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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 00:41:48
Subject: The American Public Education System
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Doc Brown
The Bleak Land of Gehenna (a.k.a Kentucky)
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As a former teacher and overall semi-cynical person, I can't help but feel that the public education system in America is in a state of decline or perhaps even outright failure (particularly in regard to schools in rural and impoverished communities). I don't personally think that there is a single issue that acted as the coffin nail for the system as it currently exists, but I do feel that there are several factors that have contributed to the current state of affairs, namely:
1. An over willingness on the part of administrators at the state, local, and national level to adopt new policies or goals simply because they are the newest, shiniest thing that promises to fix all of their problems;
2. A poor definition of exactly what is defined as academic success for students (beyond simply an arbitrary label derived from a test);
3. Falling monetary allocations to schools, which in turn leads to...
4. ... a decreased incentive to hire teachers who are the most qualified (as they have a higher minimum salary requirement);
5. A national culture that values spectacle over substance, and which insists that a person's stupidity is as good as another person's intelligence.
*6 (Special regional mention from the southeastern U.S.): A "good ol' boy" system of nepotism and favor-granting that allows those who are less qualified to be hired as teachers or administrators over those with greater qualifications.
Where I'm going with all this is the question of where the Dakka community stands on the issue. Is the system failing as badly as it seems? If so, why? If not, what is going right with it and why is there a perception of failure in the media?
I'm hoping this doesn't devolve into a yelling match....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 00:54:48
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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Fixture of Dakka
Kamloops, BC
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/16 00:57:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 01:12:58
Subject: The American Public Education System
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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As a prospective teacher, I think it is an enviroment that is not conductive to learning. Learning isnt just lectures in my opinion. Its getting students engaged, but in an enviroment on 30+ students(the average for my class) that is very hard. I was lucky to get into the classes that have smaller people in high school and by design we new each other and all had the same classes(we were an experiment in the school.)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 01:32:56
Subject: The American Public Education System
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[DCM]
The Main Man
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grayshadow87 wrote:
5. A national culture that values spectacle over substance, and which insists that a person's stupidity is as good as another person's intelligence.
Some of the other issues you mentioned are valid concerns, but I'm curious as to what you mean by a culture that insists one person's stupidity is as good as another person's intelligence? Do you have an example or two, perhaps?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 01:47:13
Subject: The American Public Education System
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Crazed Bloodkine
Baltimore, Maryland
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Hordini wrote: grayshadow87 wrote:
5. A national culture that values spectacle over substance, and which insists that a person's stupidity is as good as another person's intelligence.
Some of the other issues you mentioned are valid concerns, but I'm curious as to what you mean by a culture that insists one person's stupidity is as good as another person's intelligence? Do you have an example or two, perhaps?
Not sure if it qualifies, but maybe Tom Cruise believing and espousing that there is no such thing as chemical imbalances or Jenny McCarthy( I think it was) insisting vaccinations were to cause for autism in children? Those folks used their celebrity status to promote pseudo-science as fact, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Or I could be wrong.
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"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 02:01:17
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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Iron Fang
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Some of the other issues you mentioned are valid concerns, but I'm curious as to what you mean by a culture that insists one person's stupidity is as good as another person's intelligence? Do you have an example or two, perhaps?
The Jersey Shore, the media covering celebrities like everything they do is super-important and interesting, you know, that kind of stuff.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/16 02:01:31
With that said, I shall back away slowly and ominously and disappear in a puff of smoke, then smuggle some fruit across the border in order to stay competitive with the veggie cartel. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 02:29:19
Subject: The American Public Education System
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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US public education takes a pretty heavy hit, fairly constantly. But you look at it compared to various measures on science, maths and english skills and it fairs reasonably well, not great but reasonably well. There are all kinds of individual instances of money wasted on this fad or that piece of goofball technology, but honestly that's true for any public education system, and likely even more common in private systems (just because they're more flush with cash).
