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You want a stock on a gun. Trust me if you were to shoot a gun like how they the Space Marines do it you wouldn't hit jack gak. Even without recoil, it just provides an extra point of contact on the gun. Hell there is a reason they are now using . Slanted angled for grips, rather than a magwell grip and regular slanted for girp. In that it gives you a better way to push the rifle stock into your shoulder. So that you have less muzzle wobble and more control.

I'm pretty sure that the strength and stability of power armor would offset the lack of the "three points of contact" shoulder stock purpose. Even locking a gun into the three points of contact and current grip designs are only because normal human arms aren't strong enough to hold a heavy recoiling gun rock steady for aiming.

I;m willing to bet that power armor is actually OVERkill when factoring in the need for strength to hold a boltgun steady.

Which is ok since the extra strength and stability wasn't put there for a stable firing platform, its mearely a side benifit to the incredible protection and strength enhancement it gives to an already strong and durable super soldier.

Yup. You don't need a shoulder stock when your elbows and shoulders armor can lock perfectly in place to negate recoil (or at least are hugely stronger than the recoil of a boltgun, when a Space Marine can heft a Plasma Cannon), and you can fire from the hip when a targeting system in the helmet lets you see what you would see through a scope anyway, regardless of any way or direction you might hold the weapon.

Technically, in fluff terms, a Marine can fire one-handed around a corner, without ever exposing anything but the gun- and that's already current technology. the only limit is the strength of a person's arm/wrist.

Space marines having targeting software in their helmets" is not a sufficient counter-point. What of the [visorless] scout marine or the apparently numerous helmetless space marines? Or any other Imperial not equipped with such a helmet?

Bolter rounds are recoilless. There's not reason that they need to have a stock.

Of course, lasguns are recoilless as well, and they do. It's probably, as mentioned, to help the guardsmen aim the weapons better. Space marine aiming is taken care of by all of their fancy technology.

There is no fluff reason. The real answer comes from anyone who tried to put together the original multipiece metal/plastic MK7 marines. The bolter came with a stock but it really just got in the way while you were posing the mini. The shoulder pad and the stock never aligned right. I had to cut most of mine off.

Some of the old RT era metal guard and marines had stocks, but once they switched to plastic the tech at the time just made the stocks a problem for figure assembly. Even now most of the guard with stocks have the weapon molded into the arm.

 Vaerros wrote:
Space marines having targeting software in their helmets" is not a sufficient counter-point. What of the [visorless] scout marine or the apparently numerous helmetless space marines? Or any other Imperial not equipped with such a helmet?

They can still look down the gunsights. And with the excellent hand eye coordination of a space marine, not to mention the possability of bionic implants, firing from the hip will not be as inaccurate as a normal human would be.

 Ailaros wrote:
Bolter rounds are recoilless.

Since when? The low velocity charge to send it out of the barrel will still produce recoil. Even if it didn't have a low velocity charge, the rocket firing off in the chamber, with the exhaust expelled from the front of the barrel, would still cause some recoil.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Bolter rounds are recoilless.

Since when? The low velocity charge to send it out of the barrel will still produce recoil. Even if it didn't have a low velocity charge, the rocket firing off in the chamber, with the exhaust expelled from the front of the barrel, would still cause some recoil.

It's still going to have recoil, but maybe not much. Look at the aa-12. Very light recoil and that is an automatic shotgun. Even recoilless rifles have recoil, its just been dampened.

 Makarov wrote:
This has been bugging the hell out of me. I mean why?

Power armour renders a stock irrelevant. Essentially, the suit grips the handle so strongly that the entire suit becomes a part of the weapon. Or the weapon becomes a part of the suit. The weapon doesn't need a stock for stability or control any more than a weapon mounted on a vehicle does.

It seems to me like the bolters, especially the more recent ones, (especially the Forgeworld ones) are designed to look more like submachine guns rather than assault rifles, but that's just the way that it looks to me. The range at which the Space Marines tend to conduct their operations, especially in the background material, supports that I think. It may be a supply-side issue as well. I could definitely see some high ranking Adeptus Mechanicus number cruncher deciding that the biological sensory upgrades, plus the targeting arrays in the Marine's helmet, plus the targeting systems built into the bolter itself are enough redundancies that the minor additional benefit of the stock can be "safely eliminated with no statistical impact on effectiveness." That pound or so of material, multiplied by all the thousands and thousands of bolters produced by the Imperium, probably saved the Adeptus Mechanicus a ridiculous amount of supplies. (He probably got a promotion.) It's the kind of decision that looks good on paper even if it isn't really good in the field. And if you want realism in your ludicrous space-fantasy, then it doesn't get more realistic than soldiers having to put up with bureacratic ignorance.

