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 somecallmeJack wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Commissars seem to be able to use bolt pistols just fine ("promotions!"), and bolt pistols use the same ammo as bolters do.

You get astartes size bolt weapons and human sized bolt weapons. They have different calibres.

No, the caliber is the same but the gun itself will have been made to fit a normal humans hands. Astartes hands are bigger than a normal humans after all.

The various expanded versions of the fluff have supported the idea of boltguns of varying calibers.

Space Marines don't just have bigger hands, they're also ridiculously bigger than normal humans. The tabletop models don't reflect this because 40K's scale is all jacked up. Space Marines and vehicles too small, or regular humans and most of the aliens too big. Either one you choose to believe. This is 40K. Even though they both are essentially the same idea, I know if I only state one, some screwball will have to point out that "it's the other way around".

They still have the same stats in 40K because it's a game decided in "sixths". You can't have a Strength 3.5 bolter, so to be more powerful than a lasgun, they're all S4.

There are different calibers of boltguns. In the Helsreach book, when the BTs reach the cathedral i think, It mentions that sisters of battle and other imperial forces use a smaller caliber than the Astarte's. I think it's because sisters of battle armour is more like advanced plate armour as it doesn't directly interface with the body through the black carapace so cannot compensate for recoil like astartes power armour patterns can.

 Melissia wrote:
I think some boltguns would have stocks, depending on the tastes of the user. But that's just me.

A guardsman using a boltgun (lucky him!) would likely want a stock; a sister of battle would likely have little need.

I'm pretty sure some of the Sisters of Battles showings have them using bolters with stocks (either the Calpurnia novels, Ben Counter's ventures into SoB territory, or Swallow's novels.)

uk_crow wrote:There are different calibers of boltguns. In the Helsreach book, [...]

And this is where we delve into the realm of different authors having their own, individual opinions on how stuff in their interpretation of the setting is supposed to work.

Games Workshop, however, has been fairly adamant about the issue. Bolters are bolters, and there is no mechanical difference between "human" or "Astartes" models as it has been pushed into certain outsourced products. Go check the Inquisitor RPG's armoury - everyone gets the same stuff. As it should be. For when recoil is not an issue, why exactly should there be "different calibers"? Some sort of need to give Space Marines "+1 stuff" because otherwise they'd not be as cool? That's personal preference, and whilst it is certainly a valid opinion to have, it remains a deviation from the original studio material.

"The Sisters of Battle are exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter."
- 3E C:WH

The various licensed products are split on the issue - unsurprisingly, for there are many different writers all with their own ideas. For each novel where you have different calibers (or other disparities), you probably have another one where it's the same. Off the top of my head I recall Eisenhorn working with a bolt pistol he got from a Deathwatch Librarian, and just a few days ago, someone mentioned the Blood Ravens in DoW2 having a bolt pistol in their armoury that was once owned by an Inquisitor.

Bottom line: It all depends on the material you want to roll with. I'll continue to go with GW.

RPG's don't have stocks. Why should bolters?

ENOZONE wrote:RPG's don't have stocks. Why should bolters?

Granted, most RPGs have lower recoil because the missile gradually picks up speed as its rocket motor burns, and (or so I assume) leave the muzzle at a velocity below their maximum speed - which makes it easier for the operator to compensate with his physical strength and muscle reflex. This is opposite to a traditional gun's firing mechanism where the projectile is quickly propelled to high speed by a sort of "mini explosion" in the barrel as the powder charge is ignited.

Most fluff in 40k these days, including GW's own material, describe bolters as working on a two stage firing principle, with a conventional charge pushing the bolt out of the barrel before the rocket motor kicks in. This means that the operator may have to endure recoil more similar to a traditional gun.
One RPG (an exception from the rule, from what I understand) actually works exactly like that:
"The booster consists of a "small strip powder charge" that serves to propel the grenade out of the launcher; the sustainer motor then ignites and propels the grenade for the next few seconds, giving it a top speed of 294 meters per second."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7#Propulsion_system

In any case, the proponents of heavy recoil for bolt weapons usually dismiss the possibility of integrated recoil dampening technology (such as the "blast compensator" in the 3E bolter cross-section), the heavy weight of these weapons (various rulebooks), and that the bolt leaves the gun at "low velocity" (2E Wargear book).

Stocks would still be useful for sustained fire. An RPG you only discharge once, so it doesn't matter how your accuracy for subsequent shots would be affected by the moving weapon, since you're not going to take any. Boltguns, on the other hand, are capable of autofire, where the user could potentially affected even by small recoil. Unless he is wearing power armour, I guess. Other people could always just use single shots, or simply accept the reduction in accuracy in favour of the weapon's destructive capabilities in close quarters combat.

