Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Number one reason why I believe the Space Marines were not meant to be discarded like the Thunder Warriors: the Primarchs.

TH Sm where a back up plan made from leftovers from when he lost his pet project. They were not his sons, the Primarchs were not his sons, they were tool he would have disgaurded when he was finished with them as he did with everything else. The man was no longer human and he was a donkey-cave like no other.

Then why did the Emperor hesitate in killing Horus? Every bit of fluff points to the fact that he didn't kill Horus because he was a sentimental old sod who didn't want to kill his favorite son.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Number one reason why I believe the Space Marines were not meant to be discarded like the Thunder Warriors: the Primarchs.

TH Sm where a back up plan made from leftovers from when he lost his pet project. They were not his sons, the Primarchs were not his sons, they were tool he would have disgaurded when he was finished with them as he did with everything else. The man was no longer human and he was a donkey-cave like no other.

Then why did the Emperor hesitate in killing Horus? Every bit of fluff points to the fact that he didn't kill Horus because he was a sentimental old sod who didn't want to kill his favorite son.

I agree, he may not have given a wet fart about the Astartes, but he certainly cared for the Primarchs. He may have created them in a lab but he still treated them as his sons, albeit he favored some (Horus, Magnus) more than others (Angron, Mortarion).

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Number one reason why I believe the Space Marines were not meant to be discarded like the Thunder Warriors: the Primarchs.

TH Sm where a back up plan made from leftovers from when he lost his pet project. They were not his sons, the Primarchs were not his sons, they were tool he would have disgaurded when he was finished with them as he did with everything else. The man was no longer human and he was a donkey-cave like no other.

Then why did the Emperor hesitate in killing Horus? Every bit of fluff points to the fact that he didn't kill Horus because he was a sentimental old sod who didn't want to kill his favorite son.

I agree, he may not have given a wet fart about the Astartes, but he certainly cared for the Primarchs. He may have created them in a lab but he still treated them as his sons, albeit he favored some (Horus, Magnus) more than others (Angron, Mortarion).

And the saddest part was that the ones he cared for the most and the greatest among them all were the ones who died or fell: Horus, Magnus, Perturabo, Sanguinius. Especially Sanguinius; IMHO, Sanguinius was basically Emperor 2.0. Even Horus admitted Sanguinius embodied everything the Emperor was while all the other Primarchs were just aspects of the man.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Then why did Empy create warriors better than the Space Marines, better at every level? Just to have them as his Praetorian Guards? That seems wasteful and shortsighted. Technological improvements would happen, so the Custodians would go from hard to produce to something quite easy to produce.

1) I believe when (old?) fluff says that Custodes were "prototype" version of Space Marines. And we even do not know were all the Custodes identical in their capabilities, it's very possible that until E's enthronement they were permanent W.I.P. with results gradually integrated in SM gene-seed (even M40s AM dabble with SM gene-seed!).

2) As for being "better at every level"...we know virtually nothing 'bout AC 'cept their fighting provess. SM has a number of improvements which have almost no value in battle, but critical in campaign.

So i think that Custodes begun as Thunder Warriors "guardian pattern" with deficiencies corrected/not added , but w/o new features. Can Custodes survive in vacuum, breathe water , actually digest almost anything, go in suspend animation, or obtain data by ingesting brains of others - we just don't know, but i think they can't as they don't need to.

That's the Thunder Warriors, and the Astartes can hardly be called stable people, they are a gang of manchildren running around with Big Freaking Guns.

That's a pretty simplistic and hilariously erroneous analysis of the Space Marines.

From what we know, they are bigger, stronger, faster, tougher and smarter than the average human being. Their endurance, both physical and mental, is consistently described as extraordinary.

But I imagine this has something to do with irrelevant European soccer hooligans, just like all the other stuff you say that makes no sense.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
That's the Thunder Warriors, and the Astartes can hardly be called stable people, they are a gang of manchildren running around with Big Freaking Guns.