Andrew1975 wrote:It's still going to have recoil, but maybe not much. Look at the aa-12. Very light recoil and that is an automatic shotgun.

Ya. I actually like the AA-12 comparison a lot myself. That weapon shoots slugs very close in size to bolter rounds (and which can explode!) on full auto, and it even almost looks like a boltgun. And the kicker is, you can supposedly shoot it with one hand no probs, or even dual wield them, thanks to the long spring preventing the internals from being kicked back with full force. I'm sure by now most people have seen FPSrussia's video, but just in case, here it is again.
Just as an example of what today's technology can do already, mind you. With bolt ammunition having its own rocket motor, I imagine the first stage propellant would be even softer, simply as it's not required to deliver the projectile's full velocity and kinetic force, but just give it a "kickstart" (to negate those very issues the real-life gyrojets suffered from).

With boltguns, I would imagine that shooting them one-handed would require power armour or bionics (or an Astartes, or Straken ), though ... otherwise you'll just screw up your aim. Not even just because of the recoil, but because the weapon's point of balance is before the hand, and I believe its heavy weight would make it difficult to hold it steady. Pistols on the other hand would be easy, so no problem there. At least that's my interpretation based on what I read so far.

 Lynata wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:It's still going to have recoil, but maybe not much. Look at the aa-12. Very light recoil and that is an automatic shotgun.

Ya. I actually like the AA-12 comparison a lot myself. That weapon shoots slugs very close in size to bolter rounds (and which can explode!) on full auto, and it even almost looks like a boltgun. And the kicker is, you can supposedly shoot it with one hand no probs, or even dual wield them, thanks to the long spring preventing the internals from being kicked back with full force. I'm sure by now most people have seen FPSrussia's video, but just in case, here it is again.
Just as an example of what today's technology can do already, mind you. With bolt ammunition having its own rocket motor, I imagine the first stage propellant would be even softer, simply as it's not required to deliver the projectile's full velocity and kinetic force, but just give it a "kickstart" (to negate those very issues the real-life gyrojets suffered from).

With boltguns, I would imagine that shooting them one-handed would require power armour or bionics (or an Astartes, or Straken ), though ... otherwise you'll just screw up your aim. Not even just because of the recoil, but because the weapon's point of balance is before the hand, and I believe its heavy weight would make it difficult to hold it steady. Pistols on the other hand would be easy, so no problem there. At least that's my interpretation based on what I read so far.

OOF, Just googled FPSRUSSIA and it looks like one of their producers got murdered today.

Bolters are meant to be fired from the hip while swinging a giant chainsaw in your other hand. A stock would just make the weapon more cumbersome.

However, OP, 40k is what you make of it, and there is nothing stopping you from making your own medusa pattern bolter with a folding or telescoping stock for your own marines.

Bolt pistols, bolters and heavy bolters used to all use the same ammunition - I'm pretty sure this is no longer the case. I'd guess that a bolt pistol would actually have more recoil than a bolter, as it will have a higher initial propellant charge before a smaller rocket kicks in, so that it's reached full velocity at closer range.

As has already been stated, Bolters used to have stocks, but since they were awkward, they usually got cut off, the same with plasma guns my metal ones have stocks, but i cut them off, i'm not sure about the more recent plastics (if any).

On a more practical note. Space marines, and sisters of battle, who are the primary boltgun users, wear power armour, and i'm pretty certain the nature of the armour means a stock is unecessary from a recoil point of view.
From a targetting Point of view, Marine (and i'm guessing SoB as well) helmets have a HUD on them indicating where the weapon is pointed so the stock is not required for aiming. I'm pretty sure the marine could stick his hand round a corner, and shoot stuff and simply aim via his HUD.

For the non marine, and non armoured troops, which i would guess should include scouts, i'm guessing a stock would be a practical addition since normal people don't have super duper armour, and are weaklings in comparison. plus bolguns actually look cool as they are.

There are a few marine weapons that it appears do have stocks, but they are of the heavy variety (plasma cannons and lascannons) and lascannons and Missile launchers both have targetting sights. i doubt they are strictly necessary for marines, but they look cool, and cool > all else

Graphite wrote:
Bolt pistols, bolters and heavy bolters used to all use the same ammunition - I'm pretty sure this is no longer the case. I'd guess that a bolt pistol would actually have more recoil than a bolter, as it will have a higher initial propellant charge before a smaller rocket kicks in, so that it's reached full velocity at closer range.

Bolters and Bolt Pistols still use the same ammo. Heavy Bolters never used the same ammo.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Bolters are built to be fired from the Hip while charging into the enemy. The Space Marine puts one shoulder forward to absorb shots while holding the bolter at their side to soften the enemy. Once he's close enough, out comes the combat knife or chainsword, and suddenly you've got a whole new problem.