That said, the US does spend a lot of money per kid in the system, and could probably claim it ought to be a few places higher in various measures just on that basis but there are two reasons that doesn't happen.
The first is that the US system puts a lot of resources into kids at the two extremes of the system - kids with development problems and extremely smart kids all do very well in the US system. But money dedicated to catch up learning and to high achiever programs means less money for kids in the middle, and that means results in education rankings, which focus largely on the performance of the median student, will drop.
The other issue is that most places spread education dollars fairly evenly, as the money comes entirely from national and/or state programs, and so each kid more or less gets the same amount of funding as any other. But in the US, where a significant portion of funding is raised and spent at a local level, you get wildly varying amounts spent per student based on the socio-economic status of the local government. Education works on an extreme marginal returns scale - the first few hundred dollars gives you just enough to babysit the kids for 9-3, the next few hundred gives you the resources to start teaching, the next few hundred gives you the scope for top level teaching, and any money after that is nice and useful, but will only marginally improve grades. In the US you have schools that are battling to get the funds to just manage babysitting, plenty more with enough for basic teaching from old textbooks, and at the same time you've got schools that are absolutely floating in cash, free to spend on things that really don't improve student results. When you average this out you get a reduced performance.
hotsauceman1 wrote:As a prospective teacher, I think it is an enviroment that is not conductive to learning. Learning isnt just lectures in my opinion. Its getting students engaged, but in an enviroment on 30+ students(the average for my class) that is very hard. I was lucky to get into the classes that have smaller people in high school and by design we new each other and all had the same classes(we were an experiment in the school.)
Australia has spent the better part of the last 50 years steadily decreasing the student teacher ratio - reducing the number of kids in each class. We're now at a point where we're seeing the results of this, and we're realising it was a mistake. The problem is that the only genuinely sustainable way to maintain and sustain lower student teacher ratios is, over the long term, to keep teacher pay down. So what's happened here is that teacher's wages hasn't kept pace with other professions, and the result is each year more and more talented, hard working people choose professions other than teaching.
The end result of this is that you have a teacher and maybe only 22 students, but that teacher isn't there because he loves teaching, he's there because all the better performing graduates got into engineering and business and only left him a spot in teaching.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 02:59:29
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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First of all... I'm not dismissing that there are issues with the public schools systems...
But the responsibility for the child's education must remain with the parents, and I believe that accountability is lost now.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 03:08:16
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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whembly wrote:
But the responsibility for the child's education must remain with the parents, and I believe that accountability is lost now.
I don't believe that it is entirely lost, but it is definitely a fading issue, or rather that accountability is fading as many people who have never had any suddenly find themselves with kids of their own.
But, from what I have seen, and it rather baffles me, is that our "Primary" education is a fair wreck compared to our close allies, and yet our "Secondary" (or College/University to those who don't necessarily know) are generally as among the top, if not the tops in the entire world.
IF that is genuinely the case, we definitely have some disconnect somewhere in the system. Of course, I also feel that we need to bring back things like Shop class, Home Ec, etc. Otherwise today's youth will never be exposed to certain jobs that are definitely needed in society, pay very well, and yet are in many places, critically short workers... How is someone going to know whether or not they want to learn how to weld, if in their primary or High School years, they don't even have an option to take shop class? Anyone who has seen the youtube video of Mike from Dirty Jobs "testifying" in congress knows what I'm talking about here.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 03:08:56
Subject: The American Public Education System
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Hallowed Canoness
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I'd say the US education system's a complete clusterfeth at present. Everyone else seems to be explaining why much better then I would though.
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 03:27:28
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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One way to fix it is to disengage the state/federal money from test results. Let the local school board drive the ciriculum with STATES oversight.
ANd I second the idea to incorporate more "shop" like classes. All to often, we're hearing that "college" is the only way to go... (or at least, the pressure is there) and we're left with shortages of skilled workers (electricians, mechanic, you know... the blue collar jobs).
