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I think there is a 20 model FW landraider.
Don't ignore a unit of combi flamers... use bolters...

RW, DW, Multiwing, DA spam are all good options and they are all rock paper squat with other armies.

A majority of the time...
DW beats CSM
RW beats Elites/AT/other fast attack choices
DA spam (min/max, or just mass tacs and devs), beat same idea in other SM armies

Only tournament competitive army (that will be able to fight everything) is gonna be a properly balanced multiwing and a good general behind it.

Here is a question I have while trying to put together some preliminary lists: For those running Dualwing and taking Azrael, what are you doing with him? He can't deep strike or move in quickly on a bike like some other HQ choices, I like his statline but I don't really know how to effectively use him. T4 scares me as it would be easy to have a S8 hit ID him and lose my warlord.

Only thing I can think of is to throw him in a LR with some DW Knights and truck it up to the frontline so he can get in CC and can be made T5 by their Fortress Shields ability (since he has Inner Circle he can benefit from this, correct?)

Yeah, Azrael in his artificer armor with 2+ regular and 4+ invul though is close enough to a terminator to pass for one. In dual wing lists his bonus is making both DW and RW scoring. However his squad 4+ is not that great spent on on 5+ PF/SB termies.

I'm thinking of running him with a vet squad kitted out with chainswords and a melta or two in a drop pod in my wing list.

 Tomb King wrote:
Anyone else notice that azrael cant be taken in an allied detachment due to the requirement that he must be your warlord.

Same page azraels master crafted combi weapon... the way its described makes it sound like it has 2 plasma guns.

Kind of sucks that dark angels lack codex psychic powers...

final note: I heard someone mention a 20 model land raider. I dont see any above 16.

The FAQ specified that Azrael only has to be your warlord if he is chosen in a primary attachment. He can still be used as an ally.

Although Dark Angels don't have their own psyker tables, they do have 4 schools including Divination, which vanilla marines & chaos do not have. We also don't know if armies are supposed to get their own psyker schools in 6th edition or if it was a way to make CSM more unique.


Another thing Company Veterans can do is drop their bolter for a chainsword for free. If I wanted some assault marines, it'd cost 170 points + free rhino/drop pod (-35) for base 1 attack and only sgt can get a power weapon vs 180 for 10 company vets with 2 CCWs and base 2 attack where every model can get a power weapon.


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tidalwake wrote:
Here is a question I have while trying to put together some preliminary lists: For those running Dualwing and taking Azrael, what are you doing with him? He can't deep strike or move in quickly on a bike like some other HQ choices, I like his statline but I don't really know how to effectively use him. T4 scares me as it would be easy to have a S8 hit ID him and lose my warlord.

Only thing I can think of is to throw him in a LR with some DW Knights and truck it up to the frontline so he can get in CC and can be made T5 by their Fortress Shields ability (since he has Inner Circle he can benefit from this, correct?)

No. Deathwing Knights get the toughness boost from their Fortress of Shields ability, not Inner Circle. It requires models that also have Fortress of Shields.

Wow for nearly one hundred points you can take a banner for FnP. Is anyone ever gonna pay that much for FnP? Great area of effect but for a one wound model that is a hefty cost to pay.

Nivek5150 wrote:


No. Deathwing Knights get the toughness boost from their Fortress of Shields ability, not Inner Circle. It requires models that also have Fortress of Shields.

If I remember correctly, Fortress of shields requires inner circle to get the +1 toughness and two models with fortress of shields in B2B. At least in the unit description but somewhere else the book describes it as something completely different.

 Tarrasq wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:


No. Deathwing Knights get the toughness boost from their Fortress of Shields ability, not Inner Circle. It requires models that also have Fortress of Shields.

If I remember correctly, Fortress of shields requires inner circle to get the +1 toughness and two models with fortress of shields in B2B. At least in the unit description but somewhere else the book describes it as something completely different.

