Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am considering adding IG allies to my C:SM but I know nothing about the Imperial Guard. I have read the IG codex but I am just starting to get a grip on my main army (C:SM) and am far from being able to make heads or tails of the IG codex.

I know there are some seriously knowledgeable IG players on this forum so I am putting the question out to you guys.

How could I add an allied IG attachment to my C:SM that would be relatively cheap both points-wise and in real dollars. I intend on having rifleman dreads, typhoons, and vindicators along with other standard Marine fare, so I'm not looking for IG armor. I like the idea of having a big, shooting focused guardsman infantry squad to either charge at a lightly held, out of the way objective or advance as a meat-shield.

Maybe a CCS, PCS, and 2-4 infantry platoons or something like that.

So can a shooty IG infantry attachment be made in the 200-400 point range? Are shooty IG infantry squads even effective enough to be worth taking?

Like I said this would ideally be a cheap (points and $$) and expendable unit. Something I could throw at the enemy or put on the gunline. I'd like to expand on the IG allies in the future as well to include the real IG toys like Leman Russ's or Basilisks, so it would be nice if the unit was something I could use as time went on.

Any and all advice is welcome.

Unfortunately, collecting a ton of foot guard is somewhat 'real dollars' expensive.

But I often ally gunline guard with my DW to provide plenty of heavy weapons, or Vendettas for great air support.

And if you ever want to swap over to mech guard, just get some Chimeras and toss em in there as vets, and load up on Russ'. However, I strongly recommend an Armored Battlegroup force as an ally. Lots of tanks without having to waste points on squishy guard.

Really a guard ally can do anything you want. What in your list is lacking?

2-4 platoons? I think you mean vet squads. 2-4 platoons will net you at minimum 40-80 guys....

And you want shooty? Oh, we can do shooty. Our FOC is a bit....complicated...compared to other squads.

Platoons work like this. A platoon takes up ONE FOC slot. A platoon is made up of 1 Platoon Command Squad of 5 men, and a minimum of 2 Infantry Squads of 10 men. You can have up to 5 Infantry Squads. You can also have up to 5 Heavy Weapons Squads of 3 Heavy Weapons each. You CAN NOT take them individually, they must be taken as part of a platoon. So I can take just a HWS, I have to take a platoon and put the HWS in it. Same with Infantry Squads. The Platoon deploys together, and counts as 1 FOC, but each unit is independent and does not need to stay in coherency.

You want cheap and expendable. We also do that really well. Give yourself a CCS, and outfit it with what ever weapons you need to so it can cover your weak sides (low AT, give the guys 4 Meltaguns for instance). Then, add a Platoon for numbers. Keep the PCS cheap, they aren't that good, I recommend 4 Flamers to give some flame walls. Since you plan to be moving these guys around, give the Infantry Squads (who can have someone exchange a lasgun for a Special Weapon, AND 2 guys for a Heavy Weapon) a Plasma Gun or a Flamer. Grenade Launchers are pretty much useless. Most of what you select weapon wise will end up coming from what you lack in your main list. Keep that in mind. I will assume you have a basic understanding of what weapons do what. Usually, there is only 2 practical special weapons people will ever take. Plasma Guns and Melta Guns. The rest of them are costed badly or wasted. Flamers do have a use, as I said.

If you want a gun-line out of the Infantry, you can put Heavy Weapons in them (to maximize use) or take Heavy Weapon Squads to leave at the gun-line while the Infantry Squads move ahead. For the most part, there is really only 2 heavy weapons that make sense. Autocannons and Lascannons. Heavy Bolters are outclassed by Autocannons, why take a missile launcher when you can have a lascannon which is better than it in almost every way for 5 points more, Mortars are only good in numbers which gets expensive, etc.

Since you mentioned big squads, you can blob squads. What that means is taking any number of Infantry Squads from the same platoon and making it one big squad. So instead of 2 10 man squads, I have 1 20 man squad for instance. Use that as you see fit, but you have to do it at the start of the game and can't undo it.

Sorry if I got a bit complicated, but that's the nature of the IG. Money wise....you might be pushing the budget a bit....but it's all good buys....there is also Vet Squads, but they have a bit of a different use than platoons so I'll leave someone else to explain that haha

EDIT: Quick Edits in bold

Guard aren't resilient enough to advance on objectives or charge.

Guard have three good uses as allies.

-Home-objective holding gunline

-Tanks

-Vendettas

I suggest a CCS and a 4 man Infantry blob with Lascannons to sit on your home objective, and then a vendetta and a Plasma Veteran squad inside it.

