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What role do these guys have in the game? Are they just a one shot CC unit or can they be used for more?

They seem to be beefier assault terminators, trading high str thunderhammers for better toughness (shield wall) and weapon skill.

Don't forget their precision strikes & increased nastiness vs csm units; good for traitor character assassination.

 McGibs wrote:
They seem to be beefier assault terminators, trading high str thunderhammers for better toughness (shield wall) and weapon skill.

Well, they're only AP2 for one round. Sucks if they're in combat with a bunch of 2+ dudes and don't kill them all in that one round.

MadmanMSU wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
They seem to be beefier assault terminators, trading high str thunderhammers for better toughness (shield wall) and weapon skill.

Well, they're only AP2 for one round. Sucks if they're in combat with a bunch of 2+ dudes and don't kill them all in that one round.

They will actually score more wounds vs Vanilla TH&SS termies than the TH&SS termies will do in turn to the Knights even when the Maces are powered down. That said I think they are much less flexible than normal (and scoring) DWs so I doubt they will see much use.

If I play DA, I will use their models as DW TH&SS... mainly because the models rule and the box comes with 4 maces but only 1 TH.

But yeah, they are pretty good, but the flexibility and scoring DW are better.

If I play DA, I will use their models as DW TH&SS... mainly because the models rule

Agreed, but maybe for more usefulness is to use them as bodyguard for HQ? They could handle horde units with thier high toughness and maces make short work of orks, eldar, guard right?

The +1T makes them a great bodyguard for an IC, none of which you'll note have Eternal Warrior. Otherwise, standard DW are better through being more versatile.

So is the squad just 5 models?

5-10 DW Knights

Nivek5150 wrote:
5-10 DW Knights

YES!
Crap now I need to by 2 more boxes!

 Super Ready wrote:
The +1T makes them a great bodyguard for an IC, none of which you'll note have Eternal Warrior. Otherwise, standard DW are better through being more versatile.

Someone, Sammael if I remember correctly, still has an Adamantine Mantle which grants Eternal Warrior. So exactly 1 HQ has Eternal Warrior.

Now I'm picturing a group of Deathwing Knights trying to keep up with Sammael in a jetbike and how amusing and impractical that would be hehe

Nivek5150 wrote:
Now I'm picturing a group of Deathwing Knights trying to keep up with Sammael in a jetbike and how amusing and impractical that would be hehe

Why? All Sammy has to do is not put it past 1st gear or whatever

and he has a plasma cannon, DW has plasma cannons... i'm seeing a pattern here. He also has the only CC in the book at that AP and strikes at initiative.

Not true on the AP/Initiative. The Halberd of Caliban. Str +2 AP 2 strikes at initiative. The Maces of Absolution in Smite mode, Str +6 AP 2 strike at initiative.

Missed the Halberd, thought it was ap3, ap2 vs chaos.
The mace is one use only with the entire squad so it's really not TOO bad if you split up your forces well.

People are discounting the power maces too early. DWK are tough customers and can throw out a ton of wounds easily, even vs other Terminators (who have an invul anyway so AP2 wouldn't mean all that much). The only major drawback of DWK is that they can't score, which can be crippling in a super-elite DW force.

Deathwing Knights are going to be a great support/shock troop. You want them to get stuck in and they will be very hard to get rid of. This can let your more flexible units score. Also, just because they can't score doesn't mean they can't contest an objective, effectively denying your opponent a point, putting you ahead.

Putting these guys up against hordes of dudes is going to be very useful too. Orks, nids, Dark Eldar etc are all going to struggle immensely with these guys as they will be str6 AP4 I4, WS5 and then T4/5 with a 2+ 3++. even big critters with worse than a 3+ save will fold easily as these guys will be wounding with lots of attacks. And if you need that extra oomph, save that str 10 ap2 Initiative 4 attack to take down some big nasties like Hive Tyrants etc. And forget it if you are a power armored CSM. You are going to HATE these guys (ap3 vs CSM).

I think these guys will see a lot of play despite being less flexible. They are more of a two-trick pony than a one-trick, but they aren't as flexible as combined-arms DW squads. Two tricks being anti-horde then briefly anti EVERYTHING and also being very hard to destroy. For 235 pts they aren't too badly priced either, as 5 TH/SS is 245 I believe?

w/e just my thoughts on em. Regardless, their models look great!

-VardenV2

WS5, S6 AP4

vs MEQ: .66*.83*.33*2 = .36

WS4, S4 AP3

vs MEQ: .5*.5*2= .5

WS4, S8 AP2

vs MEQ: .5*.83*2= .83

4 DW Knights + Knight Master vs MEQ = (.36*4)+(1.64) = 3.08 MEQs per turn

5 Power Swords vs MEQ = .5*.5*10 = 2.5 MEQs per turn

4 Power Fists vs MEQ (assuming one dead at I4) = (.5)*.83*2*4 = 3.32

e.g., DW Knights slightly outperform Power Swords against MEQs. Against everything else, they will considerably outperform Power Swords. They are competitive in their normal mode to Power Fists although inferior against both MEQs and TEQs. Their impact hits will give them a considerable advantage over Power Swords on the charge.

