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yeah but this cuts S4 by a third meaning I need a 3rd more shots. Also if they are crazy (like my plan) all of the termies will have FNP... this means an additional third over most termies.
That means i need to now bring 2/3rd more firepower down on them then before, Untill it's st 7+ where it's 1/3rd and S10 is the same but that iis only the Vindi... strangely enough i find myself thinking typhus, oh wait he is only T5... ok well at least i still have Abby... just 265 points cuz he is the only thing that will survive long enough with them having that smash rule.

Of course, not everyone has access to them, but S10 plates would deny them FNP and force the use of 3+ saves. Something sufficiently strong in combat with high initiative could do the same thing, but is liable to die in one turn. A combination of the two would be best, but I can't think of anarmy with access to S10 shooting and combat other thanChaos.

Anything that reduces toughness will help greatly if you can combine it with the usual mass firepower. The Elgdar power Doom would help too.

that makes them S10 Ap2 at Initiative 4...Ok fine MAYBE, MoS lord with Murder Sword... but even then after ther first round you are gonna die.
GOT IT! Allied Blood Thurster! with Unholy Might and Instant Death cuz that is good in any other situation in the game.
Though using pavne of Slaanesh to move them apart would be fun.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can't think of a way for most armies to deal with them other then crons, chaos, IG, and dumping something that allows no saves at all but that isn't much.

Mass shooting is pretty inefficient against T5 2+ w/ 5+ FNP

Bolter shot:

.66*.33*.16*.66 = .02 wounds inflicted on average

Lasgun shot:

.5*.16*.16*.66 = .008 wounds inflicted on average

Loota fire (taking 2 shots avg):

.33*.83*.16*.66*2 = .06 wounds inflicted on average

10 man Tacs w/ Bolters = .2 wounds
10 Lasguns = .08 wounds on average
10 Lootas = .58 wounds on average

You would be so vastly outpacing the points cost that you'd be killing that it wouldn't be worth it. You'd have to direct 300 points of Lootas to kill 1 model per turn.

Ork Shokk attack gun and pray to Gork, or maybe Mork, that a double 6 is roll's....unlikely, but we all know the double 6 will turn up in the tournie final

Is 5 the lucky number to field them? Too expensive to add more or even throw in a LR?

530pts for them in a land raider redeemer. So, kinda

 jegsar wrote:

TanKoL wrote:
No, his plan is to land the "lone" DW regulars first and let them scatter, then drop the DWK with attached Belial close-by for added awesomeness

Got it right! Now how do non DA counter this??

Well, since you've spent almost 1500 points on these 20 guys, I fire at them with 1500 points worth of guns. Then we pick up and shake hands since you are tabled.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 jegsar wrote:

TanKoL wrote:
No, his plan is to land the "lone" DW regulars first and let them scatter, then drop the DWK with attached Belial close-by for added awesomeness

Got it right! Now how do non DA counter this??

Well, since you've spent almost 1500 points on these 20 guys, I fire at them with 1500 points worth of guns. Then we pick up and shake hands since you are tabled.

It is never quite that simple, at least from my experience. I run a 13 model 1,500 point footslogging Space Wolf List and I regularly win vs. Orks [120 boys], Marines [Melta Spam], Nids [Genestealer Hordes] and Chaos Marines [Khorne and Vindicators]. It’s also a mater of getting your forces so 1,500 points of stuff won’t kill them in one volley.

 Anpu42 wrote:

It is never quite that simple, at least from my experience. I run a 13 model 1,500 point footslogging Space Wolf List and I regularly win vs. Orks [120 boys], Marines [Melta Spam], Nids [Genestealer Hordes] and Chaos Marines [Khorne and Vindicators]. It’s also a mater of getting your forces so 1,500 points of stuff won’t kill them in one volley.

Well, if you look at the situation described, he has 20 1-wound terminators all standing in b2b with each other.

Knights are a brilliant specialist unit, though not really at home in an all DW list. Love the new DA.

