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I played my DW Knights for the first time today. They did well. I never even used God mode. My opponent was playing a salvo list. The knights made it into combat with his gun line and were able to roll down the entire side losing only a single model before the end of the game. The reason I never used God mode was because I wanted them to stay in combat during my opponents turn. They were aided by a prescience terminator librarian. Personally I don't understand the hatred of the power mauls they are actually better in every situation than a power sword accept against 3+ sv. And against a 3+ save they are only marginally worse.

I tried these guys in the local tournament here in Santa Clara today and they fared decently but not spectacular by any means. I paired 5 Knights with Belial/Ezekiel in a LRC with a Techmarine to keep the thing going. Ezekiel cast Prescience on the squad with another div power in each game.

First game was againt a Tyranid player who cast Endurance on his Tervigon to boost him to T9! I used smite mode with the 5 maces and killed him easily (6 wounds!) without the Flail Sergent, Belial or Ezekiel needing to lift a finger. After this though during the next turn they were not able to hurt the next Turvigon and got tar-pitted between him and the Hive Tyrant.

Second game was against another Dark Angel pure Deathwing list and the Knights used Smite again on the first 5 man deathwing squad - same results - killed all of them easily. Next turn though the second squad of deathwing (2TH/SS) got them down to one man but also were down to 1 left with Belial and Ezekiel hammering them.

Last game was against Grey nights and once again, they easily killed the Dreadknight they came into contact with then since it was the relic mission struggled to get past a bunch of roadblocks to assault the last squad.

Overall these guys are expensive, they don't score, their Admantium Will and Fear ability doesnt go off much as you want to use them for MC and Terminator foes. They are incredible with the first smite - but after that fall to AP4 with the sergent on AP3 so things go downhill very fast. The toughness boost is nice though and they are intimidating with the smite an almost guaranteed kill (especially with Prescience) the first thing they touch!

I think I'll be using a small squad of these in my green wing list along with Ezekiel. I'm dumping the over priced Belial and his over priced Deathwing for more bodies - tacticals and devastators. These Knights are the only luxury item I'm keeping primarily for their resiliance and smite attacks.

Things would go downhill after the Smite, but you just described taking down a Terminator squad in one game (roughly equal points cost to a DWK), a Tervigon (probably pretty expensive, lols IDK), and a Dreadknight (pretty expensive depending on wargear) with Smite.

And after that, each model still has WS5 and S6, which in and of itself is brutal. You can still punch vehicles in the ass, hit Marines and Termies and stuff really hard in the face, and smash everything else into paste. On top of that you're talking about AP3/AP2 against CSM. So the only armies where the Termies are going to suffer after blowing their Smitey load would be loyalist Marines, and even then, you've still got an AP3 A3 Sarge and as you said, a nasty I5 AP3 IC (two w/ Ezekiel).

That is still a very effective and robust unit that could serve you in a general configuration.

But I think if you ran the points cost just in terms of the damage caused by Smite, it's probably a wash compared if they were walking around with AP3 all the time. And technically if you were using Belial you could just Deep Strike them with no scatter and spare the Land Raider tax. Esp. considering they're already WS5, which is really all you need.

That's what gets me though is with the CSM +1 AP rule you're only talking about Black Templar, SoB, Vanilla Marines, BA, GK, DA and SW where you would even notice the AP4. It's only an issue ~1/2 the time.

I mean, people take Power Mauls, which I think personally are useless. And they take Autocannons all day long. The reality is that DWK are causing a large number of wounds in combat against any armor saves.

 TedNugent wrote:
Things would go downhill after the Smite, but you just described taking down a Terminator squad in one game (roughly equal points cost to a DWK), a Tervigon (probably pretty expensive, lols IDK), and a Dreadknight (pretty expensive depending on wargear) with Smite.

And after that, each model still has WS5 and S6, which in and of itself is brutal. You can still punch vehicles in the ass, hit Marines and Termies and stuff really hard in the face, and smash everything else into paste. On top of that you're talking about AP3/AP2 against CSM. So the only armies where the Termies are going to suffer after blowing their Smitey load would be loyalist Marines, and even then, you've still got an AP3 A3 Sarge and as you said, a nasty I5 AP3 IC (two w/ Ezekiel).

That is still a very effective and robust unit that could serve you in a general configuration.

