Dark angels tactics+ first impression

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**tedurur**

labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

**tidalwake**

So the shroud of angels entry reads that "...all friendly units within 6" of one or more Ravenwing Darkshrouds gain the Stealth special rule..."

The stealth special rule starts out "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover save as being 1 point better than normal..."

This would lead me to believe that as long as one model from a unit of bikers was within 6" of the Darkshroud they would all get the +1 cover? Makes it a little more forgiving with positioning this way and less susceptible to blast templates.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tedurur wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

I am not sure about this, it specifically states in the Darkshroud entry on page 49 that all friendly units within 6 gain the stealth special rule then goes on to say in parenthesis that this does not affect the Darkshrouds themselves. Though in the army list section it lists the stealth special rule for their listing. Confusing.

**tedurur**

tidalwake wrote:
So the shroud of angels entry reads that "...all friendly units within 6" of one or more Ravenwing Darkshrouds gain the Stealth special rule..."

The stealth special rule starts out "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover save as being 1 point better than normal..."

This would lead me to believe that as long as one model from a unit of bikers was within 6" of the Darkshroud they would all get the +1 cover? Makes it a little more forgiving with positioning this way and less susceptible to blast templates.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tedurur wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

I am not sure about this, it specifically states in the Darkshroud entry on page 49 that all friendly units within 6 gain the stealth special rule then goes on to say in parenthesis that this does not affect the Darkshrouds themselves. Though in the army list section it lists the stealth special rule for their listing. Confusing.

By RAW there is no confusion. While the Shroud of Angels doesnt give stealth it is quite clearly stated that stealth is an inherent ability of the Darkshorud speeder.

**Krellnus**

tedurur wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

No it doesn't re-read the entry, stealth only.

**tidalwake**

Krellnus wrote:
tedurur wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

No it doesn't re-read the entry, stealth only.

The entry says stealth, but the entry also lists the Shroud of Angels which gives the Darkshroud unit the Shrouded rule.

**tedurur**

Krellnus wrote:
tedurur wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

No it doesn't re-read the entry, stealth only.

Right back at you...There are 0 arguments for the speeder to have only stealth. You go read the entry again

**Coyote81**

I still don't know if it makes the speeder worth taking consistently.

**DaKKaLAnce**

So it seems theres a type O.... Giving Missile lock SR to Nephilim fighter, it has no blast weapons Unless im missing something.

**Jackster**

LSV isnt that incredibly terrible, with a dark shroud around it gets a decent save moving accross the field. Against AV 10-12 vehicles it can pop off 3 S7 AP2 shots and 4 S6 AP4 Rending shot, which is fairly good and it can drop pie plate against infantry.
Get's hot with a vehicle with 2 hull point is worrying though, one unlucky roll and it is halfway dead.

While it seems a bit overpriced and certainly arent as great as BA fast Vindicator or IG stuff (SM vehicles tend to be like that when compared against IG vehicles anyway) I'd wouldnt rate it as worthless.

**Sha1emade**

Yeah... Needs an FAQ or errata soon. Dark shroud has stealth written as a special rule in the army list. But not in its original description on page 49. Book says in summary that the shroud is not effected by the shroud and does not confer stealth to its self. Yet it has stealth. Stealth does not stack with stealth. So I'm leaning towards it not having stealth or why waste the verbage? It would be worth taking if I can get both. Hard annoying unit that dies to lucky shots or lots of concentrated fire power. Limited offense but killer defence. Will have to see.

**Puscifer**

In regards to DW, what is the recommended squad loadout now?

With the last codex I was running 2 TH/SS, 1 CML, 1 CF and a Sergeant.

Will that still be the norm and is it worth just going all out Assault Terminators for the Command Squad?

**DAalltheway**

the rulebook states under Stealth and Shrouded that "Cover save bonuses from Stealth and Shrouded special rules are cumulative...to a max of 2+"

So...if 2 LS Shrouds are within 6" of each other, do they get the following cover save bonuses?:

Landspeeder Shroud 1 - jink save for moving 5+, shrouded 3+, stealth from Landspeeder 2 = final 2+
Landspeeder Shroud 2 - jink save for moving 5+, shrouded 3+, stealth from Landspeeder 1 = final 2+

all this while moving and shooting.