Then I guess we must refer to the rules codex's and lore to answer this question.

True Grit gives an idea that Bolters do have exceptional recoil, but while wielded in a two handed manner (or one handed manner when you're a plague marine) by an 8 foot walking tank, the giant's armor and extreme muscle mass "locks in" the weapon and can be fired from the hip with ease. I think the best example isn't imagining a person, but rather a tank - the turret is attacked and supported by a chasis, but to be mounted directly to the hull removes valuable maneuverability.

To further support this hypothesis, SM's are also prized for their ability in boarding actions and close quarters fighting. They do not generally use Bolters for long range engagements and those that do have stocks. I therefore conclude that Bolters are really supersized SMG's that fire RPG's.

I would say that True Grit is rather a representation of the massive weight that bolt weapons have - for unlike the recoil (which is never even mentioned once), this trait has been mentioned in the fluff again and again. A boltgun is even heavier, and its design means the point of balance will be even further to the front and away from the hand that holds the weapon. It sure as hell would not be easy to aim with such a massive slab of metal in your hand, and even harder to keep the barrel aimed once you started shooting!
The wording of the rule on page 76 of the rulebook also mentions that True Grit is a matter of training, not mentioning raw physical strength with a single word.

There have also been a number of non-Marine miniatures who use boltguns single-handedly. And again, bolt pistols and boltguns fire the same rounds, so it has to be the design of the weapon that makes it difficult to use with one hand, not the projectile it launches.

Lastly, in GW's version of the setting, Marines are "only" 7 feet. Nitpicking, I know, but I'm trying to stem the tide here.

"True Grit"

...The Primarch of the Death Guard, Mortarion, trained his warriors to fight on foot relying on their bolters to cut down their enemies. Loyal to his teachings down the centuries Plague Marines have learn to use their bolters in close combat, a feat aided by their ability to absorb the ferocious recoil with their diseased bulk...

- Page 51 of 3rd ed. CSM Codex

The point of such a weighty gun is refuted by normal men (of honorable standing) still being able to operate them at the same standards as SM's and SoB without any augmentation and also without stocks. Again, the concept of a powerful SMG continues to hold true even while in the hands of non marines - they are usually gifted to skilled warriors of the front lines - not snipers or sharpshooters.

 Lynata wrote:
I would say that True Grit is rather a representation of the massive weight that bolt weapons have - for unlike the recoil (which is never even mentioned once), this trait has been mentioned in the fluff again and again. A boltgun is even heavier, and its design means the point of balance will be even further to the front and away from the hand that holds the weapon. It sure as hell would not be easy to aim with such a massive slab of metal in your hand, and even harder to keep the barrel aimed once you started shooting!
The wording of the rule on page 76 of the rulebook also mentions that True Grit is a matter of training, not mentioning raw physical strength with a single word.

There have also been a number of non-Marine miniatures who use boltguns single-handedly. And again, bolt pistols and boltguns fire the same rounds, so it has to be the design of the weapon that makes it difficult to use with one hand, not the projectile it launches.

Lastly, in GW's version of the setting, Marines are "only" 7 feet. Nitpicking, I know, but I'm trying to stem the tide here.

For some reason I always thought bolt pistols were lower caliber and that humans used the same bolters as space marines but they can only fire it in semi-auto and maybe burst mode.

ENOZONE wrote:...The Primarch of the Death Guard, Mortarion, trained his warriors to fight on foot relying on their bolters to cut down their enemies. Loyal to his teachings down the centuries Plague Marines have learn to use their bolters in close combat, a feat aided by their ability to absorb the ferocious recoil with their diseased bulk...

That is the exact wording...? Huh, perplexing. Both because I've never seen any GW product mention a high recoil anywhere else (and I've read various books from all editions), as well as this wording suggesting that boltguns should have a higher recoil than bolt pistols, whereas the opposite should be true.

I'm at a loss.

Cheesecat wrote:For some reason I always thought bolt pistols were lower caliber and that humans used the same bolters as space marines but they can only fire it in semi-auto and maybe burst mode.

I cannot find a proper source regarding the caliber (at least not a GW one; I know FFG's books mentioned it but I prefer citing studio material due to the potential differences in setting interpretation) right now, although the Inquisitor RPG and Necromunda rulesets grant both the bolt pistol as well as the boltgun equal damage, their only differences being range and ammunition capacity. For the tabletop rules it is similar, but of course the numbers there are heavily abstracted.