Maybe a tank/basilisk, if you're feeling fancy.

Advancing on enemy objectives is as strong point for c sm but it isn't a strong point of guard. Holding an objective near cover is a very strong point for guard.

For starters I would recommend 1 command box, 1 heavy weapons box, and 2 infantry boxes. That's enough to field a ccs and pcs (officers come from the command box) and 2 infantry squads and 3 heavy weapons teams split between the squads

Next I would buy a vendetta, after that go for whatever...

Yeah, I'd opt for an armored battle force: Vets in Chimerae, Vendettas, Leman Russes, or a Manticore.

A Blob squad with Lascannons, a Vendetta with plasma vets, and a manticore.

And the manditory CCS, of course. Could always just use a Lord Commissar, no? stick him in the blob and let the PCS do the orders.

Crazyterran wrote:
A Blob squad with Lascannons, a Vendetta with plasma vets, and a manticore.

And the manditory CCS, of course. Could always just use a Lord Commissar, no? stick him in the blob and let the PCS do the orders.

Except the PCS orders suck.

Crazyterran wrote:
A Blob squad with Lascannons, a Vendetta with plasma vets, and a manticore.

And the manditory CCS, of course. Could always just use a Lord Commissar, no? stick him in the blob and let the PCS do the orders.

No, he's gunna want those CCS orders.

I appreciate the ideas so far. Gives me something to base ideas around.

I am thinking that I want this unit for cheap, weight of fire shooting. If I could give them a bunch of lascannons that would save me paying the premium SM prices for them. (are guard LC's any good?)

I think the infantry options yall have mentioned would suit me best as the uses of this squad would be:
Spread them out to thwart drop pod assault on my armor. Advance them in front of my main assault to give open ground cover saves. Use them to tarpit an enemy CC unit until I can deal with it. Sit them back to camp a backfield objective. Put them on the gunline against charging horde armies. Or send them on a mad dash at some out of the way/lightly held objective (most likely with support, though perhaps without if the situation demands it).

Basically, flexible expendable infantry, that can, with some luck and orders, potentially toss 30+ shots on some unit and make them roll a ton of cover saves and can otherwise be used like cheap, off brand, duct tape to get things done the dirty way.

Like I said before I fully plan on getting basilisks and LRBT's down the road, but for now I want to have an idea what to keep an eye out for in case I see a screaming deal on ebay or something.

UltraTacSgt wrote:
I appreciate the ideas so far. Gives me something to base ideas around.

I am thinking that I want this unit for cheap, weight of fire shooting. If I could give them a bunch of lascannons that would save me paying the premium SM prices for them. (are guard LC's any good?)

I think the infantry options yall have mentioned would suit me best as the uses of this squad would be:
Spread them out to thwart drop pod assault on my armor. Advance them in front of my main assault to give open ground cover saves. Use them to tarpit an enemy CC unit until I can deal with it. Sit them back to camp a backfield objective. Put them on the gunline against charging horde armies. Or send them on a mad dash at some out of the way/lightly held objective (most likely with support, though perhaps without if the situation demands it).

Basically, flexible expendable infantry, that can, with some luck and orders, potentially toss 30+ shots on some unit and make them roll a ton of cover saves and can otherwise be used like cheap, off brand, duct tape to get things done the dirty way.

Like I said before I fully plan on getting basilisks and LRBT's down the road, but for now I want to have an idea what to keep an eye out for in case I see a screaming deal on ebay or something.

How you're describing using them is exactly how you should. If you are worried about $ cost though, 25+ infantry models will cost more than one Russ.

Give the Battleforce box a good look. Even if you don't use the Sentinel, it's usually still cheaper than the other boxes. Add an extra command squad to cover CCS and PCS, and whatever heavy support you want.

The best use of Guard allies is that they can take squadrons in a single FOC slot. That means potentially three Vendettas, three Russes, three Basilisks... Platoons can work the same way, giving you gobs of backfield scoring options.

And get Marbo. Always get Marbo.

UltraTacSgt wrote:

Advance them in front of my main assault to give open ground cover saves. Use them to tarpit an enemy CC unit until I can deal with it. Or send them on a mad dash at some out of the way/lightly held objective (most likely with support, though perhaps without if the situation demands it).

Your idea for uses are good, except for these three. Guard infantry out of cover get torn up like wet paper towels; same can be said for guard in CC. Without some means of transportation, the only objective guard infantry will be taking are the ones they have been sitting on in your deployment zone all game.

