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As young people, we're very impressionable. Don't tell me that a show such as Keeping Up With The Kardashians or a similar show isn't a bad influence. We're obsessed with celebrity and materialistic culture and the reality shows exemplify this. It's not personal preference, since I actually quite enjoy a few of the shows, but because I think it's damaging.

As for discipline. I didn't say that increased discipline would immediately stop the creation of hoodlums. But do you honestly think that with lazy parenting and next to no discipline at schools the number of hoodlums will decrease? Increasing the discipline at schools will reduce the number of these people.

Finally, my mention of the sexual promiscuity of women was not meant to be taken as a point on its own.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
As young people, we're very impressionable. Don't tell me that a show such as Keeping Up With The Kardashians or a similar show isn't a bad influence. .

One would suggest that countering the influence of shows like this is more the job of the parents rather than wider society.

 whembly wrote:
One way to fix it is to disengage the state/federal money from test results. Let the local school board drive the ciriculum with STATES oversight.

ANd I second the idea to incorporate more "shop" like classes. All to often, we're hearing that "college" is the only way to go... (or at least, the pressure is there) and we're left with shortages of skilled workers (electricians, mechanic, you know... the blue collar jobs).

The problem with that (no testing) of course is that, its perfect for an organization that doesn't want to actually be held to a standard.

 reds8n wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
As young people, we're very impressionable. Don't tell me that a show such as Keeping Up With The Kardashians or a similar show isn't a bad influence. .

One would suggest that countering the influence of shows like this is more the job of the parents rather than wider society.

Half the parents probably don't give a gak though.

Education is a three legged stool. It requires the collaboration of the School System, The Parents, and The Students. If anyone of these parts is not up to the task, the entire thing will wobble or fall.

It is easy for the State to do something about the School System. That is really the only part the Government can actually influence. However, that still leaves The Parents, and The Students very capable of destabilizing the stool of Education.

The question in my mind is, how do you influence the Parents and the Students about their role in the Education process?

 Easy E wrote:
Education is a three legged stool. It requires the collaboration of the School System, The Parents, and The Students. If anyone of these parts is not up to the task, the entire thing will wobble or fall.

It is easy for the State to do something about the School System. That is really the only part the Government can actually influence. However, that still leaves The Parents, and The Students very capable of destabilizing the stool of Education.

The question in my mind is, how do you influence the Parents and the Students about their role in the Education process?

That seems to be the major question several people in education and in general are asking, especially in schools that are in PLA (persistently low-achieving) status. I've seen a handful of neighboring districts and even the district in which I worked set about trying to create a "cultural shift" to address the problem of students more interested in disrupting class and/or simply tuning out, as well as parents who are offended at the notion that they might have to take an interest in their children's education rather than treating school as a baby-sitter. In every case, the attempted shifts failed and business has continued as it always has, which leads me to believe that such ideas are largely an attempt by higher-ups to make a name for themselves without actually having a legitimate plan to address the issue of culture.Frankly, I don't even know that such a shift is possible. I'd love to hear any suggestions as to how it could happen.

I've often puzzled over that myself, and I think it's near impossible for a school to affect that kind of change in a community.

Schools are generally expected to cure society's ills, but it's not possible.

One piece I read had a nice turn of phrase: "Schools are museums of virtue". Struck a chord with me, when looking at the hypocrisy of many parents.

Still, there are awesome, dedicated parents and there are wonderful, insightful young people out there. I don't believe it's entirely as bad as it's made out to be. I do believe that academic interference from the social science fields has often had a negative effect when their policies are taken on board wholesale. I strongly believe that if you change a system as complex as a school or education system, you're always going to screw someone over. In the current system, I am aware of who is being screwed and can attempt to compensate. If any large changes happen, it could be 4 years before that institutional awareness reasserts and until then you've got people being really badly let down by the system. For that reason, despite my previous political views, I have become pretty conservative about education reform.

 Easy E wrote:
Education is a three legged stool. It requires the collaboration of the School System, The Parents, and The Students. If anyone of these parts is not up to the task, the entire thing will wobble or fall.

It is easy for the State to do something about the School System. That is really the only part the Government can actually influence. However, that still leaves The Parents, and The Students very capable of destabilizing the stool of Education.

The question in my mind is, how do you influence the Parents and the Students about their role in the Education process?

