoil becomes unnecessary.

Or it just looks badass. I'd rather have telescoping stocks, but I'd also rather see my Marines have angled foregrips, bayonet lugs and Redi-mags on their combat carbines.

I'd also love to see widespread issue of the Stalker Pattern bolter.

Bolters are built to be fired from the Hip while charging into the enemy. The Space Marine puts one shoulder forward to absorb shots while holding the bolter at their side to soften the enemy. Once he's close enough, out comes the combat knife or chainsword, and suddenly you've got a whole new problem.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
I'd guess it's because a bolter round holds just enough charge to cycle the action and ignite the internal rocket engine within the round.

Not correct. The bolter still has the explosive charge of a normal bullet to propel it out of the barrel to lethal speed. The rocket activates after exit and further increases the speed and killing power. The gun still has recoil befitting its .75 caliber.

I'm thinking Marines can lock some joints in their armor to keep a bolter on-target, recoil probably isn't a very big issue for them.

The Space Marines have servo assisted power armor. The stock isn't really needed since they have less need for bone and muscle support for the weapon.

The Scouts should have stocks though.

GW designs most things best on asetetic and not practicality. Botlers are known for huge recoil and a stock would benefit them more then most other weapons.

In short: GW gunna GW.

Take into account some Marines fire bolters one-handed. Not much recoil there.

Then again, a rememberancer in an early HH book broke his arm firing a bolt pistol. So huge recoil for us, barely anything for a Mahreen.

Perhaps a better question would be why do the lasguns have stocks. Would they even have recoil?

Ivan Issaccs wrote:
Perhaps a better question would be why do the lasguns have stocks. Would they even have recoil?

My thoughts exactly.....help with aiming I suppose........beat people to death with....

Well their shoulders are massive in armor I doubt they could even hold a gun at shoulder.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Take into account some Marines fire bolters one-handed. Not much recoil there.

Then again, a rememberancer in an early HH book broke his arm firing a bolt pistol. So huge recoil for us, barely anything for a Mahreen.

I think I know the book your talking about (don't remember the title though) and I thought that he almost broke his wrist because he was old and not trained to fire weapons in general. Also bolt pistols are used by the IG a lot and in the codex you can give Stroom troopers Boltguns.

As for the issue of no stock Space marine strength, though IMHO it comes down to recoil dampners which allow normal humans to use them as well (though not as good). Though it is mainly a Space marine weapon.

Lasguns have stocks to help Guardsmen aim and keep their gun steady, even though there shouldn't be any recoil.

A Space Marine has no need of a stock on a bolter when his powered armor and augmented strength have no problem keeping steady and his helmet has taargeting software that assists aim.

Ivan Issaccs wrote:
Perhaps a better question would be why do the lasguns have stocks. Would they even have recoil?

Possibly, yes.

While there's a general assumption that laser weapons would have no recoil, it comes down (at least in the theoretical prototype designs that are floating around these days) to how the laser beam is generated.

Lasers that use a gas chamber (gas is compressed and suddenly accelerated in a small chamber... has something to do with focusing the beam, but it's been a while since I read the science behind it) can theoretically have significant recoil.

 insaniak wrote:

Ivan Issaccs wrote:
Perhaps a better question would be why do the lasguns have stocks. Would they even have recoil?

Possibly, yes.

While there's a general assumption that laser weapons would have no recoil, it comes down (at least in the theoretical prototype designs that are floating around these days) to how the laser beam is generated.

Lasers that use a gas chamber (gas is compressed and suddenly accelerated in a small chamber... has something to do with focusing the beam, but it's been a while since I read the science behind it) can theoretically have significant recoil.

You want a stock on a gun. Trust me if you were to shoot a gun like how they the Space Marines do it you wouldn't hit jack gak. Even without recoil, it just provides an extra point of contact on the gun. Hell there is a reason they are now using . Slanted angled for grips, rather than a magwell grip and regular slanted for girp. In that it gives you a better way to push the rifle stock into your shoulder. So that you have less muzzle wobble and more control.



But yeah you guys are right. GW does cuz it looks cool.

Ivan Issaccs wrote:
Perhaps a better question would be why do the lasguns have stocks. Would they even have recoil?