Which is because....

flexible expendable infantry

Flexible and expendable are almost always mutually exclusive in 40k.

Except IG, which are flexible and expendable. They can adapt to many different tactics and play styles. They are expendable. Allied MEQ can cover their weaknesses.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Except IG, which are flexible and expendable. They can adapt to many different tactics and play styles. They are expendable. Allied MEQ can cover their weaknesses.

IG Codex is flexible. Our units are not.

If you have a vet squad, you'll set it up to do one job. If you have a platoon, its going to have one job. Stormtroopers; one job.

Our infantry are not flexible on the battlefield. Not like MEQ lists, ie. Grey Knights, SW, etc.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Except IG, which are flexible and expendable. They can adapt to many different tactics and play styles. They are expendable. Allied MEQ can cover their weaknesses.

IG Codex is flexible. Our units are not.

If you have a vet squad, you'll set it up to do one job. If you have a platoon, its going to have one job. Stormtroopers; one job.

Our infantry are not flexible on the battlefield. Not like MEQ lists, ie. Grey Knights, SW, etc.

That's the real trick there. Each unit is highly flexible in the Codex, but for effective use you have to single out a specific role or function and equip accordingly. Takes a good deal more forethought than MEQ, but when done well they are devastating. That's part of what makes them great Marine allies; Marines are the multitool, IG are the hammer. Figure out your proverbial nail and equip them accordingly.

UltraTacSgt wrote:
How could I add an allied IG attachment to my C:SM that would be relatively cheap both points-wise and in real dollars. I intend on having rifleman dreads, typhoons, and vindicators along with other standard Marine fare, so I'm not looking for IG armor. I like the idea of having a big, shooting focused guardsman infantry squad to either charge at a lightly held, out of the way objective or advance as a meat-shield.

Maybe a CCS, PCS, and 2-4 infantry platoons or something like that.

So can a shooty IG infantry attachment be made in the 200-400 point range? Are shooty IG infantry squads even effective enough to be worth taking?

To begin with I would take:

HQ: Company Command Squad: HWT: LC (80 pts)

Troops: Platoon (160 pts)
- Platoon Command Squad: 4x flamer
- Platoon Squad: HWT: AC
- Platoon Squad: HWT: AC

Fortification: ADL with Icarus Cannon (85 pts)

Total: 325 pts

Stick the CCS behind the ADL and have either the CC or a veteran man the Icarus Cannon. This way you get: 2 BS 4, STR 9, AP 2, AT/AA shots from behind very decent cover (4+). Blob the two Platoon Squads so that you can use orders on them effectively and so they last longer. PCS is equipped for horde/emergencies.

If you have riflemen dreads, typhoons and vindicators then I don't think you need more AT from your IG-detachment than this. What wanted when I allied IG to my SM I wanted the blast template of the LRBT and a few small blobs to protect it and the fire-base with easy, cheap mass volume of fire - no more no less. You can always upgrade as you go. Check out my list if you want, you can find it on my profile.

If I was willing to paint a blob, I would run Calgar in a blob. He allows all your Marine units to pass or fail Morale and allows your blob to do the same thing. And unlike Fearless, they can still go to ground if needed.

 Gornall wrote:
If I was willing to paint a blob, I would run Calgar in a blob. He allows all your Marine units to pass or fail Morale and allows your blob to do the same thing.

Not according to the FAQ.

I am getting the impression that shooty IG infantry blobs aren't very effective unless I put them on a gunline or load them up into chimeras to advance. Also, looking on Ebay, it is surprisingly cheaper to get LRBT's than large numbers of guardsmen. If I am camping in the backfield I'd rather be dropping str8 ap3 blasts behind AV14 than waiting for an enemy to get within lasgun range.

Would this setup be effective?
CCS - 50pts min
Vet Squad - 70pts min
LRBT - 150pts (seems it doesn't need sponsons with the new ordinance thing making them shoot snap shots)

I could get 15 guardsmen and a russ for maybe 50 bucks w/ good deals on ebay and its only 270pts base. Seems like all solid units that I could use as I expand my IG collection as well; and it would save me painting up 40 guardsmen.

I would use the CCS/Vets to camp my home objective and defend my armor. Would I want to give them special weapons or keep them dirt cheap?

Thoughts?