And as a follow-up question, what is the cover save if they are accompanied by Ravenwing Knights within 6"?

Ravenwing Knights = jink save for moving 5+, skilled rider 4+, stealth from LS1 3+, stealth from LS2 2+? I'm not sure if stealth bonuses coming from 2 different units are still cumulative.

Can someone pls clarify?

**Jackster**

You cant gain stealth or shroud twice (Since it doesnt say it's cumulative and you cant normally get the benefit of the same special rule twice), stealth and shroud works though.
Camo Cloak also works since it just gives you 1 better cover than what you would otherwise have, so a scout squad with cloaks behind a AGL with a Darkshroud would have 2+ cover.

**labmouse42**

tedurur wrote:
Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

Are you sure?

The wording is "The Ravenwing Darkshround has the Shrouded special rule. In addition, all friendly units within 6" of one or more Ravenwing Darkshrouds gain the Stealth special rule (This does not affect the Darkshrouds themselves)"

It seems pretty clear they get shrouded and not stealth.

Edit : I expect that the back entry will be FAQ'ed to 'Shrouded'. That's whats described on page 49 -- which also does not mention stealth for the darkshroud.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tedurur wrote:
By RAW there is no confusion. While the Shroud of Angels doesnt give stealth it is quite clearly stated that stealth is an inherent ability of the Darkshorud speeder.

No. Shrouded is the intent.
Shrouded is better than stealth.

**Gar'Ang**

If the wording is "Darkshrouds themselves" then that indicates the plural form and would hence mean that you cannot have two next to eachother and get stealth from the other.
Just my cent

**labmouse42**

DAalltheway wrote:
So...if 2 LS Shrouds are within 6" of each other, do they get the following cover save bonuses?:

No. Read the entry. When it says stealth is excluded, its excluded for "Darkshrouds". The plural indicates that multiple darkshrouds cannot give each other stealth.

Edit : Gar'Ang ninja'ed me!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DAalltheway wrote:

Ravenwing Knights = jink save for moving 5+, skilled rider 4+, stealth from LS1 3+, stealth from LS2 2+? I'm not sure if stealth bonuses coming from 2 different units are still cumulative.

The entry says it only gets stealth once. You don't get stealth twice. Their save would be 3+, and go to a 2+ if they went flat out.

**Kingsley**

tedurur wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:
Right, they get shrouded.
That stacks with 'jink' of the speeder, giving it a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ cover save if it moved flat out.
I, for one, will be hating shooting at a model with a 2+ cover save when it rushes forward covering 18 bikes.

Since bikes have such a big base, you can cover quite a few squads by putting one model within 6" in the shroud-speeder. Even one of these is a huge force multiplier to your bike army.

Actually there is no need to go flat out. The speeder has Stealth AND Shrouded so it will always have a 2+ coversave. So They will sell quite a few LSV kits despite the fact that the LSV rules sucks donkeyballs.

Even if it has Stealth and Shrouded (I greatly suspect it doesn't), I don't think the Ravenwing Darkshroud is worth its slot and price. At AV10 2HP, 2+ cover is insufficient protection. A single Thunderfire Cannon, psyker casting Perfect Timing, Sternguard squad firing Dragonfire rounds, etc. has a pretty good chance of taking one out, to say nothing of Vector Strikes, close combat attacks, high strength template weapons, Markerlights, Exarchs firing Quad-Guns with Crack Shot...

Overall I think the Ravenwing Darkshroud is a good "noob slayer" unit but will not be good against players who have adapted to 6th edition and taken units that can deal with cover saves effectively, 2+ cover save or no 2+ cover save. Since good players are already taking such units, I don't expect the Darkshroud to be a big hit on the competitive scene, especially given the distaste many seem to have for the model and concept.

