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As the title asks... which is your preferred doctrine for veterans, or none at all.

I like forward sentries on Harker squads, and demolitions on melta vets.

I tend only to add them as an after thought. If I don't have enough points for another squad or tank I'll start throwing them on a squad or two.
Demolitions is the only one I choose. Makes my melta vets into MC killers, and for one turn of shooting they have the potential to do more damage than my PG vets.

Demo used to be the best in 5th when you could get off a first turn charge. Nowadays, it is probably still okay, but not as awesome.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I like forward sentries on Harker squads, and demolitions on melta vets.

What he (?) said. The Sentries are a must for a Harker/sniper/HB antipersonnel squad, and having the option to swarm something with meltabombs gives meltavets a deterrent against Monstrous Creatures.

Demo vets with meltaguns are insane when you drop them out of a vendetta. That demo charge combined with the meltaguns will put a hurt on almost anything that crosses your path. Plus the cost of what you get in it is pretty good too. 1pt per model to give a guardsman meltabombs and 20 to give a guy the democharge.

Not to mention it discourages tank shocks and Mc's/dreadnaughts from charging you.

Camo cloaks and grenadiers have their place, but they feel far more situational than demolition vets do.

Demolitions: sometimes. It's expensive, but a demo charge adds a lot of firepower to a unit that often only gets 1-2 turns of effective shooting anyway.

Forward sentries: rarely. Guardsmen are squishy no matter what you give them, and I play mech vets so they're rarely in a position to abuse cover very effectively.

Grenadiers: never. Carapace armor is a waste, it just makes the unit more expensive without making it much more durable. Spend those points on buying more veteran squads to replace the dead ones.

Kind of depends on how you want to use them. Demo is good for airdropping, and camo cloaks are good for harker and for backfield plinkers.

Without knowing any more information, though, I'd say grenadiers is the best all-around doctrine. It works in close combat, unlike camo cloaks and almost always unlike the meltabombs for demolitions. They also take an army that is usually thin on scoring units and makes them beefier. They also allow your vets free range over the whole board, rather than huddling in cover. Plus, it even helps them survive vehicle explosions and gets hot rolls as well.

Put another way, you might get use out of camo cloaks or meltabombs, but you WILL get use out of carapace armor.

All of them are Highly Situational-

I tend to favor Demolitions charge's on triple melta vets in a Vendetta for Serious Tank busting balls out attacks - also works with an Aggresive Chimera Advance in conjunction with Plasma Guns or Meltas - Be Careful of the Scatter can pop your own ride if yoru not careful

camo Cloaks is good for just pissing around i've never found a real use for it , as Harker's special rule already conveys stealth to his squad which is the same thing camo cloaks do


Grenaders - Actually i like these - Carapace is expensive but i run a Very elite centered Mech guard and pack alot of plasma ( about 15-20 plasma shots a turn ) and having a little bit extra armor is excellant for gets hot but also the enevitable explosion as you will lose transports allowing for your men to bascially storm the enemy position though the thick of it -- dont wholy rely on it thought thats when you lose on it

< Taken by the void dragon >

Carapace is useful if you are running foot vets.

Wait.

Why would you ever do that? Hahaha. But really, overall, carapace is the most universal. It actually gives you an armor save to make against bolter weapons. Also, if you run Plasvets, it gives you a better change against Gets Hot! wounds. Not the best, but if you have points and can't find a use for the other doctrines, why not

< Taken by the void dragon >

I find its better to run them with nothing. If I did take one it would be Demolitions as the melta bombs and demo charge are fantastic but they do chew up the points.

Well, and you can do carapaced foot vets, you just need to take a bunch of them. 60 veterans with carapace backed up with 30 stormtroopers in carapace with a CCS with carapace gives you 95 guardsmen with a 4+ save. All bristling with special and heavy weapons, and occasionally deepstriking.

There's some real power in that.

 washout77 wrote:
if you run Plasvets, it gives you a better change against Gets Hot! wounds. Not the best, but if you have points and can't find a use for the other doctrines, why not

It's saved my vet squads several times from Gets Hot! rolls. Easily worth it's points on plasvets.