Of course, if the State promises to apply electrical motivation daily for any grade below a B I think that will take of the issue...

 grayshadow87 wrote:

That seems to be the major question several people in education and in general are asking, especially in schools that are in PLA (persistently low-achieving) status. I've seen a handful of neighboring districts and even the district in which I worked set about trying to create a "cultural shift" to address the problem of students more interested in disrupting class and/or simply tuning out, as well as parents who are offended at the notion that they might have to take an interest in their children's education rather than treating school as a baby-sitter. In every case, the attempted shifts failed and business has continued as it always has, which leads me to believe that such ideas are largely an attempt by higher-ups to make a name for themselves without actually having a legitimate plan to address the issue of culture.Frankly, I don't even know that such a shift is possible. I'd love to hear any suggestions as to how it could happen.

For such a culture shift to occur, I'm not sure a school can do it alone. it has to be a community wide initiative with buy-in and support from local government, community organizations, businesses, and advocacy groups. It osunds nearly impossible. However, you don;t need "everyone" to buy into the culture shift that "Education Matters", you only need more than half of them. Eventually the majority would start to believe it as well.

The other major hurdle is time. A shift like this would take more than a year or two. It might even take a generation. I'm not sure the "need" is strong enough, because the current culture works well enough for most, and benefits a lot of people in different ways. Maintain such an effort would be challenging and require constant reinforcement.

That is not a challenge I (or many) would like to take on in a Community.

You don't need all that, just break out the electrodes. Where there's a will, there's a way.

 Frazzled wrote:

 whembly wrote:
One way to fix it is to disengage the state/federal money from test results. Let the local school board drive the ciriculum with STATES oversight.

ANd I second the idea to incorporate more "shop" like classes. All to often, we're hearing that "college" is the only way to go... (or at least, the pressure is there) and we're left with shortages of skilled workers (electricians, mechanic, you know... the blue collar jobs).

The problem with that (no testing) of course is that, its perfect for an organization that doesn't want to actually be held to a standard.

Goes back to that the parents need to be involved...

Plus with a transparent process and the fact that the school board are elected officials, we could absolutely hold them to a standard.

 whembly wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 whembly wrote:
One way to fix it is to disengage the state/federal money from test results. Let the local school board drive the ciriculum with STATES oversight.

ANd I second the idea to incorporate more "shop" like classes. All to often, we're hearing that "college" is the only way to go... (or at least, the pressure is there) and we're left with shortages of skilled workers (electricians, mechanic, you know... the blue collar jobs).

The problem with that (no testing) of course is that, its perfect for an organization that doesn't want to actually be held to a standard.

Goes back to that the parents need to be involved...

Plus with a transparent process and the fact that the school board are elected officials, we could absolutely hold them to a standard.

Why do you think its atransparent process? Why do you think the school board will be elected?

 Frazzled wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 whembly wrote:
One way to fix it is to disengage the state/federal money from test results. Let the local school board drive the ciriculum with STATES oversight.

ANd I second the idea to incorporate more "shop" like classes. All to often, we're hearing that "college" is the only way to go... (or at least, the pressure is there) and we're left with shortages of skilled workers (electricians, mechanic, you know... the blue collar jobs).

The problem with that (no testing) of course is that, its perfect for an organization that doesn't want to actually be held to a standard.

Goes back to that the parents need to be involved...

Plus with a transparent process and the fact that the school board are elected officials, we could absolutely hold them to a standard.

Why do you think its atransparent process? Why do you think the school board will be elected?

Where I live... the district's Super Intendent and a couple of members are elected...

I'm saying it SHOULD be.

Watch, "Waiting for Superman" it's a documentary on why the US seems to have so many drop out factories compared to other developed nations. It's actually a really good documentary.

However it does place the blame pretty squarely on the heads of the Teachers Unions.

@Ratbarf: I've actually seen the majority of it while hanging out at a friend's house recently, because we're the kind of dorks who enjoy documentaries as hang-out movies. It seemed to me to oversimplify the problems (as you stated) while trying its best to push charter schools as the be-all, end-all solution.

@Frazzled regarding electrodes: Bless your soul. If only we could use such tactics.

 Ratbarf wrote:
Watch, "Waiting for Superman" it's a documentary on why the US seems to have so many drop out factories compared to other developed nations. It's actually a really good documentary.