If you're only taking one tank for your backfield, I highly recommend a Manticore. You lose a little AP, but get S10 and 1d3 large blasts. If not that, a Medusa is pretty sweet.

 plus1jeremy wrote:
If you're only taking one tank for your backfield, I highly recommend a Manticore. You lose a little AP, but get S10 and 1d3 large blasts. If not that, a Medusa is pretty sweet.

This.

The LRBT is too "jack of all trades" in terms of STR and AP.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 plus1jeremy wrote:
If you're only taking one tank for your backfield, I highly recommend a Manticore. You lose a little AP, but get S10 and 1d3 large blasts. If not that, a Medusa is pretty sweet.

This.

The LRBT is too "jack of all trades" in terms of STR and AP.

I second that, which is why I still recommend an Armored Battlegroup ally. I usually ally in an Exterminator HQ (BS4 with 13 shots yes please), and Demolishers for troops to push with my terminators. The best LR variant will depend on what list you already have as you will have plenty of options.

CCS are pretty much worthless since you have nobody to issue orders to. It just turns into a 50+ point heavy weapon kill point. They are only useful issuing orders (which you wont be) or mounted in a Chimera with special weapons (since all the men in the squad have BS4). Vets also are nothing but objective holders (easy to kill ones at that) if they aren't armed and in a Chimera. But of course, mounting both squads will run you a lot more points than you're willing to spend it seems which again brings me back to Armored Battlegroup.

Based on what you had before, here's what I'd suggest.

CCS - x4 meltaguns, Chimera - 145pts
Veteran Squad - x3 meltaguns - 100pts
Vendetta - 130pts (if you have plenty of anti-armor, swap for Valkyrie w/rocket pods for the same points)
Manticore - 160pts
Marbo - 65pts

Total - 600 points

Guard are just about worthless without special weapons. Melta is a bit cheaper, but if you're loaded up on anti-armor use plasma guns instead. The Manticore will wreck vehicles, MEQ and hordes with equal impunity.

Veterans ride in the Vendetta and take an objective in turn 5. CCS can go hunting in the Chimera (keep it in cover or it will die). Marbo will kill double his points as soon as he shows up. Always take Marbo.

If you really need to trim points, drop the Vendetta and use the Vets as a backfield scoring unit in cover, and swap them to plasma guns and a heavy weapon (I suggest an autocannon).

The biggest thing about Guard allies is, their biggest asset is their vehicles. If you aren't using at least two (not counting Chimeras), they might not be worth it. If you only take one tank, maybe save your points and just get a Predator or Razorback.

I don't know how I missed the medusa and manticore when I looked through the codex. Str 10 ordinance large blasts is pretty awesome regardless of AP and that medusa is like a Vindicator w/ better range. The AV12 is a bit weak, but I guess that would be mitigated by having them safely on/near the back of the board. I'll definitely have to give them consideration either way.

What is the deal with the Armored Battlegroup option? Is that a forge world thing? I like the Cadian infantry models but with what everyone is saying in this thread it seems like they just aren't going to be as effective for the points as adding another Tac Marine squad unless I want to invest in chimeras for them, and even that might not make them worth it. I love the idea of having an IG artillery battery type setup though, so would a vet squad and a cheap HQ to guard a few artillery pieces be a total point sink? (the troops not the armor)

UltraTacSgt wrote:

What is the deal with the Armored Battlegroup option? Is that a forge world thing? I like the Cadian infantry models but with what everyone is saying in this thread it seems like they just aren't going to be as effective for the points as adding another Tac Marine squad unless I want to invest in chimeras for them, and even that might not make them worth it. I love the idea of having an IG artillery battery type setup though, so would a vet squad and a cheap HQ to guard a few artillery pieces be a total point sink? (the troops not the armor)

The Armored Battlegroup is a FW thing, but GW did have an "Armored Company" years ago. You can definitely use the Cadian Shock Troops as troops, but they will be in a Chimera making them a cheap scoring unit with a heavy weapon. Besides, most AT guns will be focusing on your LRs or Artillery in cover, then on your Chimeras. The only way to take a ton of troops effectively is to use a blob which doesn't always work with C:SM lists. If you go the IG codex route you will spend a fair amount of points on your cheap HQ and Vet squad. If you don't they are a waste of points altogether as they would be useless. The artillery (which can be acquired through an ABG ally) will almost always help you as a SM player.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Gornall wrote:
If I was willing to paint a blob, I would run Calgar in a blob. He allows all your Marine units to pass or fail Morale and allows your blob to do the same thing.

Not according to the FAQ.

Hmmm... I didn't think the FAQ affected the unit he was actually in... just other units trying to use the same ability.