**Gar'Ang**

labmouse42 wrote:

Edit : Gar'Ang ninja'ed me!

Yeah sorry for that!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So this question I thought might fit in here.
I have (including here what I'm picking up tomorrow) 12 dv bikes (4 of each model), Sammael, one RW command box and one flyer box. As my pure Ravenwing stuff. I also have the tac and termy squads from DV. I know this isn't competitive but any suggestions on which plane to build and if I should use the tac's and termys until I get more RW stuff?

Oh btw one more question. Since GW failed to ship the codex on time (will arrive on tuesday) my local shop is giving us who preordered the choice of Belial, Asmodai or a Dark Angel Veteran Squad for free, which one should I pick?

**Kingsley**

Gar'Ang wrote:
Oh btw one more question. Since GW failed to ship the codex on time (will arrive on tuesday) my local shop is giving us who preordered the choice of Belial, Asmodai or a Dark Angel Veteran Squad for free, which one should I pick?

DA vets. Belial isn't good in the type of army you're looking to make and Asmodai is not even close to worth his points. The Veterans have all kinds of cool bitz you can use to customize the rest of your army.

**Gar'Ang**

Kingsley wrote:
Gar'Ang wrote:
Oh btw one more question. Since GW failed to ship the codex on time (will arrive on tuesday) my local shop is giving us who preordered the choice of Belial, Asmodai or a Dark Angel Veteran Squad for free, which one should I pick?

DA vets. Belial isn't good in the type of army you're looking to make and Asmodai is not even close to worth his points. The Veterans have all kinds of cool bitz you can use to customize the rest of your army.

Thanks, I was leaning towards the vets anyway so thanks for helping me make up my mind!

**labmouse42**

Kingsley, its possible we play in vastly different meta's, but I disagree with your analysis.

Kingsley wrote:
A single Thunderfire Cannon,
Exarchs firing Quad-Guns with Crack Shot...

What makes you think that these targets would survive past turn 1? If your playing someone who has no idea of target priority maybe, but for most players taking out a quad gun is not all that hard.

Kingsley wrote:
psyker casting Perfect Timing,

Assuming they get the power. That's not a guaranteed thing.

Kingsley wrote:
Sternguard squad firing Dragonfire rounds, etc.

A 2/3 chance to hit, and a 1/6 chance to glance means that each shot has a 1/9 chance of shooting. Their probably not shooting within 12", so that's 1 hull point down. What are the odds of the sternguard living to get another shot?

Kingsley wrote:
close combat attacks

What's going to get close enough to do that? Its surrounded by bikes. Sure, you might use a FMC to do it, but then your FMC will die to plasma fire. You traded a 200+ point model for a 80 point model.

Kingsley wrote:
Markerlights

I've not played against Tau in a competitive setting in a long time. Maybe after the new codex hits we will see this.

Kingsley wrote:
Vector Strikes

Now you have found a weakness of the darkshroud. FMCs or helldrakes can be a good counter.

Kingsley wrote:
high strength template weapons,

Daemon flamers are a good counter, but then again they are a good counter to everything! Other flamers suffer from the problem of getting close, and then they wind up being a trade. Sure, a redeemer can do the job, but is it worth trading a redeemer for the darkshroud.

Kingsley wrote:
Overall I think the Ravenwing Darkshroud is a good "noob slayer"

I disagree. I don't think that its going to be a 'big hit', but it will be a good assist for specific army concepts.

Here is the real key. While someone is directing a large amount of fire and attention to the darkshroud, they are not shooting the bikes. That 80 point shield is completely worth it for that. I played a bike army for years, and the biggest PITA was not PGs or MGs, it was torrent of high str fire like scatter lasers or autocannon spam. Now that tools will be focusing on the darkshroud, which is more resistant than bikes. That's the value the darkshroud brings.

**Sephyr**

labmouse42 wrote:

Kingsley wrote:
Vector Strikes
Now you have found a weakness of the darkshroud. FMCs or helldrakes can be a good counter.