However it does place the blame pretty squarely on the heads of the Teachers Unions.

It does a good job of highlighting the problems. I'm not sure I agree with what it considers the solutions.

Ratbarf wrote:Watch, "Waiting for Superman" it's a documentary on why the US seems to have so many drop out factories compared to other developed nations. It's actually a really good documentary.

However it does place the blame pretty squarely on the heads of the Teachers Unions.

I've seen this. It's nothing but a commercial for charter schools, which they are in dire need of, considering on average charter schools perform significantly worse than public schools. Additionally, the film appears to worship standardized testing, which has been shown time and again to be a lazy evaluative tool that negatively skews results, and when paired with a top-down administrative approach, encourages 'training for the test' as opposed to actually teaching and educating students.

If you want to improve education, then listen to the teachers, and nobody else.

Contrary to right-wing belief, it takes a lot of work to become a teacher, and your compensation for such will not be reflected monetarily; logically leading one to understand that those aspiring to become teachers are likely doing so because of their own internal motivation to educate students. As such, they will always have the best interests of the students at heart; as opposed to anyone who thinks that the education system should be profit-driven.

The best teachers are not primarily motivated by money. The worst ones are.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:Watch, "Waiting for Superman" it's a documentary on why the US seems to have so many drop out factories compared to other developed nations. It's actually a really good documentary.

However it does place the blame pretty squarely on the heads of the Teachers Unions.

I've seen this. It's nothing but a commercial for charter schools, which they are in dire need of, considering on average charter schools perform significantly worse than public schools. Additionally, the film appears to worship standardized testing, which has been shown time and again to be a lazy evaluative tool that negatively skews results, and when paired with a top-down administrative approach, encourages 'training for the test' as opposed to actually teaching and educating students.

If you want to improve education, then listen to the teachers, and nobody else.

Yup... agreed there!

Contrary to right-wing belief, it takes a lot of work to become a teacher,

Uh... what? Why is that in the "right-wing" domain? I don't think I've ever heard of anyone (from all political spectrum) saying it's easy to be a teacher. o.O

and your compensation for such will not be reflected monetarily; logically leading one to understand that those aspiring to become teachers are likely doing so because of their own internal motivation to educate students. As such, they will always have the best interests of the students at heart; as opposed to anyone who thinks that the education system should be profit-driven.

The best teachers are not primarily motivated by money. The worst ones are.

Yup... that's true. Most teachers I know (and I know plenty, from public and private schools) treat it as a calling...

Oh... azazel, did ya know that Canada ration healthcare there?

whembly wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
Contrary to right-wing belief, it takes a lot of work to become a teacher,

Uh... what? Why is that in the "right-wing" domain? I don't think I've ever heard of anyone (from all political spectrum) saying it's easy to be a teacher. o.O

Go look up the rhetoric thrown about in Wisconsin.

 azazel the cat wrote:

whembly wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
Contrary to right-wing belief, it takes a lot of work to become a teacher,

Uh... what? Why is that in the "right-wing" domain? I don't think I've ever heard of anyone (from all political spectrum) saying it's easy to be a teacher. o.O

Go look up the rhetoric thrown about in Wisconsin.

You mean when they passed the right to work bill?

Um... if you want to interpret that... But it was more of a Union vs state thing. o.O

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Well, take a look at the Finnish system, the best in the world - it's not exactly hard to replicate that system,

Its easy when you are a unitary state, which the US is not.

Care to link some of it. Do people think it really it doesn't take work to become a teacher?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
As a prospective teacher, I think it is an enviroment that is not conductive to learning. Learning isnt just lectures in my opinion. Its getting students engaged, but in an enviroment on 30+ students(the average for my class) that is very hard. I was lucky to get into the classes that have smaller people in high school and by design we new each other and all had the same classes(we were an experiment in the school.)

What are you wanting to teach? I thought you were considering counseling or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grayshadow87 wrote:

1. An over willingness on the part of administrators at the state, local, and national level to adopt new policies or goals simply because they are the newest, shiniest thing that promises to fix all of their problems;
2. A poor definition of exactly what is defined as academic success for students (beyond simply an arbitrary label derived from a test);
3. Falling monetary allocations to schools, which in turn leads to...
4. ... a decreased incentive to hire teachers who are the most qualified (as they have a higher minimum salary requirement);
5. A national culture that values spectacle over substance, and which insists that a person's stupidity is as good as another person's intelligence.
*6 (Special regional mention from the southeastern U.S.): A "good ol' boy" system of nepotism and favor-granting that allows those who are less qualified to be hired as teachers or administrators over those with greater qualifications.