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 03:27:50
Subject: The American Public Education System
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Building a blood in water scent
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Public school system is socialism. Evil evil socialism. If you can't afford a good education for your kids they deserve a poor McEmployee's life. Or something.
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We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 03:33:24
Subject: The American Public Education System
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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feeder wrote:Public school system is socialism. Evil evil socialism. If you can't afford a good education for your kids they deserve a poor McEmployee's life. Or something.
wait... wut?
I'm a product of the public school systems (in St. Louis in fact!).
I only deserve a poor job?
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 03:35:27
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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Xenohunter with First Contact
Loserville - population: 1
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whembly wrote:One way to fix it is to disengage the state/federal money from test results. Let the local school board drive the ciriculum with STATES oversight.
ANd I second the idea to incorporate more "shop" like classes. All to often, we're hearing that "college" is the only way to go... (or at least, the pressure is there) and we're left with shortages of skilled workers (electricians, mechanic, you know... the blue collar jobs).
Wouldn't an individual have to take post secondary school for such blue collar skills anyway? Definitely not the standard 5 years for a 4 year degree, but higher education in some form to sharpen those shop skills. Also qualifications for such jobs requires a standard of testing which usually comes from a college-esque institution.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 03:40:44
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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tyrant of loserville wrote: whembly wrote:One way to fix it is to disengage the state/federal money from test results. Let the local school board drive the ciriculum with STATES oversight.
ANd I second the idea to incorporate more "shop" like classes. All to often, we're hearing that "college" is the only way to go... (or at least, the pressure is there) and we're left with shortages of skilled workers (electricians, mechanic, you know... the blue collar jobs).
Wouldn't an individual have to take post secondary school for such blue collar skills anyway? Definitely not the standard 5 years for a 4 year degree, but higher education in some form to sharpen those shop skills.
Not necessarily.
I know Electricians and Carpenters who apprenticed right out of highschool...
Also qualifications for such jobs requires a standard of testing which usually comes from a college-esque institution.
Sorry... I was referring to elementary education. Standardized testing for college entry is one thing... but standardized testing in the elementary school system and LINKING those results to Federal money is part of the problem.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 03:45:43
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Ensis Ferrae wrote:But, from what I have seen, and it rather baffles me, is that our "Primary" education is a fair wreck compared to our close allies, and yet our "Secondary" (or College/University to those who don't necessarily know) are generally as among the top, if not the tops in the entire world.
Primary is the first six years of education. Secondary is highschool. College/university is tertiary education.
And I'd disagree with you entirely in terms of which part of US education is failing. In terms of value for money, your college system is about as bad as it gets in the modern world. Sure, you've got a wonderful group of high end places, MIT, Princeton, Harvard etc that lead the world in many fields, but that's just the top end. Most kids will go to run of the mill places and get run of the mill degrees, and these are the folk who will make up most of your professional workforce and therefore drive your economy. Now, they might walk out with a degree that's about as good as a degree from a run of the mill university in any other developed country in the world, but in the US they'll also have a massive debt.
And that isn't just because government picks up more of the cheque elsewhere. The cost of tertiary education, whether the money comes from the student, from government or from private benefactors, is just way out of whack with what it costs elsewhere.
My last job before my current one was at a university over here. I used to look at US universities and just wonder where the hell the money went. We routinely beat colleges that spent three times as much as us per student, and we wasted so much money I actually couldn't even figure out what you squandered money on. It was a running joke around the uni that if you wanted to report that you were doing badly or okay you compared yourself to Australian and European universities, and if you wanted to report you were doing awesomely you compared yourself to American universities. Automatically Appended Next Post: whembly wrote:One way to fix it is to disengage the state/federal money from test results.
I absolutely agree that disengaging funding from test results is essential. One of the most staggeringly stupid bits of incentive funding I've ever seen, and something our Federal government is unbelievably following you guys into.
Let the local school board drive the ciriculum with STATES oversight.
