Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

HI

I just finished reading the outcast dead and in it it mentions that just like the thunder warriors the SM and Primarchs were to be thrown away just like the thunder warriors, once their use is completed.

Ie conquoring the galaxy and killing all xenos and those who worshiped gods.

Could this be the reason why the emperor with his perfection and genius, made the the Primarchs and SM with genetic flaws that lead to mutation ??

What do you guys think? Im not sure myself - I do know that the primarchs were meant to be his generals and that once we got the webway going he would get aurelian to start up the god-emperor worship so he could become a god to counter chaos

Thoughts??

I am pretty sure he meant to disgaurd them when he was done , yes. That was his MO.

I've not read any of the Black Library novels, but the idea that the Space Marines were supposed to be temporal isn't that new. And I suppose it is possible that the Emperor may have regarded them as a simple tool for a specific job (Great Crusade), to be discarded once it is done.

It depends on how the Emperor felt about humanity, I think. Given that he had the opportunity to make the Astartes so much superior to ordinary people, there might have been a risk that they would start to dominate and then displace them - like an artificial step of evolution where the superior species supersedes the lesser. One of the reasons for why I think he made them sterile - though that detail is not covered in any way anywhere but merely personal opinion and preference, thus not warranting any discussion.

Thinking about it, maybe some Space Marines gained a measure of insight into the Emperor's plans for them, thus adding another reason for the Horus Heresy ...

He definitely had plans for Magnus -- he wanted to put him on the Golden Throne ... and I don't mean, make him the new Emperor.

 Manchu wrote:
He definitely had plans for Magnus -- he wanted to put him on the Golden Throne ... and I don't mean, make him the new Emperor.

The corpse on the golden throne was the Emperor in the current timeline. Chaos just showed it to Magnus with the wrong caption under it. Surprise Daemons lie.

The Primarchs were not going to get tossed after the Great Crusade. The legions maybe... Probably.

However the Primarch had estates built inside the Imperial Palace for after the Crusade. As seen in Deliverance Lost. The important thing to note is that there are 20 of them not 18 (2 gone) and not 9 (9 went to Chaos). Which shows that the Big E had a place in his home for his sons.

Horus had his marines expand their minds into other such things other than war so the wouldn't become obselete and discarded. A good example is Loken talking with that iterater or how ever you say it, from the first three HH novels anyway.

So if the Emperor' right hand man was preparing his men for peace maybe it was done with a nod from the big E. But then again he didn't tell them everything and could of lied to Horus about what was to happen to them.

I sort of assume Empy made the Thunder Warriors first to get control over Terra and it's surrounding, then the Space Marines was phase two of his plan which was to unite all humanity. Then the final phase in his plans seem to have been the Custodians. Harder to produce but far stabler than the Space Marines. So yeah Empy planned to get rid of the Space Marines, and phase them out like he did with the Thunder Warriors for something better and more stable. The Horus Heresy seem to have happened before he could get to that third step.

There was a residential area customized for all 20 Primarchs in the Imperial Palace, so even Magnus was not meant to permanently stay on the Golden Throne, as the technology would have been streamlined and improved eventually to not need a psyker to continually keep the Imperial Webway functioning. And pre-Heresy Horus mentioned the Legiones Astartes were meant to be re-integrated into normal society after the Great Crusade was over. So yes, they would be discarded, but not killed. The Emperor apparently had further plans for the Primarchs that apparently involved them eventually going into seclusion with him within the Imperial Palace.

The house can just as well have been a prison, where Empy just used them for their strengths. Some he would likely put into comas, like Magnus and place him on the Golden Throne. Though I wouldn't be surprised if he used Mortarion in the same fashion once in a while to recharge Magnus. To be honest Empy made three versions of the ultimate warrior, each one was better than the last. The Space Marines were imperfect, but before the plan was set into motion the HH happened.

I do not think so. AFAIK, the Emperor was ultimately going to go into seclusion himself once the plan was complete; the Emperor would simply be the shadow ruler of the Imperium - pretty much the same as the 41st Millennium except he wouldn't be a god - while the Council of Terra governed the Imperium. I mean, we do know the Emperor wanted normal Humans to be the ultimate governors of his empire. The Emperor and his Primarchs would just go into seclusion until they and the Legiones Astartes would be needed again (the existing ones would be re-integrated back into society). As for Magnus, the idea the Golden Throne would not be improved and streamlined to allow the Imperial Webway to function without someone on the master control at all times is ludicrous, given the Imperium's progressive nature at the time.