Right. Ultramar is the best place to live in the whole damn galaxy. Other Ultramarine-descended Astartes realms have a similar eminence. That's around three-fifths of all Astartes already. And the Salamanders are artificers and metal-workers beyond peer. Not bad for madmen, wouldn't you say?

EDIT: Prior to the Burning of Prospero, thanks to Magnus and his Thousand Sons, Tizca was one of the greatest cities of Mankind.

Must be swell with the Tyranids coming and the info being 10.000 years old. Yeah MUST be a truly GREAT place.Only a heroic sacrifice from an Emperor battleship prevented the planets from being overrun.

And how does the monastic Space Marines find the place to administer a planet? I can see them being Planetary Governors and other people high-up, but if the whole administration is Space Marines then someone has hilariously misunderstood the purpose of them. I generally took it to be that people didn't dare to feth up with them nearby, so production increased and such in order to not disappoint the Space Marines. But sure I can go for this hilarious reality instead, the Space marines Legions disbanded mostly into administrators and scribes.

And your point is? None of what you say actually counters the argument that Ultramarine-governed worlds (over 500 for Ultramar alone) are the best places to live.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I generally took it to be that people didn't dare to feth up with them nearby, so production increased and such in order to not disappoint the Space Marines.

You're thinking of just the Night Lords. Most Legions usually left planets better than they found them (if they submitted willingly) or at least stable and functional if they resisted. They appointed governors and rulers from the submissive population and the societies grew to accept the Imperium. There was of course some fear of reprisal if they seceded or anything, but it's not like they wouldn't do anything without the threat os the Space Marines looming overhead.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Number one reason why I believe the Space Marines were not meant to be discarded like the Thunder Warriors: the Primarchs.

TH Sm where a back up plan made from leftovers from when he lost his pet project. They were not his sons, the Primarchs were not his sons, they were tool he would have disgaurded when he was finished with them as he did with everything else. The man was no longer human and he was a donkey-cave like no other.

Then why did the Emperor hesitate in killing Horus? Every bit of fluff points to the fact that he didn't kill Horus because he was a sentimental old sod who didn't want to kill his favorite son.

IMHO exception is only Horus - everybody else - paw...
I aways though Angel boy has a higher rating, but when he was maniacally scared of Emps stick, showed how easy he is disposable....

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I generally took it to be that people didn't dare to feth up with them nearby, so production increased and such in order to not disappoint the Space Marines.

You're thinking of just the Night Lords. Most Legions usually left planets better than they found them (if they submitted willingly) or at least stable and functional if they resisted. They appointed governors and rulers from the submissive population and the societies grew to accept the Imperium. There was of course some fear of reprisal if they seceded or anything, but it's not like they wouldn't do anything without the threat os the Space Marines looming overhead.

If you took it as that, then you are really reading what I'm writing harshly. It's basically a well-known fact that the Space Marines would react if things started to go awry, and that limits corruption and such Most people in the IOM are deadly scared of the Space Marines, so people would be terrified just about the thought of fething up infront of the nicer chapters, nevermind the more ruthless.

I think Space Marines understand administration.
Social interaction leaves a lot to be desired I'd imagine...
They are essentially children when it comes to that...

 purplefood wrote:
I think Space Marines understand administration.
Social interaction leaves a lot to be desired I'd imagine...
They are essentially children when it comes to that...

Some aren't
Wolves have the feasting, and party dancing down.
Salamanders talk well.
Ultramarines still have contact with their families.
Many chapters blend well with social interaction.

Having contact with your family for a Space Marine is less like coming home for x-mas and more like that your family will learn your eventual fate. Like in Army Wives, except they ain't married.

And oratory is a requirement to be an Imperial Fist f.ex. fail your grade at High Gothic and the Emperor take mercy upon you. I can guess something similar happens with the Ultras, but I doesn't really give a rat's ass about them. But that's beside the point as I actually support the notion that many Space Marines regards ordinary humans as just irresponsible children. Robute said so himself (he wanted to give a planet to each of his legionaries), if that ain't hubris, then I don't know what is.