I really just don't think there's much value in following this. Ultimately, there needs to be some kind of consistency to the information kids are leaving highschool with. It'd be a nightmare to have kids coming in to college with massive variations in what they know. Universities, working with state and federal systems, can considerably reduce that problem by setting the curriculum.
Once the core minimums are met there will be some scope left for teaching what might be of particular interest to the kids. But even then I wouldn't leave that to the collection of weirdos that tend to make up local school boards. Leave it up to the teachers themselves. Back them to know their kids, and know how their kids learn, and set the curriculum accordingly.
ANd I second the idea to incorporate more "shop" like classes. All to often, we're hearing that "college" is the only way to go... (or at least, the pressure is there) and we're left with shortages of skilled workers (electricians, mechanic, you know... the blue collar jobs).
Definitely.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/16 03:55:16
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 04:01:36
Subject: The American Public Education System
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Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman
Greenville, TX
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My personal take on the decline of our education system-
We stopped encouraging outstanding performance and began rewarding mediocrity. We stopped allowing our teachers to both discipline our children and be secure in the knowledge that parents would not only support them, but would reinforce the discipline at home.
There are the added issues that there are now too many students per teachers available in many schools, lack of funding for quality educational tools, an increased reliance on electronic media and less on the traditional methods that were proven to work.
I understand and know from personal experience that the electronic aids in the classrooms are beneficial, but, when a teacher is forced to go off of a uniform curriculum rather than one that he or she comes up with that covers the necessary subject matter... All they end up doing is parroting from the slides that they have on the system. I've seen that happen. Then again, I've also seen the most interesting subject I could have ever imagined rendered into pure torture by an uninteresting and uninterested instructor, with out the electronic aids.
Where did we go wrong? Hard to say, really. All I know is that from my own observations and experiences, all of those are contirbutors to the problem.
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Bonecrusher 6, out. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 04:12:43
Subject: The American Public Education System
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Doc Brown
The Bleak Land of Gehenna (a.k.a Kentucky)
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Hordini wrote: grayshadow87 wrote:
5. A national culture that values spectacle over substance, and which insists that a person's stupidity is as good as another person's intelligence.
Some of the other issues you mentioned are valid concerns, but I'm curious as to what you mean by a culture that insists one person's stupidity is as good as another person's intelligence? Do you have an example or two, perhaps?
I would have to say that the responses following yours largely sum up what I would have said regarding my view of cultural issues facing education in the U.S. On one hand, society is largely focused on superficial issues (e.g. [Insert Celebrity Here] is showing a "baby bump." OMG!), which is detrimental to the engagement of students in their education as it applies to a larger scale. In terms of valuing the stupidity of one as equal to the knowledge of another, there are the aforementioned celebrity status=insight situations, and on a smaller level there is the underlying belief that, for example, because one has the biological capacity to crank out a batch of children, that suddenly makes the individual qualified to attempt to micromanage every aspect of that child's existence as it relates to his or her education. A personal experience with this came early on in my teaching career in public schools. During my first year of teaching, I received precisely five parent calls. A single call was regarding a child's grades and what could be done to improve them. Two of the other calls were from irate parents demanding that I change their children's failing grades because they were "A-level students" who apparently were incapable of scoring the failing grades they had earned despite being given multiple chances to make up missing work. The remaining two were from parents who also happened to be teachers and coaches, both of whom gave me less than subtle pressure to allow key student-athletes to retry tests that they had failed so that they would be eligible to play. When I stood firm against fudging the grades, I received a visit from a handful of administrators who gave me a rather stern talking to and essentially told me that I needed to "be willing to play ball" (not the exact words, of course, but their essence). It's from several incidents such as these and the others that I have mentioned that I draw my conclusion about a society that is ultimately toxic to actual academic gains and value being placed on education.