How do you reintegrate someone back in society when their blood is poison and they are spitting acid? It ain't like they can settle down and make families. Try kiss one and there went your tongue and teeth.

He probably didn't want to kill them outright. They weren't insane like the thunder warriors, he would probably disband the Legio Astartes and tell them that their long earned rest for peace came at last. Probably have rehabilitation programs to make them learn how to cope with daily living etc. But they would be reinstated if the imperium would need them (probably when the tyranids came)

Primarchs were his sons, he loved them all, and he knew that he should keep them because they would be quite useful, spend immortality with his relatives sounded nice.

How do you reintegrate someone back in society when their blood is poison and they are spitting acid? It ain't like they can settle down and make families. Try kiss one and there went your tongue and teeth.

Remember they are Warriors and Soldiers, they know what peace time means, it would be hard yes, but probably they could have it reversed seeing as how the emperor doesn't like permanent plans.

The Iterators would have to take care of that. Actually, the Salamanders Legion would be the easiest to re-integrate, seeing as they actually keep contact with their families and are part of normal society on their homeworld as artisans and metal-workers. They'd probably be the model for re-integration.

As for what need would bring out the Primarchs and the Emperor from seclusion, the Tyranids maybe? Necrons? Or the Imperium and Humanity falling into the same trap as the ancient Eldar?

It's hard to imagine the Great Crusade being permanently completed. Yeah, you could eliminate all xenos and retake every planet but that wouldn't mean the end of war. The Legions might have gotten smaller but it's hard to imagine doing away with them completely.

Maybe when they meant the Great Crusade ending, it meant the situation would be such that the regular Imperial Army and other non-Astartes forces could handle everything on their own without any further need for the Legiones Astartes.

It's grimdark, not rehabilitating criminals we are talking about. I mean this is basically emotionally stunted men who knows only war. They can't function in peace. Empy had a dark plan for them, and that's nothing mew, he betrayed the Thunder Warriors, so he could easily follow the same pattern with the Space Marines.

The Great Crusade-era Imperium was not grimdark. It was an age of progress, reclamation, hope, exploration and conquest, when the Imperium was young and vigorous, its claim to the galaxy virtually unchallenged. Unlike now, with the Imperium barely holding itself together and surrounded by countless enemies.

The "Final Solution" for the Space Marines has never been entirely clear.

Certainly, some of the Primarchs and Marines feared they would be obsolete and discarded after the Great Crusade was finished.

For some of the Primarchs (Angron, Curze, etc), that fear was probably legitimate. For others like Guilliman, he was already preparing for the next phase of the Imperium where the Space Marines would have to take on a role other than conquerors.

For that reason, I find it unlikely the Space Marines were going to be discarded. The Thunder Warriors were discarded because the Emperor had created something better. Unless the Emperor was working on Space Marines v. 2.0, there was little reason for the Space Marines to fear that they'd become obsolete and unneeded. It's a big galaxy that will always have people and things in it to kill.

Yeah, and the Crusade-era IOM planned to replace the Space Marines with something better, just like the Thunder Warriors were displaced. The Astartes would be thinned out, then in swift strikes eliminated by the Custodians. Then the IOM would defeat everything else, and you would have Peacehammer 40.000 with Custodians guarding the very peaceful galaxy while nothing but humans would be existing. Magnus would be powering the Webway, and humans would evolve into powerful controlled psykers.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Yeah, and the Crusade-era IOM planned to replace the Space Marines with something better, just like the Thunder Warriors were displaced. The Astartes would be thinned out, then in swift strikes eliminated by the Custodians. Then the IOM would defeat everything else, and you would have Peacehammer 40.000 with Custodians guarding the very peaceful galaxy while nothing but humans would be existing. Magnus would be powering the Webway, and humans would evolve into powerful controlled psykers.

And the chaos gods would die.

That doesn't make sense though. Custodians were never meant for mass-production. That's the whole point behind them.

 sumi808 wrote:
HI

I just finished reading the outcast dead and in it it mentions that just like the thunder warriors the SM and Primarchs were to be thrown away just like the thunder warriors, once their use is completed.

Ie conquoring the galaxy and killing all xenos and those who worshiped gods.

Could this be the reason why the emperor with his perfection and genius, made the the Primarchs and SM with genetic flaws that lead to mutation ??

What do you guys think? Im not sure myself - I do know that the primarchs were meant to be his generals and that once we got the webway going he would get aurelian to start up the god-emperor worship so he could become a god to counter chaos

Thoughts??