Many chapters have a non-combat tradition of some sort-- wolf feasting, blood angels artwork, etc-- but none of them are really well-rounded enough to be suitable for a life of peace, even ignoring the fact that Marines are built specifically for war.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Number one reason why I believe the Space Marines were not meant to be discarded like the Thunder Warriors: the Primarchs.

TH Sm where a back up plan made from leftovers from when he lost his pet project. They were not his sons, the Primarchs were not his sons, they were tool he would have disgaurded when he was finished with them as he did with everything else. The man was no longer human and he was a donkey-cave like no other.

Then why did the Emperor hesitate in killing Horus? Every bit of fluff points to the fact that he didn't kill Horus because he was a sentimental old sod who didn't want to kill his favorite son.

Lore and Fluff are often one sided. Myself, I think he thought he still had some use for him. He may have played the dear old dad card, but he didn't seem to mind killing his children by the score when it was called for. He was a sociopath and every single thing he did was a step in a plan. People were things to him, things to use and disgaurd when no longer useful.

The primarchs were touched by chaos - some more than others - when they were scattered across the galaxy, and a number of them grew up with less than ideal role models and father figures. That wasn't part of the Emperor's plan, and as a result a number of legions - the World Eaters, the Night Lords, etc - had "issues" that weren't part of the original plan.

The World Eaters may very well have had a place in the post-war Imperium...but the things that Angron went through damaged him, and he, in return, damaged his own legion once he was put in control of them. I doubt that any of that was part of the Emperor's plan.

There may have been a very good plan for the Primarchs and their legions, but once they were scattered across the galaxy, the Emperor was trying his best to make the most of his flawed children.

At that point he was so zoned in one his "grand plan" he simply could not improvise. He thought he could make it work even as it fell apart around him. He was making the most of whatever tools he had in a vain try to make his plan work.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Mind you Blunty, the Imperial Fists were the bodyguards of Empy until after the Horus Heresy. Infact all the Legio Astartes had Custodians supervising them. That for me sounds more like Empy wanted to discard the Astartes because they were imperfect, whereas the Custodes were perfect warriors tougher and more stable than all but the toughest Astartes. Of course it's my interpretation, and I have already explained my vision of Peacehammer 40.000.

It was more of an honourary title given to the IF than their actual job, seeing as they still went on the Crusade.

The Custodes were perfect warriors, not soldiers. That is what has to be remembered, the Space Marines were created to be part of an army, to act as a unified wave, the Custodes were lone fighters skilled in personal combat, that is why they are the bodyguards and the eyes and ears for the Emperor.

Actually they constructed the Imperial Palace Blunty, so the guards of the Emperor was more than a mere title. They were mostly at Terra with Empy constructing the Imperial Palace, or at least Dorn were, while logic tells us that the main force also were there. But the construction of a fortress should be in their alley, despite me thinking actual humans did most of the work there.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Actually they constructed the Imperial Palace Blunty, so the guards of the Emperor was more than a mere title. They were mostly at Terra with Empy constructing the Imperial Palace, or at least Dorn were, while logic tells us that the main force also were there. But the construction of a fortress should be in their alley, despite me thinking actual humans did most of the work there.

Not true at all. They had nothing to do with the Imperial Palace until the Heresy actually began, at which point Dorn and most of the Fists were called back to fortify it and work its defences. During the Crusade they didn't have much of, if any, regular presence on Terra or at the side of the Emperor more than any other legion.

Beaviz, I think you're thinking about this too personally. Most humans think that Astartes are demigods, not xenos infiltrators. They are what every human should aspire to be; perfection in all things.

Plus they aren't manchildren, the writers are. Astartes are super intelligent warrior- diplomats that extend one hand in peace while having the other firmly on their bolter. They were likely intended to serve as stewards of the realms of their Primarchs. Maintaining peace from internal and external threats. That and there's no way the Emperor could have taken down every legion without massive destructive repercussions.

Actually I sort of thought this was all good fun, though I admit my standing in this is controversial with Empy discarding the Space Marines as well as the Thunder Warriors, but I generally adhere to the old adage, you can learn from history, or you can repeat it.