Regarding the firing mode, there seems to be no difference at least in GW's RPGs. You even have "normal" people run around using heavy bolters, and those have an even larger caliber ... although their bulk is stressed as a notable trait, with people in the setting even referring to them as "back breakers".

Anyone remember that cityfight pic with the guardsmen with the bolter ( that has a stock)

Even if there was a stock, try hitting anything with those crappy sights.

The bit above.the barrel is a cam that the marine can look down with his helm cam

 Formosa wrote:
The bit above.the barrel is a cam that the marine can look down with his helm cam

Why certainly. But if you're not a marine, I don't think a stock would be -much- help.

Formosa wrote:Anyone remember that cityfight pic with the guardsmen with the bolter ( that has a stock)

I do!

ChaoticBob wrote:Even if there was a stock, try hitting anything with those crappy sights.

For what it's worth, I always interpreted the ironsight to just be a place where the optics gear (laser sight and/or autosense-link) is put. That it's still shaped like an oldskool ironsight is simply human nostalgia.



Also, there could well be bolter versions that have at least a small notch, or where the iron sight is so thin that you can aim it properly. But in the end, there is also the fact that bolt weapons are intended as short range shock assault weapons - by design, you're not intended to "snipe" with 'em, but rather blast away foes on a distance where the lack of ironsights might be of no real concern; where you just loosely point in the direction of people and still hit them... for anything else, there's the M.40 Targeter scope as an optional upgrade.

 somecallmeJack wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Commissars seem to be able to use bolt pistols just fine ("promotions!"), and bolt pistols use the same ammo as bolters do.

You get astartes size bolt weapons and human sized bolt weapons. They have different calibres.

No, they don't. They use the same ammo.

Astartes are not really that much larger than a human according to studio lore.

This is the only thing that makes "durr marines infiltrating human society!" story even remotely make sense, because if they WERE huge, they quite simply could not do so reliably.

Wait, really?

A walking tank vs a normal human being isn't "that much bigger?"

And where is this argument of Astartes "infiltrating" society? Astartes have always been above society while in their brotherhood. When exiled from it, they don't infiltrate society, they tend to take one over for their new masters....

Why must you derail this thread Melissa? Why? Will you not add anything beyond your SM angst? What of the SoB - why would they expertly use bolters - without a stock?

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
When you have exploding bullets, you don't need to look down sights.

The GMG (Grenade Machine Gun) says otherwise.

Lynata wrote:. For when recoil is not an issue, why exactly should there be "different calibers"?

Because there can be?

Space Marines are huge, and unencumbered by large or heavy ammunition and weapons. NATO armies moved (in a large part) to the 5.56mm because a trooper could carry significantly more ammunition for the same weight. Not because 5.56mm was superior to the old 7.62mm round they used as a standard before. A Space Marine could carry a larger caliber weapon and still carry far more ammunition than regular human troops.

It isn't really anything about Space Marines having to be +1. They already are +1, by design, so they might as well be equipped to take advantage of that. It just makes sense. And it makes sense that regular humans would want to take advantage of bolter technology, even if it means they cannot employ the same weaponry as a Marine.

 ENOZONE wrote:
Wait, really?

A walking tank vs a normal human being isn't "that much bigger?"

A Marine is only 7 foot tall. I know people almost that tall. A Marine is wider than a human by a wide margin, but not taller.

 ENOZONE wrote:
And where is this argument of Astartes "infiltrating" society? Astartes have always been above society while in their brotherhood. When exiled from it, they don't infiltrate society, they tend to take one over for their new masters....

Never heard of the Alpha Legion?

 ENOZONE wrote:
Why must you derail this thread Melissa? Why? Will you not add anything beyond your SM angst? What of the SoB - why would they expertly use bolters - without a stock?

Because Sisters have power armour more technologically advanced (in certain areas) than Astartes?

 ENOZONE wrote:
A walking tank vs a normal human being isn't "that much bigger?"

Space Marines are seven feet tall on average. Human beings are six feet tall on average.

This is not exactly a towering thing. Certain human beings are actually BIGGER than Space Marines, according to GW's lore. Power armor does not count, because any human can also wear powered armor.

Boltguns were designed before Marines existed. They were made for human beings, not Marines.

 ENOZONE wrote:
And where is this argument of Astartes "infiltrating" society?

Night Lords, Alpha Legion, etc.

Stay on topic, Enozone.

 Lynata wrote:
Don't the Primarchs in the HH series also change their hair colour all the time or something?

No, just Sanguinius.

And no, certain humans are taller than Marines. No human that doesn't resemble a Great Unclean One is bigger than a Marine.

Still Standing wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
When you have exploding bullets, you don't need to look down sights.

The GMG (Grenade Machine Gun) says otherwise.