Regarding the issue of colleges, from my two years working as a graduate assistant (where I had the benefit of sitting in on department meetings and teaching several classes, as well as weaseling juicy morsels of information from my co-workers) and my time spent as a student, I can say that often the budget is eaten up by inflated salaries for university administrators, frivolous additions to campuses that don't relate to academic progress (how many different types of sports facilities does one university really need, after all), and secondary staff to support the aforementioned two sources of expenditures (i.e. overpaid coaches, repair costs for buildings, and hordes of clerks, aides, secretaries, etc.). Only the bare minimum is used for maintaining existing academic department buildings, adding new faculty to understaffed departments who often have to rely on severely underpaid adjunct professors, and accomplishing other things that directly tie to academics. Granted, this may not be the case at every college, but at my lovely alma mater it was most definitely the order of business.
I appreciate the comments so far, and I have to say I'm finding the ideas coming up to be intriguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 05:37:12
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Ensis Ferrae wrote:
But, from what I have seen, and it rather baffles me, is that our "Primary" education is a fair wreck compared to our close allies, and yet our "Secondary" (or College/University to those who don't necessarily know) are generally as among the top, if not the tops in the entire world.
I agree with Sebster. There are quite a few amazing colleges and universities in the United States, but they are vastly outnumbered by the ones that the are average and below. As an example, before moving on to the school that eventually granted my doctorate I started taking graduate course at a directional in order to gauge my interest in continuing down an academic career path. The first course I took was Seminar: International Politics, a graduate course that was ostensibly was intended to cover that broad segment of political science in detail. This course not only covered the exact same material that the introductory International Politics covered during my undergraduate experience, but was taught in exactly the same way; from journal articles.
Now, this is method of instruction is standard at the graduate level, but when some undergraduate institutions offer nearly the exact same course to freshmen there is a clear range in overall quality of instruction.
sebster wrote:
I really just don't think there's much value in following this. Ultimately, there needs to be some kind of consistency to the information kids are leaving highschool with. It'd be a nightmare to have kids coming in to college with massive variations in what they know.
Mother of God yes. Even as it stands its often difficult to effectively teach entry-level courses because you have to find a way to effectively lecture students despite a fairly large range in terms of existing knowledge. Take away state standards and what is presently difficult becomes nearly impossible, at least without massively cutting educational quality.
I won't say that I ever held a desire to teach, but my time spent as a teaching assistant has put me off the idea permanently. I think I might actually prefer going back to training full time, and that's saying something.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/16 05:51:51
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 06:11:59
Subject: The American Public Education System
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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Here is what they need to do: 1) Introduce a more rigorous testing system similar to the GCSE and A-level qualifications in the UK, though allow students to take more subjects for A-level (choosing 4 subjects is incredibly difficult). Have a "National Curriculum" - say that all 5th graders should know, buy the end of the academic year, how to do basic algebra, can read to x level, etc. Leave the schools to decide how to do this. 2) Stop cutting school funding. Increase the education budget at the expense of national defence (which is ridiculously high!) and increase the tax burden of the wealthy or in general tax a bit higher. Even a 1% increase could do wonders. 3) Make subjects such as drama, music, art and other creative subjects more prominent. Run extra-curricular activities to supplement what is done in class - have an orchestra, have instrumental tuition for the students - do a lot more. 4) Actually, increasing extra-curricular activities could be pretty good. Having chess teams as well as football or basketball teams would be nice. 5) Pay teachers more money. Make teaching high schools or elementary schools a viable option for college graduates. You'll attract more qualified people. 6) Increase the focus on the humanities. It doesn't help the foreigner's view of your country when your VP nominee for the Republican party in 2008 makes stupid remarks. Change the way history is taught so it actually makes sense! 7) Don't cut funding for failing schools! If anything, increase funding! 8) Censor the media to a certain degree, especially reality TV shows. Do you really think that it helps students study when they see someone like Kim Kardashian roll around in money for doing absolutely nothing? To paraphrase something Obama said: make children aspire to be astronauts, scientists, historians, geologists, farmers, generals, CEOs etc. instead of them wanting to become the next Lil Wayne or whatever, 9) Re-introduce discipline into the schools. You don't want a generation of hoodlums and sluts (as my generation looks like what it will become), you want a generation of intellectual people. I don't feel that parents can do enough - they're somewhere else for much of the day! I'm not saying that they should re-introduce corporal punishment, but have penalties that will make the students sit up and behave. 10) Finally, make sure that you teach the children credible facts that are backed up by information and truth - teach them the latest scientific principles, not creationism. However, as I have said before, I'm just a 16 year old, so what would I know?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/16 06:12:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 06:16:32
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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Fireknife Shas'el
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whembly wrote:First of all... I'm not dismissing that there are issues with the public schools systems...
