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Manchu wrote:Lexi cites p 139 of BGB6E. What does that say?

That's just the chart I posted.

Below the chart are just the descriptions of the Adeptus Astronomica, Custodes, Arbites and Administratum.

Funny line from the latter: "It is said by the soldiers of the Imperial Guard that for each single fighting man there are a dozen scribes and at least two minor officials toiling away, recording petty details that no one will use or consider."

Brother Captain Alexande wrote:We all know why , to counter the ORK snipers.

Gotta love that meme.

PS: I also agree about the "Beamter" comparison. In English, I suppose you would say "officer"?

So "loosely affiliated" is the Lexi editor's interpretation. In that case, I think Lynata's summary is the most reasonable: they are a part of Adeptus Terra, they are supposed to function in that chain of command, but in practice they sometimes do not and are rarely called out for it. This is consonant even with the most ancient tensions between the Astartes Legions and the Terran bureaucracy. As I recall, Horus himself chafed at the idea of some stylus-and vellum-pushers having any say over the Warmaster.

 Lynata wrote:
In English, I suppose you would say "officer"?

"Official," I'd think.

Or that.

I know that "officer" is mostly affiliated with police and military, but then again you also have stuff like "chief executive officers" or "section 16 officers" in companies.

 Manchu wrote:
So "loosely affiliated" is the Lexi editor's interpretation. In that case, I think Lynata's summary is the most reasonable: they are a part of Adeptus Terra, they are supposed to function in that chain of command, but in practice they sometimes do not and are rarely called out for it. This is consonant even with the most ancient tensions between the Astartes Legions and the Terran bureaucracy. As I recall, Horus himself chafed at the idea of some stylus-and vellum-pushers having any say over the Warmaster.

Yet, even Lord Militant Generals must "petition" Chapters for help. The common scenario we see of Space Marines being ordered around is by Inquisitors but the Inquisition isn't part of the Adeptus Terra. I can't think of an example of someone from the Adeptus Terra ordering a Chapter around.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yet, even Lord Militant Generals must "petition" Chapters for help.

Lords Militant General are not, according the chart on 139, in authority over Astartes chapters.

 Lynata wrote:
I know that "officer" is mostly affiliated with police and military, but then again you also have stuff like "chief executive officers" or "section 16 officers" in companies.

"Official" is used for government bureaucracy (but not every government employee, only middle- to higher-tear usually) and sports referees. It's not used regarding private companies.

Well perhaps there are people who actually work in that "Adeptus Terra" block on the flow chart and they have all kinds of titles, positions and ranks we haven't heard of.

I don't think Adeptus Terra is itself a discrete organization so much as the umbrella description for all the organizations that it contains. The Adeptus Astartes are responsible to the Administratum -- in what particular sense, it's hard to say. We do know that the SM must pay a regular tithe in gene-seed to somebody on Terra, probably the High Lords. I'm guessing it is the Master of the Administratum who handles that, through his multitudinous Terran priests.

The tithe goes to Mars afaik.

Back to who they answer too once again the fact the line is dotted is a big deal. It's not a de facto chart its a de jure one. Perhaps it's just the resposibility of The Adminstratum to simply manage all the Astartes affairs as they relate to The Imperium. Like the tithe.

Could be. Apparently, some Terran authority threatens violence when the Astartes resist making the gene-seed tithe. I wonder if there are any instances of this actually happening?

Wasn't that a major factor in The Badab War?

wd 252 article "codex astartes" sais "On Earth the Adeptus Terra created genetic repositories to produce and store Space Marine gene-seed." Later it states "By taking direct control of the genetic stocks, the Adepts on Earth could ultimately control the Space Marines. Now they alone had the power to destroy or create Space Marine armies at will." No mars, earth wanted this control directly. No wonder, the power of receiving the gene tithe and with that controlling new foundings is the only control they seem to have over the Astartes besides declaring a chapter traitor and requesting other astartes to do do the job of undoing them.