Well, and you can do carapaced foot vets, you just need to take a bunch of them. 60 veterans with carapace backed up with 30 stormtroopers in carapace with a CCS with carapace gives you 95 guardsmen with a 4+ save. All bristling with special and heavy weapons, and occasionally deepstriking.

I've played a similar list to what he's been describing since the last IG codex, and Carapace definitely extends the lifespan of foot vets. I don't usually use Demolitions because there are so many other options for AT, and anti 2+ in the guard codex already, and Camo cloaks because, well sometimes I actually have to MOVE my units, and there's frequently not enough cover to go from one objective to another without being in the open at some point. Carapace gives my troops the extra oomph to survive a round or two in the open against the more common anti-IG weapons.

I either run demolitions or grenadiers. I switch or mix and match based on the list. I love the look on power armor army players faces when they find out they don't ignore my normal human armor

I used grenadier vets in 5th a lot, my primary opponent was a standard mech guard player (mech plas/melta all with demolitions) vendettas and demolishers. The end of the game came down to whether he could assault me off an objective. His men charged and promptly got massacred becuase my guardsmen were almost twice as survivable.

Sentries, I use with a Harker, heavy bolter, sniper x3 squad.

Demolitions, Melta ves in chimera.

Grenadiers. With a plasma squad.

I will only usetese if I have extrapointslaying around.

 EmilCrane wrote:
His men charged and promptly got massacred becuase my guardsmen were almost twice as survivable.

Err, what? Might want to check your math there, 5+ to 4+ is a 50% increase in saves made, not double. It's certainly less of a defensive upgrade than the bonus attack for charging, so if your units were getting charged and surviving you either had superior numbers, or the dice loved you. Either way it had nothing to do with carapace armor.

 Peregrine wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
His men charged and promptly got massacred becuase my guardsmen were almost twice as survivable.

Err, what? Might want to check your math there, 5+ to 4+ is a 50% increase in saves made, not double. It's certainly less of a defensive upgrade than the bonus attack for charging, so if your units were getting charged and surviving you either had superior numbers, or the dice loved you. Either way it had nothing to do with carapace armor.

Figure of speech, I don't do math-hammer

Regardless of whether or not it allows you to win every time its an advantage in GEQ fights and makes you more resistant to small arms fire

It does for individual soldiers, but survivability isn't something guard do well to begin with. It's like polishing a turd instead of turning it into manure.

 Blaggard wrote:
It does for individual soldiers, but survivability isn't something guard do well to begin with. It's like polishing a turd instead of turning it into manure.

Very apt. If you consider taking 3 vets with carapase, that's only 10pts off another vet squad with melta guns. In the end the special weapons are all that matter, the lasguns are just ablative wounds.
Keeping a plasma gunner alive 50% more often just isn't worth the points, especially if they're inside a chimera.

Carapace is worth it vs bolter spam with foot guard, but not much else. It's almost always more effective to buy more units than buy carapace. I think in most games where you've maxed out on 6 units of vets and have enough points for carapace, you are pretty close to having enough points for a 2nd detachment.

HawaiiMatt wrote:It's almost always more effective to buy more units than buy carapace.

Well, yes and no.

Carapace gives you a force concentration boost over buying more stuff, and it's always going to be a lot cheaper. Plus, you don't have to deal with carrier costs of the more vets. Carapace also helps you against more than just bolters. It helps in close combat to prevent those last couple of bad guys left in the squad from wiping you in close combat. It helps you against vehicle explosions when your chimeras are killed, and against plasma burns. More importantly, they make the squad less beholden to cover, which means that they still retain some enhanced mobility even without the chimera.

Of course, more vets is usually the best answer, though, but not the only answer.

[quote=HawaiiMatt I think in most games where you've maxed out on 6 units of vets and have enough points for carapace, you are pretty close to having enough points for a 2nd detachment.

 Ailaros wrote:
It helps in close combat to prevent those last couple of bad guys left in the squad from wiping you in close combat.

This is a bad thing. Once you get charged you almost always want to die asap so you can get back to shooting. A veteran squad isn't going to survive two rounds of combat and tie up the unit in your opponent's turn, so the worst possible outcome is they get lucky, survive the first round, and leave the unit locked in combat during your turn.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Furthermore, if it's the end of the game, and you're running low on scoring units, whether the shattered remnants of that boyz mob wipes you out in close combat or not can win or lose you the game.