Yeah, the more I look at it the more I cringe. The unit description says any Inner Circle can get the bonus, the reference in the back says "Fortress of Shields: If in base contact with at least two other models with this special rule, the model has Toughness 5." That can be interpreted as only models with FoS can get it, and it can also be interpreted as ANY model can get it and becomes toughness FIVE instead of +1 toughness. So I guess get some ally guard to bubble wrap it and make them skip from toughness 3 to toughness 5 suddenly? I gotta think the RAI was one of the first two.




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 Tomb King wrote:
Wow for nearly one hundred points you can take a banner for FnP. Is anyone ever gonna pay that much for FnP? Great area of effect but for a one wound model that is a hefty cost to pay.

Theory: In the Sacred Standards portion, it is listed in the order of Retribution, Fortitude, Devastation. But in the pricing list, it is listed as Retribution, Devastation, Fortitude. Given how many errors are in this book, is it possible the Salvo banner is meant to be 85 and the FNP banner 65? Hmm...

Somebody mentioned podding in veterans near Belial. But podding requires locator beacon, not teleport homer. Did I miss some point, because I think the only place in the whole codex you can get a locator beacon is in a drop pod? It is not in the special wargear -section.

All bikes also have the teleport homer, not locator beacon.

So, podding is full scatter if I didnt miss something here.

The reference is just an abridged version of the shild rules, you can't use that for primary rules as it is obviously incomplete.

The fortress of shields does have the ability to buff someone like Belial to t5 provided he is in base contact with 2 knights. Usually shield walls work by covering each other, which is obviously how they modeled the knights.

pods hardly scatter though...
Shield is from unit entry first
Oh and i'd trade all CSM psypowers for divination powers. Hell i'd trade ALL powers for just rolling divination, the only thing that comes close is bio.

Timmon wrote:
Somebody mentioned podding in veterans near Belial. But podding requires locator beacon, not teleport homer. Did I miss some point, because I think the only place in the whole codex you can get a locator beacon is in a drop pod? It is not in the special wargear -section.

All bikes also have the teleport homer, not locator beacon.

So, podding is full scatter if I didnt miss something here.

Locator Beacons are in the vehicle wargear section

DevianID wrote:
The reference is just an abridged version of the shild rules, you can't use that for primary rules as it is obviously incomplete.

The fortress of shields does have the ability to buff someone like Belial to t5 provided he is in base contact with 2 knights. Usually shield walls work by covering each other, which is obviously how they modeled the knights.

Yeah I'd get it if it required the person to have a storm shield as well. You show up for a phalanx without a shield, you're of no use to anybody. Am I supposed to imagine Belial, greatest of all Dark Angels warriors, hiding behind a couple Deathwing Knights? Besides, standing next to 2 guys who have shields doesn't exactly constitute a "shield wall". Although calling 5 guys with shields a fortress seems rather silly to me, too. I mean, I know you can't expect every rule on the tabletop to translate perfectly to the fluff, but the more I think about this rule the more it bugs me.

I'm wondering about Belial's teleport homer ...
A lot of people are thinking about dropping him on turn1 and then dropping a second wave on turn two around him.
Won't work though as the DWA rule specifically that you pick one turn for the units selected for the DWA and that they will drop on this one turn.
So apart from fielding him on the ground and dropping reinforcements around, what's the use of the homer on Belial ?

The lack of EW on Belial is slightly disturbing (as I always imagined him as kinda like Lysander, if Lysander made Termies scoring), but as GW is moving away from EW as a whole, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

And Belial's teleport homer may come in handy for stuff like Gate of Infinity or something...

Belial got handled by Gazgul. Interesting fluff. Every route I work trying to get these relic standards into my army results in way too many points spent just to unlock them and then even more to get the banner itself on a 1 wound model. :(

Nivek5150 wrote:

No. Deathwing Knights get the toughness boost from their Fortress of Shields ability, not Inner Circle. It requires models that also have Fortress of Shields.

You are incorrect here, read the codex again page 45, any model with Inner Circle in base with two models having the Fortress Shield rule has its' toughness increased by 1.