The stock isn't just for recoil. It provides a way for you to shoulder the weapon to assist with aiming.

Given how gigantic the las rifle is, that's pretty important.

 Makarov wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Ivan Issaccs wrote:
Perhaps a better question would be why do the lasguns have stocks. Would they even have recoil?

Possibly, yes.

While there's a general assumption that laser weapons would have no recoil, it comes down (at least in the theoretical prototype designs that are floating around these days) to how the laser beam is generated.

Lasers that use a gas chamber (gas is compressed and suddenly accelerated in a small chamber... has something to do with focusing the beam, but it's been a while since I read the science behind it) can theoretically have significant recoil.

You want a stock on a gun. Trust me if you were to shoot a gun like how they the Space Marines do it you wouldn't hit jack gak. Even without recoil, it just provides an extra point of contact on the gun. Hell there is a reason they are now using . Slanted angled for grips, rather than a magwell grip and regular slanted for girp. In that it gives you a better way to push the rifle stock into your shoulder. So that you have less muzzle wobble and more control.



But yeah you guys are right. GW does cuz it looks cool.

You do know that the guns a marine wields are hooked up to his helmet's targeting system. So unless his helmet is destroyed he will have no reason to aim down the barrel. Due to his HUD he is already looking down the barrel.

Stocks do not seem necessary due to the low recoil of the weapon. The blast compensator seems to work on the same principle as a RL recoilless gun, plus bolt weapons are said to be quite heavy, and the heavier a gun is the less it is affected by recoil (as more kinetic energy is required to move the object - basic physics). This is actually why one of the easiest way to reduce recoil in real life guns is to add mercury weights.

Still, as has been mentioned before, stocks would help a lot with aiming. For the Space Marines, this may simply not be an option due to their massive shoulder pauldrons. And since Space Marines were (or so I think I read) the first troops to be issued bolt weapons, maybe it is the decline in technological knowledge that forbids the addition of such basic things to an existing pattern ("it offends the machine spirit!!1"). At least that is one potential excuse I could pull outta my arse.

Another theory: The more elite Imperial forces also seem to employ auto-senses linked with their guns, and since these are the most prominent users of bolt weaponry, perhaps the stock also isn't necessary because their equipment allows them to see what their gun is currently aimed at anyways, regardless of how it is held. In other words, firing from the hip and actually hitting something. Unless you wear power armour, your aim would still be disrupted by a high rate of fire, but you could always opt to simply use these guns on semi-auto.

Grey Templar wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:I'd guess it's because a bolter round holds just enough charge to cycle the action and ignite the internal rocket engine within the round.

Not correct. The bolter still has the explosive charge of a normal bullet to propel it out of the barrel to lethal speed. The rocket activates after exit and further increases the speed and killing power. The gun still has recoil befitting its .75 caliber.

Says who?
GW's 2E Wargear book mentions the first stage propellant pushing the projectile out of the barrel "at low velocity", before the rocket motor kicks in.
Granted, that is very open to interpretation, but in my opinion, a normal .75 round does not have a "low velocity".

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:I'd also love to see widespread issue of the Stalker Pattern bolter.

Bah. I'll never accept a standard bolter with a targeter + silencer attached to it suddenly morph into a whole new class of weapon.

d3m01iti0n wrote:Take into account some Marines fire bolters one-handed. Not much recoil there.
Then again, a rememberancer in an early HH book broke his arm firing a bolt pistol. So huge recoil for us, barely anything for a Mahreen.

Commissars seem to be able to use bolt pistols just fine ("promotions!"), and bolt pistols use the same ammo as bolters do.
Novels are novels. Don't the Primarchs in the HH series also change their hair colour all the time or something?

 Lynata wrote:
Commissars seem to be able to use bolt pistols just fine ("promotions!"), and bolt pistols use the same ammo as bolters do.

Commissars are also trained soldiers.

xSPYXEx wrote:Commissars are also trained soldiers.

A good point. There's right ways and wrong ways to handle a gun.
The latter may result in serious injury and a video on youtube.

Granted, in Necromunda, some few gangers are using bolt weapons as well (even heavy bolters .. alone ), but in their case I'd assume they just learn from experience out in the streets.

Space Marines have targeters from the year 40,000 in their helmets. They don't need 3 points of contact to help aim!