I don't know of any particular incident, but the possibility is well documented in GW's fluff:

"Every year each Space Marine chapter is required to surrender a portion of its gene-seed stocks to the Adeptus Mechanicus. Here it is held in trust and maintained on behalf of the High Lords of Terra, and, therefore, for the Emperor. There are only two locations in the Imperium considered secure enough to hold the gene-seed. These would represent the most priceless of targets should the Traitor Legions learn of them. There are very few obligations enforceable against the Adeptus Astartes, but this requirement is absolute. The reasons for this insistence upon regular examination and purify testing is rooted in the events of the Horus Heresy, and were borne out by the circumstances leading up to the Badab Uprising, one of the catalysts for which was Lufgt Huron's refusal to submit the Astral Claws' gene-seed for routine purity testing.

The gene-seed of a renegade chapter may remain pure, particularly if the cause of the rebellion is doctrinal. Where Chaos or alien influence lies at the heart of the matter then mutation may set in, debasing the chapter's gene pool more and more as time goes on. A chapter serving Chaos may begin to manifest the same mutations as the Traitor Legions: limbs become distended tentacle-like appendages, hands become talons and other more random transformations take hold. The Chaos Powers may bequeath their dubious 'gifts' upon their champions as they progress toward spawndom or Daemonhood, and entire squads of possessed take to the field.

Alien intervention may also lead to the degradation of a chapter's geneseed, as was the case with Subjugators during the Technetium Belt campaign, leading to metamorphosis, random mutation or more subtle, but equally damaging changes.

It is also the case that the processes utilised by the Adeptus Mechanicus to store and to cultivate tithed geneseed from the Adeptus Astartes may become corrupted and imperfect. Though the particulars of a new Founding are shrouded in secrecy and arcane ritual, it is known that all of a new chapter's genetic make-up is not always drawn from the seed of one donor chapter. Instead, a new chapter may represent a genetic cocktail of the geneseed of others, and although purity testing is rigorous in the extreme, it is perfectly possible that these disparate elements may react with one another at a later date, in ways quite unforeseeable by their creators, and so the seed of a disastrous mutation or character flaw is sown.

Whatever the effect, the servants of the High Lords are always vigilant against the signs of mutation, and the Inquisition is keen to punish any such signs of deviancy. This puts them into conflict with a great many loyal chapters, not least among them the Blood Angels and Space Wolves chapters whose geneseed is known to be as flawed in some respects as it is undoubtedly superior in others. The long and proud history of these and other ancient chapters has to date shielded them from the attentions of the Ordo Hereticus, but other, less renowned chapters are not so immune to the Inquisition's scrutiny, and they may find themselves under investigation should an Inquisitor suspect serious heresy."

[...]

"Upon declaring such a chapter Excommunicatus, an Inquisitor will attempt to determine the root cause of the rebellion in order to gauge the potential obstacles to neutralising it. Should he suspect that Chaos as the reason for the chapter's fall from grace, the Grey Knights may be mobilised. Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause then elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against the wayward chapter. On rare occasions, alien intervention may be suspected, and the highly skilled servants of the Ordo Xenos brought in to investigate. Such an event is of such import as to attract the attention of the High Lords of Terra themselves, and no Inquisitor would bring such accusations without very convincing evidence indeed."

[...]

"Each Chapter is required to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. This 'tithe' serves two purposes, enabling the Adeptus Mechanicus to monitor the health of each Marine Chapter and store gene-seed with a view to founding new Chapters. The Adeptus Mechanicus has on several occasions threatened the Black Dragons with military action unless it complies with this decree and even when the Chapter has submitted genetic data, its veracity has often been considered suspect as each sample provided has passed the most stringent genetic purity checks without fail. Without being able to prove anything, many Adepts believe that the Black Dragons submit genetic material culled from other sources. How this can be possible is unknown and the Adeptus Mechanicus is eager to fully investigate the medical practices within the Black Dragons."

- from the Index Astartes

Hruotland wrote:wd 252 article "codex astartes" sais "On Earth the Adeptus Terra created genetic repositories to produce and store Space Marine gene-seed." Later it states "By taking direct control of the genetic stocks, the Adepts on Earth could ultimately control the Space Marines. Now they alone had the power to destroy or create Space Marine armies at will." No mars, earth wanted this control directly. No wonder, the power of receiving the gene tithe and with that controlling new foundings is the only control they seem to have over the Astartes besides declaring a chapter traitor and requesting other astartes to do do the job of undoing them.