All of your points are good, but I think that you've neglected to add the most important factor to a successful education. The parents.

Parents expect schools to raise their kids. Parents are becoming less involved with making sure that their kids are doing their work. The parents aren't monitoring their grades and then are suddenly surprised that little Timmy is failing math! "How could the teacher let this happen?"

Psst. It's not the teacher. Your kid only did 25% of the home work assignments and failed to study for the tests. Instead of letting him play XBox all night, perhaps you should not let him take out the video games until his homework is done?

I like that question Easy-E, about getting the change in behaviors from parents and children alike.

It is not the schools job to influence this, it is the job of everyone, you, me, average people everywhere. Then the media, then etc etc etc.

How do we go about doing it is still the question. We need to crack down on poor behaviors, and stop letting people get away with the little stuff. Or rewarding poor behaviors.

For instance, 5 or 6 year old child screaming in the market, you have all seen it, they demand something like candy of the parents, whatever. Most parents now a days just let it happen, and try to ignore it. Most on lookers look away and try to ignore it.

Better to let the parent know, "you screaming child and behavior is not welcome here." At least do not look away, look at it, be disapproving, get the message across that this behavior is unacceptable.

Soon enough parents will be hauling their children outside and disciplining them.

We got off track a couple few decades ago, that disciplining your children become a taboo. This is where it all starts.

Poor discipline = bad mindset to learn.

I try not to get on the "it's the parents' fault" track, but it is a highly valid area of concern. I'm somewhat glad to see a drifting away from corporal punishment as a first-line defense against misbehavior, as several... less than savvy parents I've encountered in my life before I started teaching tended to lay out severe beatings for inconsequential or outright non-existent misbehavior (spitting on a sidewalk, asking a question when they thought someone had finished talking, etc.) This could be a regional problem though, so I won't speak for the entirety of the population...

It seems to me that the issue is the way in which the disciplinary pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, leading every child to think they are the greatest thing the world has ever seen, that they are all geniuses and deserve to be the absolute center of attention, worthy of praise and permitted to disrupt class, break rules, etc. while actually being rewarded for such behavior. To put it bluntly, I believe parents making sure to let their children know that they aren't any more special than anyone else and that if they want to be important to others or worthy of attention then they need to actually do something that warrants it.

For a highly psychotic form of such "overly positive" (for lack of a better term) parenting, try pulling up "indigo children" on Google. While such insanity hardly characterizes most parents, I have seen a handful of cases where parents exhibit similar beliefs about their children, barring the supposed supernatural powers.

Bah! You beat me to the Indigo Children example. If ever there was a clear example of backpfeifengesicht, New Age parents are it.

Tangentially, I blame the appearance of cognitive psychology in the forefront of educational theories for many of the entitlement/self-esteem problems currently causing impediments to real progress.

 dogma wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Well, take a look at the Finnish system, the best in the world - it's not exactly hard to replicate that system,

Its easy when you are a unitary state, which the US is not.

And have seven people, but of course they are manly people worth ten men each! Yea Finland!

 azazel the cat wrote:


Tangentially, I blame the appearance of cognitive psychology in the forefront of educational theories for many of the entitlement/self-esteem problems currently causing impediments to real progress.

Out of curiosity, what makes you say that? I can see certain aspects of cognitive psychology being beneficial in understanding how students acquire new information (e.g. Piagetian theory applied to learning, although I think Piaget is highly overrated), but I'm not quite making the connection with an entitled attitude. Then again I haven't slept in a while, so it's probably staring me right in the face and I'm too slap-happy to see it.

As someone that is a teacher (HS physics)... i would tell people to never become one.

There are a multitude of issues. Money is a big one... but tossing a truck load o money at something will NEVER fix it... it will just encourage more failure... Pay me more for failing? yes please!

Good teachers do need to be rewarded. BUT they need to be rewarded with a reasonable schedule, fair compensation, respect, and help when it comes to difficult students.

The good teachers are instead beaten into mediocrity by the current system.

That is my fear for becoming a teacher(and loss of not having money)
That i will not be respected, that people will walk all over me.