A 5 man unit of PF/SB or TH/SS Terminators will slightly defeat them in combat if they don't use smite.

4 DW Knights + Knight Master vs 5 TH/SS

Knights .66*.83*.16*11 = .96

TH/SS .5*.83*.33*2*4 = 1.09

Knights w/ Smite vs TH/SS .66*.83*.33*11 = 1.98
Knights w/ Smite vs PF/SB .66*.83*.66*11 = 3.97

I would say they're better point for point than TH/SS when used carefully.

Well, unless they're attacking a TH/SS, AP2 does mean making a terminator make a save with a 66% chance of failure instead of a 16.6% chance of failure.

I think the DWK will work best against hordes. A mob trying to tarpit you is going to get pretty well annihilated against a group DWK with 5 WS, 5 T and a 2+/3++ and hitting back with 2 attacks(3 for sgt) at +2 strength striking at initiative. And if you manage to get the charge off instead of waiting to be tarpitted, you've got Hammer of Wrath added in as well.

Nivek5150 wrote:
I think the DWK will work best against hordes. A mob trying to tarpit you is going to get pretty well annihilated against a group DWK with 5 WS, 5 T and a 2+/3++ and hitting back with 2 attacks(3 for sgt) at +2 strength striking at initiative. And if you manage to get the charge off instead of waiting to be tarpitted, you've got Hammer of Wrath added in as well.

5 DWK vs 20 Ork Boyz

(.66*.83*11) = 6 Ork Boyz

(.5*.33*.16*2*14) = .73 Knights

HOW = 2 dead Boyz
Charge bonus on DWK = 6.57+2.19=8.76

or ~ 10.76 Boyz dead before they get to strike. This means you could on average strip fearless of a 20 man unit of Boyz before blows are struck, or ~3 turns to strip Fearless off a 30 man unit.

Here is the real kicker that makes them next to impossible to actually kill. Giving them the FNP banner... You can DS 20 Termies in front of the enemy all with FNP. using DWA so they both come in... drop the DW squad first so you know where they will land, then the DWKs that won't scatter thanks to the character. run the knights 2 to 1 to b2b with a majority of DW termies and fire with the DW termis.

This leaves both squads with majority T5, the CC termies in front ready to move and charge next turn, and both squads with FNP...

How do you plan on dealing with that? that is equivilent to almost a 2+ invul. give the DW squad 2 or3 TH&SS termies and they are also almost a 2+ invul at T5... Vindi good, but what else?? S10, AP2 large blast good, but what else?

Death Star, yeah... good one, yeah...

Deathwing Knights standing next to regular Deathwing do not give the regular Deathwing +1 toughness.

Do you have the codex in front of you? I don't know the page number (don't look at the reference section rule but in the army entry and unit description for the rule) off the top of my head but as it was quoted elsewhere is that it actually says if a models with the inner circle special rule is in b2b contact with at least 2 models with this rule, the model gets +1T...

Now the reference section contradicts this but it wasn't fixed in the FAQ. If you have the DA codex and can confirm the opposite way please let me know and i'll tell the guys over in the the rules section.

 jegsar wrote:
Here is the real kicker that makes them next to impossible to actually kill. Giving them the FNP banner... You can DS 20 Termies in front of the enemy all with FNP. using DWA so they both come in... drop the DW squad first so you know where they will land, then the DWKs that won't scatter thanks to the character. run the knights 2 to 1 to b2b with a majority of DW termies and fire with the DW termis.

This leaves both squads with majority T5, the CC termies in front ready to move and charge next turn, and both squads with FNP...

How do you plan on dealing with that? that is equivilent to almost a 2+ invul. give the DW squad 2 or3 TH&SS termies and they are also almost a 2+ invul at T5... Vindi good, but what else?? S10, AP2 large blast good, but what else?

Death Star, yeah... good one, yeah...

About them not scattering: The first squad wouldnt scatter because im assuming youre putting Belial in there. But The DWK would scatter since the teleport homer works only if "it is on the table at the start of the turn". Since it came in from reserves, it dosent count as the start of the turn right?

No, his plan is to land the "lone" DW regulars first and let them scatter, then drop the DWK with attached Belial close-by for added awesomeness

OH ok I see

TanKoL wrote:
No, his plan is to land the "lone" DW regulars first and let them scatter, then drop the DWK with attached Belial close-by for added awesomeness

Got it right! Now how do non DA counter this?? Assuming we don't have a vindicate assassin with shield breaker rounds manning a Icarus Lascannon.

The same way you normally massed deep striking terminators, throw massed shooting at it.