But the responsibility for the child's education must remain with the parents, and I believe that accountability is lost now.
Is education actually the responsibility of the parents? That statement always pops up and it always kind makes me raise my eyebrow. In America education has always been the role of the state. If it really was the parents responsibility, then we wouldn't have a public school system. It's a little like saying that your responsible for repairing the street in front of your house. I guess we can always blame the parents, but it's not really their job to teach.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 06:30:15
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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nomotog wrote:
Is education actually the responsibility of the parents? That statement always pops up and it always kind makes me raise my eyebrow. In America education has always been the role of the state.
Not really, public schools have been at least a limited feature of the US since the Revolution, but they didn't become pervasive until around 1900 and even then only at the primary level.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 06:38:35
Subject: The American Public Education System
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Hallowed Canoness
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ExNoctemNacimur wrote:Here is what they need to do:
1) Introduce a more rigorous testing system similar to the GCSE and A-level qualifications in the UK, though allow students to take more subjects for A-level (choosing 4 subjects is incredibly difficult). Have a "National Curriculum" - say that all 5th graders should know, buy the end of the academic year, how to do basic algebra, can read to x level, etc. Leave the schools to decide how to do this.
2) Stop cutting school funding. Increase the education budget at the expense of national defence (which is ridiculously high!) and increase the tax burden of the wealthy or in general tax a bit higher. Even a 1% increase could do wonders.
3) Make subjects such as drama, music, art and other creative subjects more prominent. Run extra-curricular activities to supplement what is done in class - have an orchestra, have instrumental tuition for the students - do a lot more.
4) Actually, increasing extra-curricular activities could be pretty good. Having chess teams as well as football or basketball teams would be nice.
5) Pay teachers more money. Make teaching high schools or elementary schools a viable option for college graduates. You'll attract more qualified people.
6) Increase the focus on the humanities. It doesn't help the foreigner's view of your country when your VP nominee for the Republican party in 2008 makes stupid remarks. Change the way history is taught so it actually makes sense!
7) Don't cut funding for failing schools! If anything, increase funding!
8) Censor the media to a certain degree, especially reality TV shows. Do you really think that it helps students study when they see someone like Kim Kardashian roll around in money for doing absolutely nothing? To paraphrase something Obama said: make children aspire to be astronauts, scientists, historians, geologists, farmers, generals, CEOs etc. instead of them wanting to become the next Lil Wayne or whatever,
9) Re-introduce discipline into the schools. You don't want a generation of hoodlums and sluts (as my generation looks like what it will become), you want a generation of intellectual people. I don't feel that parents can do enough - they're somewhere else for much of the day! I'm not saying that they should re-introduce corporal punishment, but have penalties that will make the students sit up and behave.
10) Finally, make sure that you teach the children credible facts that are backed up by information and truth - teach them the latest scientific principles, not creationism.
However, as I have said before, I'm just a 16 year old, so what would I know?
I can agree with all of this though on point 8 I'd be okay with shipping Kim Kardashian and those like her to a special penal colony in the antarctic.
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 06:39:01
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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nomotog wrote:Is education actually the responsibility of the parents? That statement always pops up and it always kind makes me raise my eyebrow. In America education has always been the role of the state. If it really was the parents responsibility, then we wouldn't have a public school system. It's a little like saying that your responsible for repairing the street in front of your house. I guess we can always blame the parents, but it's not really their job to teach.