I think you mean AP3/AP4, not AP3/AP3. I4 for the Knights - not I5 unfortunately like Ezekiel (I wish!). For the record, Ezekiel himself against the targets I encountered - Terminators, Tervigons and DreadKnight did little to nothing with his AP3 sword.

With smite being uber powerful (give some credit to prescience with Ezekiel here) I'd say you're right that these 5 models, while very pricey, are worth the tax if you can get smite off on a termie or expensive squad and will make their points back. I was impressed (and relieved!) that I could curb stomp that T9 Tervigon, the 5 Deathwing and the GW DreadKnight without them even swinging once in my three games.

I'm planning on running a full squad of ten with Belial and maybe a Termie Libby. On turn one I use Belial's Tactical Precision and land right in front of the enemy and just dare him to wipe them out.

Hmm, first post in a long time.

1. Deathwing knights synergize well with other units. Feel no pain banner, ways to increase cover saves, Chaplain rerolls,etc. Yes, basic deathwing can do the same and are scoring, but..

2. Deathwing knights, with fearless and potentially toughness 5, stormshields, and feel no pain are a tarpit unit. When I first thought about it, I thought, "Why wouldn't you always use the one shot strength 10 move on the first turn?"

After I thought about it, I figured it out. You never want to wipe out a unit on the turn you charge, especially since deathwing knights don't have guns. I have this problem with thunderhammer stormwhield terminators that I don't with deathwing knights. I once said that a cheap completely invincible unit in hth that can't do any damage has a use because of objectives, tarpitting, and denial. With a controllable out, this is even better. It's an extremely flexible unit, but requires some thought to use well, as mismanagement can backfire badly.

It is very much a dark angel type of unit. Like with many things in Codex: Dark Angels, deathwing knight's special trick is that it can do similar damage compared to other types of marine units (stormshield thunderhammer), but can take some effort to remove off the table if the player is clever; consequently many dark angel units cost more points. I guess it's like reverse combat tactics:

"I choose to fail my leadership test". vs. "I choose to not win this combat."

DKW in a spartan assault transport with a chaplain in terminator armour. Wahey!

 scuddman wrote:

"I choose to fail my leadership test". vs. "I choose to not win this combat."

This is a great point. I've not played with or against DW Knights, but from what I've been reading this is what's so awesome about them. They can get stuck in with big beefy squads and slowly take them down, whilst also discouraging a counter charge from something tough.

Or they can jump into combat with something hard to kill, splat it, then move on.

I'm a fan of mauls in general though. They're better than ap3 swords, except against marines. Pretty simple, don't charge marines unless you have uber-mode available. Although even if you did, you'd probably kill them after a couple of turns.

Great post, scuddman.

Ministry I don't get the complaints sounds like in every game the knights paid for themselves plus. Belial is way over costed now. Solid DW armies are done, but its ok, I should probably play some green in my DA list anyhow.


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 scuddman wrote:
Hmm, first post in a long time.

1. Deathwing knights synergize well with other units. Feel no pain banner, ways to increase cover saves, Chaplain rerolls,etc. Yes, basic deathwing can do the same and are scoring, but..

2. Deathwing knights, with fearless and potentially toughness 5, stormshields, and feel no pain are a tarpit unit. When I first thought about it, I thought, "Why wouldn't you always use the one shot strength 10 move on the first turn?"

After I thought about it, I figured it out. You never want to wipe out a unit on the turn you charge, especially since deathwing knights don't have guns. I have this problem with thunderhammer stormwhield terminators that I don't with deathwing knights. I once said that a cheap completely invincible unit in hth that can't do any damage has a use because of objectives, tarpitting, and denial. With a controllable out, this is even better. It's an extremely flexible unit, but requires some thought to use well, as mismanagement can backfire badly.

It is very much a dark angel type of unit. Like with many things in Codex: Dark Angels, deathwing knight's special trick is that it can do similar damage compared to other types of marine units (stormshield thunderhammer), but can take some effort to remove off the table if the player is clever; consequently many dark angel units cost more points. I guess it's like reverse combat tactics:

"I choose to fail my leadership test". vs. "I choose to not win this combat."

Yep like I said in my post, I didn't even use God mode in my first game with them, I needed them to hide in combat. Also as long as you get the charge you can usually keep your t5.