I've read of that as well. Either they retconned this bit, or both Terra as well as Mars are the "two locations in the Imperium" - with Mars doing the testing, and Terra holding the banks for whenever they want to found a new Chapter. Or perhaps they both store a portion of the geneseed?

Yes, there's no contradiction there. It's Earth and Mars, the two most secure places in the IoM. As for examples it's right there in your citation Lynata: The Badab Uprising.

It's called a Priesthood because anything associated with the Imperial government, the instrument of the Emperor, is holy in and of itself.

It's just a collective term for the Imperial government. Only the Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, Adeptus Mechanicus aren't formally apart of it. The Space Marines seem to be de jure part of it, but de facto is another story. That's the purpose of the "dotted line".

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, there's no contradiction there. It's Earth and Mars, the two most secure places in the IoM. As for examples it's right there in your citation Lynata: The Badab Uprising.

Mhm, I meant cases where geneseed tithe defiance directly led to an armed response - in case of the Badab War, it seems to have been just one of many points, and probably less important than Huron opening fire on Imperial ships.

But a number of Space Marine Chapters has been declared renegade and exterminated in the past, who knows for how many of them it's been because of this. That said, considering the value of an Astartes Chapter, I could even imagine they'd be forgiven provided they do relent once an army shows up in front of their doorstep.

Coincidentally ...

"Every single day, squads of Battle Sisters descend upon unsuspecting departments of the Adeptus Terra, administering genetic and psychological tests in order to expose wrongdoers, mutants and malcontents. Whole companies of Battle Sisters travel out to war zones, to the fortress-monasteries of the Adeptus Astartes, to the fleets and to the scattered worlds of the Imperium. No-one is free from their vigilance."

This is old fluff from the days of Rogue Trader, but still referenced even as far as into 3rd Edition. I imagine the Astartes are granted sufficient autonomy and respect to be spared from such visits so long as they play ball and send the samples on their own, though.

Yes, but we've wandered a bit. There's many threads about the political power of Space Marines. The question is: is a regular Space Marine a Priest of Terra? I say no.

I think we all agree about that. However, the organisation as a whole may still be attached to them. There are a number of churches with subdivisions that have no priests in them in our real world, too.

"Priesthood of Terra" is really just used to denote members on the administrative level of the Adeptus Terra - the ones who control the bureaucracy to which almost all other Imperial organisations are linked in some way.
That said, the Priesthood of Terra is also not the only Adeptus (just the most influential one, and perhaps the first bearer of this name), which is why the honorific "Adept" may exist outside its direct structure.

The meaning of "Adeptus Astartes" is "Adepts of the Sky" or "Adept of the Stars" (Astarte being the babylonian godess of sky and stars). This opposing to ""Adept of the Earth" contributes in my opinion to the fact that they are no part of the Adeptus Terra.

Hruotland wrote:Astarte being the babylonian godess of sky and stars

Actually, Astarte was of Phoenician origin and more commonly revered as a goddess of fertility, sexuality and war. The Greeks have basically divided her into Aphrodite and Artemis. The Babylonians did not revere Astarte per se, but may have had a version of her by the name of Ishtar.

The name Astartes has nothing to do with stars; that the Space Marines are often called "sky warriors" on those regressive human colonies where they recruit a majority of their Neophytes has to do with their method of travel/arrival and the stasis of technology and knowledge in which those worlds are kept to retain the feral suitability of its native population.

Likewise, I don't think the "Terra" in "Adeptus Terra" has anything to do with "earth" as in "soil", but rather "Earth" as the planet, the cradle of civilisation and center of the Imperium of Man.

I wonder when The Adeptus Terra was formed. "Priesthood of Terra" sounds pretty religious for the young, atheist Imperium. Maybe The Emperor just wanted to co-op that word and change its meaning.