But apparently doesn't need a stock... (You'll say mounted on a tank - I say refer to my previous argument)

Melissia wrote:

 ENOZONE wrote:
A walking tank vs a normal human being isn't "that much bigger?"

Space Marines are seven feet tall on average. Human beings are six feet tall on average.

This is not exactly a towering thing. Certain human beings are actually BIGGER than Space Marines, according to GW's lore. Power armor does not count, because any human can also wear powered armor.

 ENOZONE wrote:
And where is this argument of Astartes "infiltrating" society?

Night Lords, Alpha Legion, etc.

Stay on topic, Enozone.

Melissa you still haven't answered the topic's question, let alone refute any of my claims.So I'll ask you again, why do bolters not need stocks?

 Still Standing wrote:

 ENOZONE wrote:
Wait, really?

A walking tank vs a normal human being isn't "that much bigger?"

A Marine is only 7 foot tall. I know people almost that tall. A Marine is wider than a human by a wide margin, but not taller.

People really underestimate the sheer size and bulk of Space Marines.

Neil Fingleton, a British born basketball player, was approximately 7.5 feet tall, which is more or less the accepted height of Space Marines (some people like to claim 7', but the image of the 7' tall Marine, the Marine is hunched, and not standing up straight. It's somewhat irrelevant anyway). He weighed 370 pounds.

370 pounds. Here is a picture of Neil.


Now imagine a Space Marine who is that tall, but half again (at least) as thick, with extra and redundant organs (water weight is heavy), thicker more dense bones (necessary to support just how heavy he is going to be without degenerative effects over the lifespan. Many of the world's tallest people were crippled since their bones and ligaments couldn't bear the strain. Space Marines would have to be designed to counteract this), significantly more bones because of the dense overlapping ribcage, denser ligaments and musculature, and an implanted subdermal carapace.

They're going to weigh seven hundred pounds or more, easy. And that's before he puts on power armor, and hefts a four and a half foot long shoulder fired cannon, plus ammunition and grenades. lol. A Space Marine isn't a tall dude like your friends.

Yeah, they're fething huge, on a scale where "bigger" doesn't even begin to cover it, lol.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:A Space Marine could carry a larger caliber weapon and still carry far more ammunition than regular human troops.

Whilst that is a valid argument, a lesser caliber would also mean a decrease in explosive payload and/or rocket fuel. And once you've started to go down that road and compromise, you could just as well pick up one of the many other guns that have comparable power but are both cheaper and more reliable. Like autoguns with manstopper rounds. The difference is not huge enough to warrant closing the gap with some sort of hybrid. Yes, maybe the ordinary guy's magazine will only hold 20 instead of 30 rounds, but at least those shots will count just as much as if a Marine had fired them. The strength of bolt weapons lies not in a ridiculously high rate of fire (some autoguns) or an abundant ammo supply (lasguns), but rather in the power that every single round holds.

Unless we're talking about heavy bolters ... but even those are lugged around by Guardsmen as well as some hive gangers. But don't ask me how much ammo the latter have available, lacking a dedicated loader who carries it.

At the end of the day, it's what GW has laid down. However, there are some licensed products who prefer to deviate from this, so people are free to pick their favourite and subjectively more realistic approach.

Ammunition supply is always a factor, lol.


Besides, you're looking at it in reverse. The "persons sized" bolter is the upgrade from the lasgun and autogun. The Marine sized bolter is the upgrade from that.

Besides, as you've always said, there's no canon.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
They're going to weigh seven hundred pounds or more, easy.

The baseline weight for a Space Marine in Deathwatch just happens to be 700 pounds, for many of the reasons you've brought up.

Ammunition is a factor, but damage potential is as well. As someone else already mentioned in this thread, the owners of bolt weaponry tend to operate in roles where they would not (or rather: should not) need many reloads. This is true for Space Marines hot-dropping into an enemy base, to Commissars executing Guardsmen, all the way to some hive ganger robbing a store. These people just aren't expected to discharge their weapon a thousand times during a single battle - if they would have to, something must have gone wrong and they were pushed into a role different than the one they intended to fill, such as Space Marines fighting several days of trench fighting. Which I recall happened in a short story, but in the case of Astartes I would assume that supply drops are standard procedure.

Thinking about it, using the same caliber would even allow Space Marines to tap Imperial Guard armouries to rearm, which would turn your argument regarding ammunition supply being a concern into favouring compatible caliber instead of opposing it.

If all bolt weapon operators would need as much ammunition as possible, then even Space Marines would run around with lasguns.

Spot on about the canon, though. It's what I meant with the last sentence in my previous post.