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 Doctadeth wrote:
DKW in a spartan assault transport with a chaplain in terminator armour. Wahey!

Chaplins are a silly add to DWK's. The DWK is already fearless. Instead get a Prescience libby in term armor. 95 points with force weapon. And he can extend prescience outside this squad if he wants.


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 Griddlelol wrote:

 scuddman wrote:

"I choose to fail my leadership test". vs. "I choose to not win this combat."

This is a great point. I've not played with or against DW Knights, but from what I've been reading this is what's so awesome about them. They can get stuck in with big beefy squads and slowly take them down, whilst also discouraging a counter charge from something tough.

Or they can jump into combat with something hard to kill, splat it, then move on.

I'm a fan of mauls in general though. They're better than ap3 swords, except against marines. Pretty simple, don't charge marines unless you have uber-mode available. Although even if you did, you'd probably kill them after a couple of turns.

5 DWK kill ten marines in non-god mode in 2-3 turns. Remember knight captain is AP3, S6 all the time.

Smite mode can (IIRC) be used on your opponent's turn as well, so it can be an effective deterrent against many of the squads that actually could handle the Deathwing Knights.

tgf wrote:
Ministry I don't get the complaints sounds like in every game the knights paid for themselves plus. Belial is way over costed now. Solid DW armies are done, but its ok, I should probably play some green in my DA list anyhow.

Yeah, my complaints are that Belial and DW just dont field enough bodies to be competitive in tournaments. Against some lists they can work, but as a come all type list they aren't going to do well vs most armies in competition. Just frustrating that they have a chance to make them viable and GW chooses to keep the DW overcosted.

I think I'm going to run a regular Libby in Term with my DWK for the prescience and go 4 full tactical squads in place of Belial and another DW Term squad. They can always look out sir! for the libby to keep him cheap - unless he is challenged. So use that DWK sergent to issue when you hit MC or other Terminators with AP2 weapons!

Belial at his price is too high, since he doesn't really do much other than no scatter. However, no scatter can be game winning versus some setups, so he is not shelved completely.

The dw knights are, in my opinion, much stronger than deathwing normal termies. Ws 5 makes a big difference in combat, as there are more ws9 guys out there so you don't hit on 5s. Also, since toughness is so important versus small arms, t5 helps alot versus non blast weapons. Finally, with a level 2 Libby and adamantine will, you get a 3+ deny the witch on that unit so a few enfeebles don't immediately demolish you.

DevianID wrote:
Belial at his price is too high, since he doesn't really do much other than no scatter. However, no scatter can be game winning versus some setups, so he is not shelved completely.

The dw knights are, in my opinion, much stronger than deathwing normal termies. Ws 5 makes a big difference in combat, as there are more ws9 guys out there so you don't hit on 5s. Also, since toughness is so important versus small arms, t5 helps alot versus non blast weapons. Finally, with a level 2 Libby and adamantine will, you get a 3+ deny the witch on that unit so a few enfeebles don't immediately demolish you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you would only get a 3+ Deny the Witch, if your libby was a higher mastery level than the one trying to cast his powers on you.

True, you only get deny the witch versus level 1 psykers on a 3+, but those are the ones that are likely to be taken in numbers. Versus level 2+ it's a 4+ deny roll.

 Ministry wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Deathwing Knights suffer from a lack of shooting I think. A tervigon spam army wouldn't have a problem dealing with them through poison and numbers, plus enfeeble if I feel the need.

This is a good reason to include Ezekiel in with Belial

If you throw in a Perfidious Relic as well as Ezekiel, you'll have a 3+ Deny The Witch against most targets!

You lose deepstrike and dwa with Ezekiel.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I'm planning on running a full squad of ten with Belial and maybe a Termie Libby. On turn one I use Belial's Tactical Precision and land right in front of the enemy and just dare him to wipe them out.

Sorry, im still new, i know you can't assault out of deep strike, but can you out of deathwing assault?

 Pwn'd You wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I'm planning on running a full squad of ten with Belial and maybe a Termie Libby. On turn one I use Belial's Tactical Precision and land right in front of the enemy and just dare him to wipe them out.

Sorry, im still new, i know you can't assault out of deep strike, but can you out of deathwing assault?

No. He's just saying he puts them right up in his opponents face. Basically he puts them there and says "Wipe them out or they turn you to paste next turn."