I see several flaws in your theory.

Genetic disability did not seem to be such a big problem for most of the space marines. There were only three legions with very unstable genes (Blood Angels, Space Wolfs and Thousand Sons.) Other Legions only suffered from minor changes in their genetic makeup, changes that would only surfaced much later on in the timeline and were of no real consequence for the respective chapters.

Then we have a bunch of SMs, whose geneseed after 10,000 years still remain pure and reproductive, these are the Ultramarines and Dark Angels (several CSMs, like Night Lords apparently also have stable geneseed.) So the Emperor wanting to knockoff the space marines via genetic mutations, seems pretty dang unlikely in IMO.

As I recall, the Luna Wolves and the Emperor's Children also had exceptional gene-seed quality.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
That doesn't make sense though. Custodians were never meant for mass-production. That's the whole point behind them.

I take them to be in the early stages, just like the first Space Marines. You don't jump straight into mass-production when it comes to such things.

Guilliman was already preparing the Ultramarines for life after war as planetary governors and rulers of Ultramar.

Salamanders, Iron Warriors, and Iron Hands could have easily retired as craftsmen and architects, Angel Exterminatus makes it very clear that this is something the Iron Warriors excel in (building things, not just destroying them, and not just bunkers and the like).

If the plan was, as someone suggested, for psykers to become more accepted in society, the Thousand Sons would have been a model for that, perhaps being sent to different planets to train the psyker population there.

The more civilized Legions would have surely found their way somehow, and the Wolves would always be kept on just in case. The only Legions I can see that would really have no place once the Crusade ended are the Night Lords and the World Eaters... but hey, the Wolves can take care of that problem.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
That doesn't make sense though. Custodians were never meant for mass-production. That's the whole point behind them.

I take them to be in the early stages, just like the first Space Marines. You don't jump straight into mass-production when it comes to such things.

Except that the space marines were mass-produced in their early stage. Who else did you think drove off those pesky Xenos from the solar system.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Guilliman was already preparing the Ultramarines for life after war as planetary governors and rulers of Ultramar.

Salamanders, Iron Warriors, and Iron Hands could have easily retired as craftsmen and architects, Angel Exterminatus makes it very clear that this is something the Iron Warriors excel in (building things, not just destroying them, and not just bunkers and the like).

If the plan was, as someone suggested, for psykers to become more accepted in society, the Thousand Sons would have been a model for that, perhaps being sent to different planets to train the psyker population there.

The more civilized Legions would have surely found their way somehow, and the Wolves would always be kept on just in case. The only Legions I can see that would really have no place once the Crusade ended are the Night Lords and the World Eaters... but hey, the Wolves can take care of that problem.

Night Legion = Police.
World Eaters = Entertainment.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
That doesn't make sense though. Custodians were never meant for mass-production. That's the whole point behind them.

I take them to be in the early stages, just like the first Space Marines. You don't jump straight into mass-production when it comes to such things.

Except that the space marines were mass-produced in their early stage. Who else did you think drove off those pesky Xenos from the solar system.

Which pesky Xenos?

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
That doesn't make sense though. Custodians were never meant for mass-production. That's the whole point behind them.

I take them to be in the early stages, just like the first Space Marines. You don't jump straight into mass-production when it comes to such things.

Except that the space marines were mass-produced in their early stage. Who else did you think drove off those pesky Xenos from the solar system.

Which pesky Xenos?

Whilst the idea of xeno presence inthe solar systen at that time is unlikely, the solar system still had to be united, due to the warring factions,
Each of the Emperors 'super-human' designs had a specific purpose:
Thunder warriors - shock troops, quickly produced to unite Terra.
Custodes - police, bodyguards. Due to their closeness to the Emperor and the skills required of them they are more labourous to produce.
Primarches - the Emperors generals, symbols of leadership to the population.
Space Marines - the power of the Great Crusade, mass produced in to the military equivelent of an avalanche of super human power.

It is likely that if the Great Crusade was successful, how the space marines were used would change but the Emperor would still have them. It is more likely that initiation would become slower and more selective than during the Great Crusade.

Mind you Blunty, the Imperial Fists were the bodyguards of Empy until after the Horus Heresy. Infact all the Legio Astartes had Custodians supervising them. That for me sounds more like Empy wanted to discard the Astartes because they were imperfect, whereas the Custodes were perfect warriors tougher and more stable than all but the toughest Astartes. Of course it's my interpretation, and I have already explained my vision of Peacehammer 40.000.