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Nivek5150 wrote:

Yeah, the more I look at it the more I cringe. The unit description says any Inner Circle can get the bonus, the reference in the back says "Fortress of Shields: If in base contact with at least two other models with this special rule, the model has Toughness 5." That can be interpreted as only models with FoS can get it, and it can also be interpreted as ANY model can get it and becomes toughness FIVE instead of +1 toughness. So I guess get some ally guard to bubble wrap it and make them skip from toughness 3 to toughness 5 suddenly? I gotta think the RAI was one of the first two.

No, it still requires Inner Circle to gain the toughness bonus, since there are no models with Inner Circle with a toughness of less than 4 it doesn't really end up being a big deal that they reworded it to 5 toughness instead of +1, no idea why they put it that way though. Can't use it on allies or greenwing or ravenwing even. Pretty much just HQ's and other Deathwing with the Inner Circle rule.

TanKoL wrote:
I'm wondering about Belial's teleport homer ...
A lot of people are thinking about dropping him on turn1 and then dropping a second wave on turn two around him.
Won't work though as the DWA rule specifically that you pick one turn for the units selected for the DWA and that they will drop on this one turn.
So apart from fielding him on the ground and dropping reinforcements around, what's the use of the homer on Belial ?

You can choose not to DWA your terminators I guess. Then they can arrive with normal reserves from deepstrike from turn 2 onward.

Also, in most cases, whether Fortress of Shields is applied to the entire unit, attached ICs or your mum, only matters with regards to Instant Death. The majority Toughness of the unit will usually be T5 now (even if you put four or more Knights in a line or three in a triangle and two separate 2" away). In case of attached ICs or your mum, you can Look Out Sir! to avoid instant death to STR 8 or 9 weaponry.

 Tarrasq wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:


No. Deathwing Knights get the toughness boost from their Fortress of Shields ability, not Inner Circle. It requires models that also have Fortress of Shields.

If I remember correctly, Fortress of shields requires inner circle to get the +1 toughness and two models with fortress of shields in B2B. At least in the unit description but somewhere else the book describes it as something completely different.

What happened to the majority toughness rule in the BRB pg25 that says "roll to wound using the Toughness value of the majority of the engaged foe." As long as enough of the squad is in base to base the whole squad should be T5 (with the special inner circle rule).

I haven't read the fluff description of the Fortress of Shields ability, but I don't find it unreasonable that they are so proficient in using their shields (which are so much larger than standard storm shields anyway; the size of kite shields) that they can act as Shield Man for their leaders, fullfilling a bodyguard role.
That is my take on that. As other point out, its not exactly relevant.

The issue could only really come up if you had a character start tanking str8/9 wounds draigo style. Even then it is not that big a deal.

I think that veterans are potentially more useful than people think. They can essentially be a suicide squad for, I'll admit, a good sum of points. But the distruption they can cause could be worth it. As mentioned before, just because they can't score doesn' t mean they can't contest, effectively denying your opponent a point. You could use them to kill scouts off of an aegis line and then use that aegis line to kill you ropponents flyers/ as cover for your own units. Strong linebreaker unit potentially too. Miced with DW or possibly RW they can certainly cause disruption and a 'sandwhich effect' splitting your opponent's fire to get your DW dropped in more safely etc. Plus, if you have enough units on the table, half your pods and all your DW can arrive turn 1 wherever they need to. It's a lot of dakka right in your opponent's face. Used correctly I think they could be good.

They can also be used as a bodyguard unit for someone like Azrael, and give them some decent cc punch in power armor form, something that DA do not have very commonly.

-VardenV2

Yeah, vets as combi platforms and azrael bodyguards are the 2 best uses I can find for them.

Anyone got an opinion on Deathwing-ing Rifleman Dreads? The upped BS is negligible with both guns being TL, the upped WS is pointless (any time someone gets to my Mortis I write him off as dead), but the rerolling on the damage table can make a difference.

Also I hear that you can take load outs other than two TL Autocannons, I just can't imagine why you would

tidalwake wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:

No. Deathwing Knights get the toughness boost from their Fortress of Shields ability, not Inner Circle. It requires models that also have Fortress of Shields.