 Krellnus wrote:
The same way you normally massed deep striking terminators, throw massed shooting at it.

Or throw a 60 pt squad in its way as a speed bump, then prepare to unleash hell when the terminators inevitably win.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

It is never quite that simple, at least from my experience. I run a 13 model 1,500 point footslogging Space Wolf List and I regularly win vs. Orks [120 boys], Marines [Melta Spam], Nids [Genestealer Hordes] and Chaos Marines [Khorne and Vindicators]. It’s also a mater of getting your forces so 1,500 points of stuff won’t kill them in one volley.

Well, if you look at the situation described, he has 20 1-wound terminators all standing in b2b with each other.

With a 2+/3++ Save and a T5, even with lots of AP2 Pie that is still a lot of Saves to Fail. All he has to do is have a decent number survive until the next turn and then odds are the shooting will end as he will engage in close combat [most likely for the rest of the game].
It’s a High Risk=High Reward Strategy, but if you fail to take them out when they arrive, they will dominate the game as you try to deal with them.

Now here is the important point: That would be one Fun Game to Play!

 jegsar wrote:
Do you have the codex in front of you? I don't know the page number (don't look at the reference section rule but in the army entry and unit description for the rule) off the top of my head but as it was quoted elsewhere is that it actually says if a models with the inner circle special rule is in b2b contact with at least 2 models with this rule, the model gets +1T...

Now the reference section contradicts this but it wasn't fixed in the FAQ. If you have the DA codex and can confirm the opposite way please let me know and i'll tell the guys over in the the rules section.

By the Emperor.... did not see the contradiction between the army listing & reference part. I can't believe how many typos slipped into this book, luckily the digital & foreign language versions had a lot of them fixed before the FAQ came out so most issues could be resolved from that. I don't know why this wasn't FAQ'd, it clearly needs to be no matter what the rule is supposed to be. However, considering the ability is called fortress of SHIELDS, I am inclined to believe the reference section is the correct way to play it. Fluff-wise, it doesn't make any sense: a phalanx isn't exactly effective when some members don't have a shield. I know some people in YMDC will justify anything and some will keep trying to say they can give it to Inner Circle, but personally I think that's ridiculous. Another issue I have, is that Ezekiel's sword is listed as two-handed in his entry where it wasn't in the old codex. It makes zero sense to change his weapon to 2-handed, especially since they still gave him a master-crafted bolt pistol. Considering how terrible the quality control was on the book, I expect lots of issues will continue to come up for some time.

I faced deathwing knights led by Belial in a game recently. Holy cow can those things take a lot of punishment!

The entire unit of 6 termis (including Belial) deep striked with pin point accuracy right into my lines. But thankfully they can't charge in the turn they deepstrike in so I get one round of shooting at it. I had the following shoot it.

3 squads of Havocs (each squad with 3 autocannon and 1 lascannon). (I was down 1 to 3 autocannons from his shooting, but majority of all 3 havocs were intact).
3 squads of plague marine (each squad with 2 plama guns). And I rapid fired with two of the squads because they were that close.

When the smoke cleared, Belial and 1 guy (or was it 2?) still stood there. With no other alternative, I charged a massive blob of plague zombies into them. Luckily, because they had been wittled down, it was enough to tarpit them for the rest of the game. But those two models still took out on average 5 zombies every turn. If the whole squad was intact, I think they would probably have chewed through the entire zombie blob within two to three assault phases.

Their weakness is that the turn they come in, they can't do much, so you get one complete round of shooting at them. But after that, if they are not dead, or tarpitted or charged by you, then they are going to do a ton of hurt!

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I faced deathwing knights led by Belial in a game recently. Holy cow can those things take a lot of punishment!

The entire unit of 6 termis (including Belial) deep striked with pin point accuracy right into my lines. But thankfully they can't charge in the turn they deepstrike in so I get one round of shooting at it. I had the following shoot it.