I also sort of assume that the Asartes sure being smarter than the average human only learned skills of military matter, but things can have been different during the Great Crusade. Then the whole setting were different and the IOM brimming with optimism. Anyway, that was actually a good argument Dendelion, which I at least shall take into consideration.

I view the OG IoM as a medieval monarchy. Emperor stands as king and Primarchs are his Counts, Dukes, etc and the Legions are knights beholden to their Primarchs whilst still maintaining comete fealty to the Emperor.

New IoM is a mess though, with Marines being used solely as warriors with no further use.

Yeah, what exactly was the Emperor going to use to destroy his Legions he'd created to be more powerful than anything else in the galaxy?


I think people have gotten too deeply entrenched in these shallow depictions of 40K's characters. Some of it isn't the fault of the writers. Much of 40K was determined about 20 years ago when you could name primarchs after gay British poets, or name them Angryon because they were angry all the time.

This is the main core issue the Horus Heresy faces, which is: This was not a story that was ever supposed to be told in this kind of detail.

The Horus Heresy was invented to explain why the original version of Epic 40K had two armies of Space Marines in the box. So you fought battles between two sides in a civil war. As the idea of the civil war was fleshed out, so were the Chaos Marines and the Traitor Chapters (yes, chapters. Legions came later) invented. As the 40K universe evolved towards 2nd Edition, the Legions were invented. The idea of the Primarchs evolved, and the Chapters became Legions, the Legions became 20 (18). The Chapters became the remnants of the Legions. The background of Rogue trader went away. The civil war setting of Epic Space Marine went from 40K to 30K. Most of its details went away. I can show you a picture from the rulebook of the Luna Wolves and Ultramarines fighting, lol.

But this kind of history was often just a few pages long. Most of these Primarchs existed as nothing more than names for about a decade. Leman Russ was the only one who ever got a model at 40K scale. The four main daemon primarchs (Angryon, Mortarion, Magnus, and Fulgrim) got models at the Epic Scale.



Seriously. Mortarion is a grim reaper looking dude. The primarch who was taken by the Chaos lord of death and decay turned into the classic image of the Grim Reaper. That's how serious this gak was. As in, not at all.

It was just a back story for a miniatures game. Angryon the angry daemon primarch of the Chaos God of being Angry and Violent.
Lionel Johnson of the Dark Angels.
Ferrus Manus of the Iron Hands.

Everything happening in this novel series is trying to patch this bs into an actual literary narrative. And obviously, to mixed results, because there's a very good reason why the old back stories were only a few pages long, lol. That's all they have the strength to support. The Emperor seems like he's a dickbag at some points, and an ageless hero at others because all the stuff he ever did was to support a framework ten pages long. Not 20 novels long, lol.

Cliff's notes? Stop trying to make definitive statements about these characters. Their actions don't always make sense and often conflict because they did all of these things 20 years ago when the setting wasn't so serious.

What an irony you are speaking about not taking things so seriously Veteran Sergeant, when you basically think anyone saying anything about the Ultramarines as a guy committing a personal attack on you. But then again I don't give a rat's ass about either them or you. Plus it's Angron, Angryon seems like a really childish way to spell that name.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Yeah, what exactly was the Emperor going to use to destroy his Legions he'd created to be more powerful than anything else in the galaxy?

Considering he had the raw psychic might to casually force an entire Legion (Word Bearers) to kneel, and then forced them all entirely to the ground, I think he could manage to take out single Legions if he so desired to.

Not that the Primarchs would just sort of sit there and watch the Emperor kill their sons, lol.

Who said anything was definitive? As far as I can tell most of this discussion is head-canon and everyones trying piece he choppy narrative together.

I still don't think he's powerful enough to take on eighteen full legions + Primarchs, and there is no way they would just sit there and allow themselves to be picked off legion by legion. Nah, there'd have to have been a failsafe implant and as far as we and the Astartes apothecaries know here isn't one. Right?

Off-topic, which 19th century heavyweight boxer is your picture Dandelion?