Except the marine specifically cannot shoot from the hip as charging into the enemy...

-Matt

I like how someone will ask a question, 4 people will answer it, and than someone ask the same question...

Welcome to internet forums.

Suddenly something fits together... I do understand now. The physical and mechanical principles concerning stocks on firearms are lost knowledge. They were archived somewhere between "the art of welding" and "the connection between lifting force and propulsion on concave airfoils". This explains why my little plastic men have so enormous difficulties to even kill unprotected guardsmen standing still in formation before them, and why it is impossible to even hit something more than about 50m away with a bolter... No really, makes totally sense now.

By the way, the old rogue trader guardsmens' laser rifles didn't have stocks nor magazines.

I thought bolter ammo was mini rockets, so since the bullets generate their own thrust, they just get popped out like a nerf and then speed up REALLY FAST

That would explain it, yep

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
I thought bolter ammo was mini rockets, so since the bullets generate their own thrust, they just get popped out like a nerf and then speed up REALLY FAST

That would explain it, yep

Now I'm imagining bolters making Nerf gun noises.

"Brothers! Bring down these foul traitors!" *Foont! Foont! Foont! Foont!*

Bolter rounds have a conventional propellant to push them out the barrel, and a rocket motor to propel them beyond that.

The technology doesn't make 100% sense. It's essentially gyrojet style technology with a two stage propellant. Probably a low recoil, (relatively) low muzzle velocity, then a rapid acceleration with the rocket. Seems like it would have trouble penetrating at point blank range if it worked that way.

I try not to think too much about it, lol. It's Fantastech. It works because it does.

On a similar note, a lot of the new GW Autoguns have no stocks either. Cultists definitely do not have bionics and super human strength/Iron grip to mitigate recoil the way SM do.

 btr75 wrote:
On a similar note, a lot of the new GW Autoguns have no stocks either. Cultists definitely do not have bionics and super human strength/Iron grip to mitigate recoil the way SM do.

I've been assured with total certainty that:

a) Chaos cults are not reknowned for concerning themselves with practical issues when working to further the goals of the Dark Gods
b) Chaos Gods have absolutely no concern about potential work injuries their followers may sustain while furthering their cause
c) Chaos cultists' career opportunities are very limited in the long run. Their retirement plan isn't much better, either...

Basically, what I'm saying is that the Cultists are too insane / blood crazed to care about recoil or aiming, and whatever powers they serve use them as fodder, so they wouldn't bother giving them too much training. Particularly in the 'safe operation of firearms' department.

 Lupe wrote:

 btr75 wrote:
On a similar note, a lot of the new GW Autoguns have no stocks either. Cultists definitely do not have bionics and super human strength/Iron grip to mitigate recoil the way SM do.

I've been assured with total certainty that:

a) Chaos cults are not reknowned for concerning themselves with practical issues when working to further the goals of the Dark Gods
b) Chaos Gods have absolutely no concern about potential work injuries their followers may sustain while furthering their cause
c) Chaos cultists' career opportunities are very limited in the long run. Their retirement plan isn't much better, either...

Basically, what I'm saying is that the Cultists are too insane / blood crazed to care about recoil or aiming, and whatever powers they serve use them as fodder, so they wouldn't bother giving them too much training. Particularly in the 'safe operation of firearms' department.

Still, who would even manufacture an assault rifle without a stock? Stop looking for fluff answers, this is a simple issue of the details being to fiddly, no stock is much easier to work with on the miniatures.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

Still, who would even manufacture an assault rifle without a stock? Stop looking for fluff answers, this is a simple issue of the details being to fiddly, no stock is much easier to work with on the miniatures.

Cannibalized vehicle-mounted weapons? Crew-served autocannons with all the redundant parts (bipod, tripod, crate magazines etc) chopped off for better portability? Who knows... like I said, Chaos cults are a lot of things, but not exactly logical or picky with equipment selection.

I mean, I get that Rule of Cool, casting restrictions and ease of modeling are probably the best explanation, but nonetheless, I like how the stockless autocannons fit in with the background of chaos cults.

They could very well have cut them off to make the weapon shorter?

Trust me. You see enough rag tag insurgent style forces and you realize that "proper technique" is a foreign concept to a lot of them.

Not having a stock also makes the rifles easier to conceal under their rags before it's time to go do whatvere their cult is doing, which is useful in a hive city or whatever.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
They could very well have cut them off to make the weapon shorter?

Trust me. You see enough rag tag insurgent style forces and you realize that "proper technique" is a foreign concept to a lot of them.

When I see 13year olds fighting in the Congo with AKs, you know what I see? Rifle stocks. Even with all the explanations and cannibalized weapons you might see a guy or two without stocks, not all.