3 squads of Havocs (each squad with 3 autocannon and 1 lascannon). (I was down 1 to 3 autocannons from his shooting, but majority of all 3 havocs were intact).
3 squads of plague marine (each squad with 2 plama guns). And I rapid fired with two of the squads because they were that close.

When the smoke cleared, Belial and 1 guy (or was it 2?) still stood there. With no other alternative, I charged a massive blob of plague zombies into them. Luckily, because they had been wittled down, it was enough to tarpit them for the rest of the game. But those two models still took out on average 5 zombies every turn. If the whole squad was intact, I think they would probably have chewed through the entire zombie blob within two to three assault phases.

Their weakness is that the turn they come in, they can't do much, so you get one complete round of shooting at them. But after that, if they are not dead, or tarpitted or charged by you, then they are going to do a ton of hurt!

I think the best thing for this strategy is to have multiple DW units deep strike with them in the same turn. It forces your enemy to focus them down, leaving the rest of the terminators intact to shoot you to their heart's content. In addition, all those deep striking terminators for back up get twin-linked weapons, which probably could have thinned YOUR ranks when you got to shoot back. It's a pretty big risk to drop your guys so close to the enemy but can be a game-winning attack as well. If you have a deathwing command squad nearby with a banner giving them +1 attack then it's just utterly gross. around 20 WS5 Str 6 ap4 (or str 10 ap2!) on the charge... utter nonsense. They could easily wipe entire squads in one turn if left unmolested.

The alternative is to use them, with a chaplain (re-roll hits) in a Land Raider Crusader. Basically they drive around in their own shooting vehicle and then can charge out of the vehicle with re-rolls to hit and T5... pretty nasty. Of course, this is a massive deathstar unit and everything and its mom and its dog will fire at it if possible. It's probably a great linebreaker unit too.

 TedNugent wrote:
Mass shooting is pretty inefficient against T5 2+ w/ 5+ FNP

Bolter shot:

.66*.33*.16*.66 = .02 wounds inflicted on average

Lasgun shot:

.5*.16*.16*.66 = .008 wounds inflicted on average

Loota fire (taking 2 shots avg):

.33*.83*.16*.66*2 = .06 wounds inflicted on average

10 man Tacs w/ Bolters = .2 wounds
10 Lasguns = .08 wounds on average
10 Lootas = .58 wounds on average

You would be so vastly outpacing the points cost that you'd be killing that it wouldn't be worth it. You'd have to direct 300 points of Lootas to kill 1 model per turn.

This right here illustrates their potential more then anything. Their numbers against S9 or worse big guns are similiarlry impressive as they keep both the 3++ and FNP (assuming T5 from IC):

Plasma/Laz (basically anything S7-9, AP 2):
8(2÷3)(5÷6)(1÷3)(2÷3)=.988 So roughly 8 plasma shots per base.

Even S10 AP2 isn't great, though it does bypass FNP:
6(2÷3)(5÷6)(1÷3)=1.11 Pretty impressive.

Of course, there is also the fact that they are quite adapt at killing pretty much anything in CC.

These guys are no joke. I predict they will get more and more popular as time goes on.

While the knights are really good, they have a huge weakness to blast weapons if they want toughness 5. Considering that people who take blast weapons tend to take a lot of them, this issue escalates quickly.

With my 5th Ed deathwing I regularly faced 3 thunder fire marines, 6+ oblit chaos, 15 missile wolves, ect. Versus armies that skip blast weapons deathwing knights are downright murder, as pinpoint deep strike plus toughness 5, s10, and improved ws mean many normal thss counters do not apply. However versus armies with decent blast abilities a single small blast hits tons of models, and when he smoke clears lots of expensive models are gone.

DevianID wrote:
While the knights are really good, they have a huge weakness to blast weapons if they want toughness 5. Considering that people who take blast weapons tend to take a lot of them, this issue escalates quickly.

With my 5th Ed deathwing I regularly faced 3 thunder fire marines, 6+ oblit chaos, 15 missile wolves, ect. Versus armies that skip blast weapons deathwing knights are downright murder, as pinpoint deep strike plus toughness 5, s10, and improved ws mean many normal thss counters do not apply. However versus armies with decent blast abilities a single small blast hits tons of models, and when he smoke clears lots of expensive models are gone.

