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 Grey Templar wrote:
Panther's are not dorky.

Oh yes they are. "We wanna be cool so we tried to copy the Russians but failed."

The Panther was an amazing Medium Tank. It had excellent frontal armor combined with a powerful gun.

Sure, the engines were shoddy towards the end there, but so were all German engines due to resource problems along with pressure to produce more and more vehicles on short notice.


If Germany had not had supply issues the Panther could well have stemmed the tide.

Well yes, it's an effective sniper tank (but a HORRIBLE close combat tank, with a slow engine, notoriously slow turret traverse, and absolutely pathetic side armor), but that wasn't the point.

It just doesn't look very cool to me.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:


As seen here a real world tank ends up being longer by narrower than GW monstruosities, plus the LRBT has a very high siluette that screams "shoot me" to AT gunners
M.

To be fair, so did the Sherman. And it was a highly effective vehicle, easily competing with the Panzer IV and Panther(once it got a weapon upgrade)

Fun fact, the Sherman has a better K/D ratio compared to Panthers.

Im talking about when Shermans were fighting Panthers and nothing else. For every 1 Sherman killed by a Panther, 1.1 Panthers were killed by Shermans.

Note thats a fun fact, in no way shape or form am I saying the Sherman is a better tank. This also is does not factor the different models of Shermans (E4, E2, E8, etc...)


All this K/D means is the Shermans veterans fought a lot of rookie Panthers after the Panzer Lehr division got destroyed in Operation Cobra

The Sherman WAS a better tank-- because it was the tank that the US military needed more, once you consider its cost, mobility, adaptability, etc.

Much like the Leman Russ for the Imperial Guard-- cheap, easy to manufacture, rugged, and with enough firepower to do its job.

The Panther was a fine tank, but given their situation, the Germans needed something else. If, as Grey Templar said, they were not completely and utterly incompetent when it came to logistics and efficiency, the Panther would have worked better. But they weren't, so that's a moot point.

And their logistics problems were largely due to Hitler's meddlings, plus overextending germany's number of feasable opponents. Given better supply and time constraints the Panther was a superior design from a combat perspective.



If the Germans had focused on building cheaper tanks, similar to the Sherman, they would have done much better.

Heck, if resources hadn't been diverted to making Tigers and King Tigers they might have done better. Too much focus on "War-winning" weapons.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Given better supply and time constraints the Panther was a superior design from a combat perspective.

The problem with ideas like this is that they ignore reality.

"If the T-34 has 10000000000mm of frontal armor and a gun that fired nuclear weapons, it would have been the better tank" is true. Any statement saying "If <insert tank here> had better <insert fact here>" or "Given <something untrue> then <tank> is good" is a silly statement.

The reality is, the Panther was a really bad tank given the situation it found itself in. It would have been an AMAZING! tank in many other (perhaps even most other) situations. But it was a bad design, because it was designed for a situation that did not exist.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And their logistics problems were largely due to Hitler's meddlings

It's easy to blame Hitler for the army's incompetence, but not necessarily entirely accurate.

 Melissia wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
And their logistics problems were largely due to Hitler's meddlings

It's easy to blame Hitler for the army's incompetence, but not necessarily entirely accurate.

You could also blame the protracted bombing of the production factories, like Henschel being reduced to 95% scrap, crippling production.

Sorry for my spelling mistakes but heres some outher things.
1. The panther being a Fine tank and all came too late to do any good.
2. one of the main problems faces by the germans whas the fact they wernt standerdized dramaticly slowing the ability to put armor back on the lines.
3. The sherman did an alright job it was a good tank but the real power behind it was our ability to mod the feth out of it and put more of them out there then the germans could effectivly kill
4 The LRBT feels more like the Tiger to me with a lot of the issues fixed. Bulky, slow but Emperor protect you if you get caught by the beast. and they are flat acrost the bored with parts. So you can canablize one out or a aknocked out one and have more on line. Hell I have read storyes of them busting a track to have the TC use his "Swager Stick" As a make shift pin to limp it home.
5 the Tiger and King tiger where moral breakers as well as a bastion of death. but at the same time it was the failing of the German infrastructure that killed thoes Tanks. they also lead to the creation of the Jagd Tiger wich is a beatstick and a hlf that could have gone a long way.
and finaly tho I do love talking about WW2 and such I would like to direct all of this back to 40k
what about things along the lines of Hell hound it has no IN capasity anymore but Does have larger weapons. Tho it COULD be still a light tank
Also think of all the tanks in use that are nonplayable in the IoM

Nah, the Leman Russ is the space T-34. It doesn't care about looking pretty just getting the job done.

If you want "Ugly Box with tracks" that title is shared as is between 2 machines.

The TOG 2 and Maus.







They are far from "medium" tanks but they are ugly as all get out.

As for 40k we might as well make a chart or something. I've modified my origional idea.


Light Tanks: Hellhound and its varients. Salamander (maybe), Predator (but I think i read it was a medium tank but cannot remember where)

Infantry Fighting Vehicle: Razorback, Chimera

APC: Rhino

Medium Tank: So far none found. But still think Predator fits here.

Heavy Tank: Malcador (its in its full name)

Main Battle Tank: Leman Russ and its varients.