I thought you could not make cover saves against Vector strikes, as it never states that the hits are melee or ignore cover.

**Spartan089**

I think pure raven wing looks awesome btw and synergy between dark knights and darkshroud is amazing

Skilled Rider + Stealth + Turbo Boost = 2+ cover for the Black Knights.
Flat Out + Shrouding = 2+ cover for the Darkshroud.

At 2000 points I came up with this after 5 minutes of reading the new codex, seems pretty solid to me. 26pts left over.

HQ

Samuel - 200

Troops

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

Fast

Raven Wing Black Knights (10)- 420

Raven Wing Dark Shroud - 80

Raven Wing Dark Shroud - 80

**labmouse42**

Sephyr wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:

Kingsley wrote:
Vector Strikes
Now you have found a weakness of the darkshroud. FMCs or helldrakes can be a good counter.

I thought you could not make cover saves against Vector strikes, as it never states that the hits are melee or ignore cover.

you can't get cover saves, hence why I said vector strikes are a good counter. Helldrakes can tear up those darkshrouds

**Gar'Ang**

It doesn't state in the BGB that Vector strikes ignore cover saves, is that something in the FAQ?

**DAalltheway**

Here is the real key. While someone is directing a large amount of fire and attention to the darkshroud, they are not shooting the bikes. That 80 point shield is completely worth it for that. I played a bike army for years, and the biggest PITA was not PGs or MGs, it was torrent of high str fire like scatter lasers or autocannon spam. Now that tools will be focusing on the darkshroud, which is more resistant than bikes. That's the value the darkshroud brings.

I agree with this assessment. Many agree the T5 marines just don't cut it in today's shooty environment. Having the darkshroud option allows bike units like dark Knights to actually live through a lot of punishment or actually make the opponent concentrate the rest of their firepower elsewhere. This is what Ravenwing has been waiting for. Bikes don't have take the brunt of the punishment.

Of course if you spam units like this, other armies will have a counter so the important thing is to add other threats that are equally as important. A 6 man command squad in a LR, rhino or a razorback (for smaller point games) with the dakka banner together with (maybe 3) MSU ravenwing troop bikes within 6" could make the enemy think twice of where to concentrate their fire. Couple that with some cheap dev sqauds and it may be worth something to consider...

On a semi cheesy note...given that DA troop choices can take a 5 man squad with a heavy weapon for possibly less than 100 points, do you think MSU troop choices with heavy weapon options will be commonplace in a competitive environment?

**Gar'Ang**

After having read through the FAQ I find not a single reference to Vector striking ignoring cover. Just so you know

**DAalltheway**

As for the terminators, here I really think Belial is necessary if you want to run termies successfully. The reason is because both terminator types are best in close combat. Yes the standard ones can get shooting weapons, but besides the 2 heavy weapons you get the rest is just storm bolters. Regular tacticals in a rhino bring bolters to bear, termies need to do much more to justify 3x the cost of a tactical marine. So since getting into close combat is the priority, Belial combined with death wing assault lets you no deep strike scatter in on turn 1 with a 10 man termie squad in tow. Both knights and regular termies in my opinion are equally good in close combat, so the main difference becomes if you want to shoot on your turn in. Regular termies get twin linked on the deep strike turn, making assault cannons or cyclones a good choice, and with split fire you can put a twin linked assault cannon or cyclone into 2 different transports. Split fire also gives you multiple options for assault, letting you fire a single storm bolter on your chain fist model at your intended charge target while the heavy weapon fires at a distant vehicle.

The knights on the other hand are t5 for at least the turn they deep strike in, and have no qualm about running since they don't shoot. They are also ws5 which adds up quickly, and the whole unit gets to precision strike meaning the ap2 wielding models, who usually swing at init 1, have a good chance to be killed by maces before swinging. Knights are harder to manage in my opinion, since you need to spread out to avoid blasts but maintain base contact in an unbroken chain to keep t5, which is a big deal to keep the knights alive under fire. Also, managing when to use the smite attack can be tricky some times I have no doubt. Knights are also not troops, but I don't see this as a problem as I rather like the tactical squads and scout squads, and feel that terminators don't need to be troops in this edition.