They do have a template weakness but as long as three are in base to base in a 5 man squad or 6 in a 10 man you can space the other Knights 2" away.

Ministry wrote:

DevianID wrote:
While the knights are really good, they have a huge weakness to blast weapons if they want toughness 5. Considering that people who take blast weapons tend to take a lot of them, this issue escalates quickly.

With my 5th Ed deathwing I regularly faced 3 thunder fire marines, 6+ oblit chaos, 15 missile wolves, ect. Versus armies that skip blast weapons deathwing knights are downright murder, as pinpoint deep strike plus toughness 5, s10, and improved ws mean many normal thss counters do not apply. However versus armies with decent blast abilities a single small blast hits tons of models, and when he smoke clears lots of expensive models are gone.

They do have a template weakness but as long as three are in base to base in a 5 man squad or 6 in a 10 man you can space the other Knights 2" away.

Flamers of Tzeentch are eagerly awaiting these kind of terminator formations.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
People are discounting the power maces too early. DWK are tough customers and can throw out a ton of wounds easily, even vs other Terminators (who have an invul anyway so AP2 wouldn't mean all that much). The only major drawback of DWK is that they can't score, which can be crippling in a super-elite DW force.

Even a 3+ invuln results in twice as many wounds compared to 2+. 5+ invuln results in 4 times as many wounds compared to 2+

e.g.

.5*.5*.16*2 = .08 2+

.5*.5*.33*2 = .165 3++

.5*.5*.66*2 = .33 5++

I played them yesterday @1k. Dropped the deathwing knights with Belial into my opponents backfield (infantry necrons), tough 5, 2+3++ made SO much difference. His whole army managed to kill ONE and then my 2 other deathwing units dropped next to them and game over.

Deathwing Knights suffer from a lack of shooting I think. A tervigon spam army wouldn't have a problem dealing with them through poison and numbers, plus enfeeble if I feel the need.

 jifel wrote:
Deathwing Knights suffer from a lack of shooting I think. A tervigon spam army wouldn't have a problem dealing with them through poison and numbers, plus enfeeble if I feel the need.

This is a good reason to include Ezekiel in with Belial

Sup guys,

TanKoL wrote:
No, his plan is to land the "lone" DW regulars first and let them scatter, then drop the DWK with attached Belial close-by for added awesomeness

I've tried these guys and I didn't like them that much. The AP4 just didn't cut it.

I much prefer TH/SS to the DWK.

Ministry wrote:


This is a good reason to include Ezekiel in with Belial

Here's a good reason not to: artificer armor.

Puscifer wrote:
I've tried these guys and I didn't like them that much. The AP4 just didn't cut it.

I much prefer TH/SS to the DWK.

Keep in mind the leader has A3 AP3 and every model in the unit can charge up once per game for AP2.

And on top of that, put Belial in the unit. That's 3 more AP3 attacks with WS5 and wounds on 2's. e.g. the unit will be able to handle anything, MEQs, TEQs, and everything else.

Tried the DW knights out, and I like them. one game against Heavy tank Guard the Land raider ride they had blew up, 2 knights died from lascannons in the second turn.

Had some really bad rolling which saw 4 more knights die as they crossed the field, but the seargent and the Mace commander persevered and ended up killing two tanks, winning me the game!


2nd game was against Tseneech deamons. They charged a Demon prince, and would have killed him if it wasn't for that damn Fateweaver. Anyways they where the last soldiers to die, lasting for 4 turns.

Wish my dice rolling was better, but W/E.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Tried the DW knights out, and I like them. one game against Heavy tank Guard the Land raider ride they had blew up, 2 knights died from lascannons in the second turn.

Death. Wing. Assault.

Didn't set up my list that way. (also, you don't have to sound like TFG about it)

I only used them as a shock troop, which they did do for me.