Lynata, you know that Astarte was named the Goddess of the Sailors (who navigated with the stars) in Delos, and she was worshipped in fallen stars (meteorites)? Likewise, the fertility aspect is also connected to the stars in Babylon, because the calendar was upheld by monitoring the movements of the sky, and this was of most importance to agriculture in order to begin planting in the right date. Most important features of the sky were dedicated to Ishtar in one or the other way, like planet Venus or the star constellation of Virgo. This is no contradiction, but blends together perfectly with the phoinician war aspect. Thus, a double meaning of "adepts of star / war" is even more perfect!

That "Terra" in "Adeptus Terra" does not mean the soil, but the planet, is self-imminent, isn't it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
canuck, the meaning of the word "adeptus" is more "scholar" than "priest". Only in the antique mystery cults it had something to do with religion, and there it meant not the priest, but the cultist in general. If in the fluff the word was installed with the meaning of "scholar" then I don't see a problem with the emperor naming his bureaucracy "adeptus".

I'd imagine that the name Adeptus Terra was coined fairly early, possibly even by the Emperor himself; only later-on was this bastardised to mean Priest of Terra; as mentioned by others, the term adept (a member of any one of the Adeptuses (Adepti?) is better translated as initiate, or specialist (ie, someone who has been initiated in the mysteries of *fill in blank*)

Hruotland wrote:Lynata, you know that Astarte was named the Goddess of the Sailors (who navigated with the stars) in Delos, and she was worshipped in fallen stars (meteorites)? Likewise, the fertility aspect is also connected to the stars in Babylon, because the calendar was upheld by monitoring the movements of the sky, and this was of most importance to agriculture in order to begin planting in the right date. Most important features of the sky were dedicated to Ishtar in one or the other way, like planet Venus or the star constellation of Virgo. This is no contradiction, but blends together perfectly with the phoinician war aspect. Thus, a double meaning of "adepts of star / war" is even more perfect!

But that's not what Astarte meant. Right now you're cherrypicking attributes and domains from a number of different deities or different interpretations of the same deity, who certainly were not worshipped in the same way or for all the same things in their various regions of influence.

If we were to connect the Space Marines to the goddess Astarte, then I'd rather go for the implied meaning in one of her popular portrayals - that of a figurehead on a ship's prow, leading the vessel safely through the storm. If you think of the ship being the Imperium, or its human population, then this theory would fit nicely to what the Space Marines were bred to do in the Great Crusade.

Hruotland wrote:That "Terra" in "Adeptus Terra" does not mean the soil, but the planet, is self-imminent, isn't it?

I thought so, but your post made it sound as if you'd distinguish the factions based on "ground <-> sky", given that you based your opinion that the Space Marines are not organisationally attached to the Adeptus Terra on this. After all, even if the term was supposed to denote something like "warriors of the stars" (which remains a possibility, be it because it's the 41st millennium and the meaning could have changed, or because the original writers made a mistake when researching it, or perhaps even because the people at GW didn't even think of the goddess Astarte when they came up with the term), this is still perfectly compatible to Earth as a planet.
A misunderstanding, I suppose.

Real history religions and pantheons are not as clearly distinguishable as the pantheons of roleplaying supplements. Religions develop, philosophical concepts connect, and what I understand from my studies of cults and religions all over the world, they even boil down to the same fundaments. What you call cherrypicking attributes is seeing concepts and development lines. Ishtar and Astarte, that is even the same name. The babylonian Lady of the Sky IS the same goddess as the Guide of the Seafarers of Askalon. All those seemingly random aspects of things like war, love, sky fit perfectly together, for she is the Heavenly Queen.
Well, I suppose If I inform you of my ideas about the underlying similarities between Jesus, Coyote and Merlin that would in former times instantly have delivered me to the pyres... My friend the doctor of catholic religion at least did not want to hear that our christian rite of eucharisty is indeed symbolic cannibalism and the underlying concept of purification by consuming the deific essence is the same than that of any ritual cannibalistic act. But following this road is very enlightening (in many ways). At least it makes seemingly random elements of antique and contemporary religions very easily understandable and gives sense to a lot of things.

But in the end it is not the question what the REAL Astarte stood for, but which meaning the GW team was understanding.