My opinion is, Deathwing Knights aren't meant to be versatile. They're meant to be a killy unit against Chaos Lords, CSM Daemon Prince and such (oh... and Berserkers). Bane Of Traitor makes them well worth their 235pts, especially on greenwing lists (where their melee power auguments regular Spess Mehreens, and regular Deathwing Terminators aren't scoring either. Other than that they are (against CSM) just plain better than THSS termies in almost everything and are worthwile choice also in deathwing-centric lists.

Chaos have some very killy hand-to-hand units (and exceptionally killy artefacts, as Axe of Blind Fury, Murder Sword and others) and you don't want any of this things near your tactical squads or warlord. That's another reason to field our knights: to protect our assets from being assaulted. Our Tactical Marines don't have smurfy Combat Tactics, and can't even retreat, so we REALLY don't want them to be locked in close combat, as they're great at shooting and not hth fighting.

maciek wrote:
My opinion is, Deathwing Knights aren't meant to be versatile. They're meant to be a killy unit against Chaos Lords, CSM Daemon Prince and such (oh... and Berserkers). Bane Of Traitor makes them well worth their 235pts, especially on greenwing lists (where their melee power auguments regular Spess Mehreens, and regular Deathwing Terminators aren't scoring either. Other than that they are (against CSM) just plain better than THSS termies in almost everything and are worthwile choice also in deathwing-centric lists.

Chaos have some very killy hand-to-hand units (and exceptionally killy artefacts, as Axe of Blind Fury, Murder Sword and others) and you don't want any of this things near your tactical squads or warlord. That's another reason to field our knights: to protect our assets from being assaulted. Our Tactical Marines don't have smurfy Combat Tactics, and can't even retreat, so we REALLY don't want them to be locked in close combat, as they're great at shooting and not hth fighting.

Yes, but do you think it's worth fielding that unit, in a TAC list? It excels against Chaos, but that's one Army.

Speaking of, I have a battle against the new DA tomorrow, I'm really excited for it. My chaos is just itchin!

TAC as take all comers? I think, no. They are not versatile enough. "Smite Mode" of their weapons works once in a game, and most races either don't even have units worth being engaged this way, or have too many of such units. So not at all.

My models will probably have glued left arms with shields, while right arms will be magnetized (mace or hammer).

I'm really excited for it. My chaos is just itchin!

I perfectly understand! CSM are made for killing loyalist Marines, DA are made for killing Chaos ;-) Many possibilities. I like surprises.

While you won't always face units which don't have big nastys that you'd want to use smite mode on it is an effective out from combat. I beleive I read it in this thread or another where it was described as "I choose to win combat" button with the idea that you can decide to be in combat as long as you want until you are required else where. So you smite on your enemies turn and move to where they are needed next.

At the very least you can squash one big baddie and hopefully tie up a second if it exists.

I find my DWK fit better in my green lists than my bone lists. In my bone lists they don't really shine since damn near everyone has a fist or hammer.

Wait, a decent beatstick IC that turns Terminators into Troops and provides No Scatter for his squad is OVERPRICED at less than 200 points? Pass me the weed.

maciek wrote:

Chaos have some very killy hand-to-hand units (and exceptionally killy artefacts, as Axe of Blind Fury, Murder Sword and others) and you don't want any of this things near your tactical squads or warlord. That's another reason to field our knights: to protect our assets from being assaulted. Our Tactical Marines don't have smurfy Combat Tactics, and can't even retreat, so we REALLY don't want them to be locked in close combat, as they're great at shooting and not hth fighting.

even here, an AoBF is going to put out a ton of AP2 wounds before they get to strike. and then even with precision strikes the chaos lord can LOS them. They are very nice against CSM, but without help they arent going to really stop a CSM meat grinder.


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Really I think the problem with deathwing knights are how many things they need smite for. It can be devistating against a death star but they can be very lackluster against semisoft troops. Bikes? without smite, wound on 3+ allow 3+ save.
GH? allow 3+ save, take a ton of reroll 1 attacks back.


Either an army is going to have no units smite is worth using on or it is going to have 2 or more units that you need smite to beat.

Well, I said it already in the other thread, the Knights are a show and awe unit. Its one of the best cc units in the game, since its devastating against each unit bar Assault Termies with storm shields. In generaly, they will only need the smite attack once per game to dish out serious damage against tougher enemies.