Well, it's the responsibility of both. Teaching is a skill and the person best placed to help your child is a skilled, motivated teacher, but for that to happen you need to have a kid who is engaged and passionate about learning.
I read an interesting stat a while ago, that the average kid entering first grade from a middle class family knows about 5,000 words, while the average kid entering first grade from a working class family knows about 500. The difference being that the middle class families will typically talk to their children more, and then when you consider that they will also read to them more and help them with numbers more, well then you get kids getting in to school with a big headstart that will help their learning.
Not that the problem is entirely a class one. I agree entirely with Whembly that more and more parents aren't taking an active role in their kid's education (or in anything in their kid's lives really), and from recents events over here it appears (anecdotally at least) that these parents are from all social classes - wealthier parents seem just as likely to put their careers and personal lives ahead of raising their children as anyone else.
I think there really is a greater cultural shift, where people are responded to the increasing calls for material success and chasing personal ambitions by, well, chasing more money and their own personal ambitions, at the expense of taking an active, engaged role in the raising of their own kids.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 07:56:39
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Apart from agreeing with what Sebster wrote above, I'll also blame some of it on the anti-intellectualism that seems to be getting more prevalent, both in the US and here in Sweden. People thinking that their opinion should be valued the same as that of a Professor (UK definition) in the field. The vaccine "debate" illustrates this well.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 08:06:51
Subject: The American Public Education System
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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I blame over-liberalism,
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 08:10:14
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:Apart from agreeing with what Sebster wrote above, I'll also blame some of it on the anti-intellectualism that seems to be getting more prevalent, both in the US and here in Sweden. People thinking that their opinion should be valued the same as that of a Professor ( UK definition) in the field. The vaccine "debate" illustrates this well.
Ahtman has a quote in his sig from 30Rock that captured it perfectly - "I'm not an expert but I do have a strong opinion."
That said, I think these are all problems that education systems all over the world struggle with, nothing that might make the US system specifically struggle (which leads back to my original point - the US system, despite all the noise, performs fairly well overall).
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 08:11:36
Subject: The American Public Education System
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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Well, take a look at the Finnish system, the best in the world - it's not exactly hard to replicate that system,
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 08:15:04
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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Fixture of Dakka
Kamloops, BC
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:Apart from agreeing with what Sebster wrote above, I'll also blame some of it on the anti-intellectualism that seems to be getting more prevalent, both in the US and here in Sweden. People thinking that their opinion should be valued the same as that of a Professor ( UK definition) in the field. The vaccine "debate" illustrates this well.
I think that mode of thinking has always been prevalent in society we're highly opinionated on a lot of things but will only ever be an expert in a few areas.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 09:48:57
Subject: Re:The American Public Education System
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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ExNoctemNacimur wrote:Here is what they need to do:
8) Censor the media to a certain degree, especially reality TV shows. Do you really think that it helps students study when they see someone like Kim Kardashian roll around in money for doing absolutely nothing? To paraphrase something Obama said: make children aspire to be astronauts, scientists, historians, geologists, farmers, generals, CEOs etc. instead of them wanting to become the next Lil Wayne or whatever,
9) Re-introduce discipline into the schools. You don't want a generation of hoodlums and sluts (as my generation looks like what it will become), you want a generation of intellectual people. I don't feel that parents can do enough - they're somewhere else for much of the day! I'm not saying that they should re-introduce corporal punishment, but have penalties that will make the students sit up and behave.
However, as I have said before, I'm just a 16 year old, so what would I know?
I don't see how censorship can solve anything. You're essentially selecting what to allow or censor based upon your personal tastes. There are other methods to encourage true achievement other than censorship to protect children from television.
And I don't quite understand how the sexual promiscuity of women factors into this conversation. However, even beyond that, you appear to be making the assumption that 'hoodlums' are created out of a lack of discipline, which is a very simplistic viewpoint that borders on being outright incorrect.
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