Can you still mix TH/SH termies with the DW shooty ones? If you can then I'd opt for the shooty termies over the knights. They just seem more versatile. If what they say is true that you can have a CML with a TH/SH option then in a 10-man termie squad, you get the t-linked for 2 CML and have enough 3+ invul saves to protect your shooty termies and survive for an assault (add maybe 2 more TH/SS termies just to be on the safe side). Not to mention you can OW if you are charged.

**wuestenfux**

Spartan089 wrote:
I think pure raven wing looks awesome btw and synergy between dark knights and darkshroud is amazing

Skilled Rider + Stealth + Turbo Boost = 2+ cover for the Black Knights.
Flat Out + Shrouding = 2+ cover for the Darkshroud.

At 2000 points I came up with this after 5 minutes of reading the new codex, seems pretty solid to me. 26pts left over.

HQ

Samuel - 200

Troops

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

296
Raven Wing Bikers (6) x2 plasma
Attack Bike – Multi-melta
- Landspeeder – Heavy Flamer

Fast

Raven Wing Black Knights (10)- 420

Raven Wing Dark Shroud - 80

Raven Wing Dark Shroud - 80

Well, it can be quite durable with good cover saves. But it has definitely too less models at the 2000 pt level.

**Puscifer**

DAalltheway wrote:

As for the terminators, here I really think Belial is necessary if you want to run termies successfully. The reason is because both terminator types are best in close combat. Yes the standard ones can get shooting weapons, but besides the 2 heavy weapons you get the rest is just storm bolters. Regular tacticals in a rhino bring bolters to bear, termies need to do much more to justify 3x the cost of a tactical marine. So since getting into close combat is the priority, Belial combined with death wing assault lets you no deep strike scatter in on turn 1 with a 10 man termie squad in tow. Both knights and regular termies in my opinion are equally good in close combat, so the main difference becomes if you want to shoot on your turn in. Regular termies get twin linked on the deep strike turn, making assault cannons or cyclones a good choice, and with split fire you can put a twin linked assault cannon or cyclone into 2 different transports. Split fire also gives you multiple options for assault, letting you fire a single storm bolter on your chain fist model at your intended charge target while the heavy weapon fires at a distant vehicle.

The knights on the other hand are t5 for at least the turn they deep strike in, and have no qualm about running since they don't shoot. They are also ws5 which adds up quickly, and the whole unit gets to precision strike meaning the ap2 wielding models, who usually swing at init 1, have a good chance to be killed by maces before swinging. Knights are harder to manage in my opinion, since you need to spread out to avoid blasts but maintain base contact in an unbroken chain to keep t5, which is a big deal to keep the knights alive under fire. Also, managing when to use the smite attack can be tricky some times I have no doubt. Knights are also not troops, but I don't see this as a problem as I rather like the tactical squads and scout squads, and feel that terminators don't need to be troops in this edition.

Can you still mix TH/SH termies with the DW shooty ones? If you can then I'd opt for the shooty termies over the knights. They just seem more versatile. If what they say is true that you can have a CML with a TH/SH option then in a 10-man termie squad, you get the t-linked for 2 CML and have enough 3+ invul saves to protect your shooty termies and survive for an assault (add maybe 2 more TH/SS termies just to be on the safe side). Not to mention you can OW if you are charged.

All of the Deathwing Squads (except Knights) can mix weapons. I'm thinking of taking 7 man squads in Crusaders with the following configuration:

Sergeant.
TH/SS.
TH/SS.
CML.
SB/CF.
SB/PF.
SB/PF.

The squad has a fair mix of Shooting and CC and I think it can mix it up pretty well.

Either going to take 2 squads of these guys with a command and Belial or 2 squads of 5 "tactical" Terminators, 1 Assault Command Squad and a unit of Knights or just 1 massive assault squad in approximately 1850, deep striking Belial in on T1 or T2 to distract the opponent.