You are incorrect here, read the codex again page 45, any model with Inner Circle in base with two models having the Fortress Shield rule has its' toughness increased by 1.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nivek5150 wrote:

Yeah, the more I look at it the more I cringe. The unit description says any Inner Circle can get the bonus, the reference in the back says "Fortress of Shields: If in base contact with at least two other models with this special rule, the model has Toughness 5." That can be interpreted as only models with FoS can get it, and it can also be interpreted as ANY model can get it and becomes toughness FIVE instead of +1 toughness. So I guess get some ally guard to bubble wrap it and make them skip from toughness 3 to toughness 5 suddenly? I gotta think the RAI was one of the first two.

No, it still requires Inner Circle to gain the toughness bonus, since there are no models with Inner Circle with a toughness of less than 4 it doesn't really end up being a big deal that they reworded it to 5 toughness instead of +1, no idea why they put it that way though. Can't use it on allies or greenwing or ravenwing even. Pretty much just HQ's and other Deathwing with the Inner Circle rule.

As I said, I don't think this is how it works and I would never play it this way. But I can see someone trying to argue it, because I've seen cringe-worthy attempts at breaking the game by rules lawyers before. My issue with the rule is that it isn't practical fluff-wise and it is written different ways.

Magister187 wrote:I haven't read the fluff description of the Fortress of Shields ability, but I don't find it unreasonable that they are so proficient in using their shields (which are so much larger than standard storm shields anyway; the size of kite shields) that they can act as Shield Man for their leaders, fullfilling a bodyguard role.

"In battle, the Deathwing Knights are a heavy shock force - teleporting to the fight with shields locked. With incoming fire ricocheting off them, the Knights march for the greatest threat with impunity, first slamming into them with their mighty storm shields, before setting about the foe with their maces and flails."

This is the only mention of how they use their shields.

With the decrease in price on venerable it's not a terrible option, but since hull points exist it does not really increase survivability that much. Also, on a pen even with a reroll your still going to be taken out of the fight a bit via shaken or similar results.

So for a tl auto dread I would skip the dw upgrade as like you said your not benefiting much from the ws and bs upgrade on that dread loadout, and the survivability bonus isn't great to begin with.

Regarding Wall of Shields, BRB says that you roll against the majority T in a unit. It also explicitly states that if you have 2 different toughness values tied you pick the highest. Page 14 in the tiny rulebook (Dark Vengeance pocketbook) entry "Multiple Toughness Values."

This applies even if there is a single toughness 5 model and a single toughness 4 model in a unit - both count as T5. This is also the case in close combat as it states on page 25 under "Multiple Toughness Values" in the Assault section.

It's stupid in my opinion, but that is how it is written.

e.g. the way the Deathwing Knights entry is written, you would need to have one model in B2B contact with 2 models. This would result in 3 T5 models and 2 T4 models. The T4 models could be kept at max (2") cohesion. Any wound rolls would have to be tested against the majority value per the rulebook in both CC and shooting, e.g. all wound rolls would be rolled against T5. In effect you get the benefit of T5 even though not every model in the unit is T5. This allows you to avoid some of the dangers associated with blast weapons. It also means that you could add an independent character such as Belial into the unit and he could benefit from the Toughness 5 in wound rolls even though he is effectively Toughness 4 as long as at least 3 models in the unit are in base to base contact. Per the rules as written.

I just realized that you can take up to FIVE land speeder per slot...

Hmmmm... 3 five-man speeders with Cyclone ML... Not much can withstand that much fire powah. o.O

taht much Av10 isn't quite as scary as you might think.

Coyote81 wrote:
taht much Av10 isn't quite as scary as you might think.

Beg to differ. But, YMMV.

Put ML + HB and it's a dakka storm...x 15 and that's 30 Str 8 or cupcake template... in addition to 45 HB shots.

That ain't nothing to sneeze at.

But how expensive is it? Are we talking like Long Fang cheap here? Or is that something that's going to eat points like a fat man eats cookies?