Super Heavy Tank: Macharius, Baneblade

Ultra Heavy: Levthiathan, Imperialis

more added

Light Tanks: Hellhound and its varients. Salamander (maybe), Predator (but I think i read it was a medium tank but cannot remember where), Siegfried, Tauros


Infantry Fighting Vehicle: Razorback, Chimera

APC: Rhino, Testudo,

Medium Tank: So far none found. But still think Predator fits here.

Heavy Tank: Malcador (its in its full name) Land Raider and its varients , Spartan Assault Tank, Valdor Tank hunter

Main Battle Tank: Leman Russ and its varients. Ragnarok

Super Heavy Tank: Macharius, Baneblade and its varients, Falchion,Gorgon,

Ultra Heavy: Levthiathan, Imperialis

a Leviathan really isn't a tank. Its more of a semi-mobile fortress that functions as a command bunker.

Tauros (and Tauros Venator) aren't tanks, its a "dune buggy with a gun"?

There isnt really a "medium tank" about in Imperial terms. I suppose if you up-armoured a Chimera very slightly and fitted it with a turret / gun combo from a Russ that would be a medium tank but I dont think one will ever be released.

Ross74H wrote:
Tauros (and Tauros Venator) aren't tanks, its a "dune buggy with a gun"?

There isnt really a "medium tank" about in Imperial terms. I suppose if you up-armoured a Chimera very slightly and fitted it with a turret / gun combo from a Russ that would be a medium tank but I dont think one will ever be released.

There's actually a neat Chimera conversion that does something like that. On this very site.

 BloodAngels Brother wrote:
more added

Light Tanks: Hellhound and its varients. Salamander (maybe), Predator (but I think i read it was a medium tank but cannot remember where), Siegfried, Tauros

The Salamander and Siegfried remind of the Stuart light tank and the Pz II. The Tauros is more in-line with the humvee imho. A light utility vehicle or some such thing.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

Ross74H wrote:
Tauros (and Tauros Venator) aren't tanks, its a "dune buggy with a gun"?

There isnt really a "medium tank" about in Imperial terms. I suppose if you up-armoured a Chimera very slightly and fitted it with a turret / gun combo from a Russ that would be a medium tank but I dont think one will ever be released.

There's actually a neat Chimera conversion that does something like that. On this very site.

And very cool! Where'd you find it here?

But agreed, I can see a slightly up-armored and armed chimera filling in the medium tank role quite nicely.

I was looking for interior shots of a Chimera on Google and it popped up.

Thanks.

Done one like that myself, very very easy to do.



Also using this but with Russ turrets as my Russ stand ins.

An intersting comparison of Panthers and Shermans, at least in model scale version. Assuming the two models are scaled the same, the Panther has the same height as the sherman although the sloped armour will help more than the sherman's vertical sides.

http://cs.finescale.com/mobile/forums/thread.aspx?ThreadID=62343

Depends really. The sloped armor leaves the panther more vulnerable to attacks from an angle, such as airstrikes and rocket attacks from a rooftop, etc.

 Flinty wrote:
An intersting comparison of Panthers and Shermans, at least in model scale version. Assuming the two models are scaled the same, the Panther has the same height as the sherman although the sloped armour will help more than the sherman's vertical sides.

http://cs.finescale.com/mobile/forums/thread.aspx?ThreadID=62343

Hilariously, it's quite apparent from that picture is that the Panther is larger in almost all dimensions! High-profile "SHOOT ME!" indeed!

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Melissia wrote:
Depends really. The sloped armor leaves the panther more vulnerable to attacks from an angle, such as airstrikes and rocket attacks from a rooftop, etc.

Tanks have always been vulnerable to airstrikes and artillery. its why the Germans used camo on their vehicles.

The Allies didn't use camo much because it often led to friendly fire incidences. So they came up with the solution that if a vehicle has camo its an enemy.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Leman Russ is a medium tank..
Baneblade is a heavy tank.

That should cover all of definitions of tanks.

Agreed.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Depends really. The sloped armor leaves the panther more vulnerable to attacks from an angle, such as airstrikes and rocket attacks from a rooftop, etc.

Tanks have always been vulnerable to airstrikes and artillery. its why the Germans used camo on their vehicles.

That doesn't change the fact that sloped armor has disadvantages.

 Melissia wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Depends really. The sloped armor leaves the panther more vulnerable to attacks from an angle, such as airstrikes and rocket attacks from a rooftop, etc.

Tanks have always been vulnerable to airstrikes and artillery. its why the Germans used camo on their vehicles.

That doesn't change the fact that sloped armor has disadvantages.

You have to get into seriously thick armor for the slope to make much of a difference against a bomb. The Sherman has no more meaningfull slope against an air strike than the Panther does.

You have to hit the King Tiger before you have much meaningfull protection against an Air Strike, and this is completely countered by being big and slow.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Panther was an amazing Medium Tank. It had excellent frontal armor combined with a powerful gun.

Sure, the engines were shoddy towards the end there, but so were all German engines due to resource problems along with pressure to produce more and more vehicles on short notice.


If Germany had not had supply issues the Panther could well have stemmed the tide.

It was an over engineered mess. If it made it to combat it was excellent. However it was so overengineered matinence and cost to build were strong negatives. Its like after the PZIV they quit building tanks and started tring to design fighters. Too complex for the task needed.

I attribute the mechanical problems to the demand for rapid production and the short cuts that were taken to do that.

From the perspective of designing a weapon it was excellent. Engine problems shouldn't be considered in this.