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 Makutsu wrote:
That's why I said it isn't fair for high WS users since there's not as much benefits yet you are paying the same amount of points for maybe a better S HQ than a WS HQ

Except that's not necessarily true. If GW understands game balance at all you don't pay the same amount for +1 WS as you do for +1 on other attributes.

You realize that gif you keep referencing - it was a set up. They did that on purpose so its not indicative of what would happen in an actual combat -he helped her spin around like that.

 Makutsu wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
I'm still looking for a good justification between why it is a 5+ for WS1 vs WS10 AND WS4 and WS10, How do you convince yourself that a Sniper Drone hits as easily as a Space Marine would on a WS10 model?

Think about how Chaos Daemon players feel with their WS10 Bloodthirsters or Tyranid players with their WS9 Swarmlords who DON'T have her awesome additional attack ability. Seriously, the Swarmlord is a Hive Tyrant (already an exceptionally deadly melee fighter) with the accumulated knowledge of billions of years worth of fighting, and he gets 5 attacks that hit a Grot on a 3+.

I don't mind - he's still completely beastly, but there's just some combats you don't want him in.

That's why I said it isn't fair for high WS users since there's not as much benefits yet you are paying the same amount of points for maybe a better S HQ than a WS HQ

There is an advantage - against the units with higher than average WS they are still hitting on a 3+. That's the point. Against higher skilled models, they're still hitting easily. They are, however, being hit easily. It's not meant to be risk free, no matter what the fluff says, because it's still a game that needs some semblance of balance.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
That's why I said it isn't fair for high WS users since there's not as much benefits yet you are paying the same amount of points for maybe a better S HQ than a WS HQ

Except that's not necessarily true. If GW understands game balance at all you don't pay the same amount for +1 WS as you do for +1 on other attributes.

Lelith is expensive as hell relative to the Dark Eldar HQs and by looking at stats and amounts of wounds caused through shooting and assaulting,and considering those her price is fairly over-priced.
There's a reason why people don't field wyches as assault units anymore, and I have yet to see a competitive list field Lelith. Then again, I understand that there's useless units in every codex but her high price is mainly due to her high WS and high BS.

There is an advantage - against the units with higher than average WS they are still hitting on a 3+. That's the point. Against higher skilled models, they're still hitting easily. They are, however, being hit easily. It's not meant to be risk free, no matter what the fluff says, because it's still a game that needs some semblance of balance.

I know there is an advantage, but there should be a larger gap at the extremes.
I am not saying she should be harm free though, 6+ is still pretty good for a model that was never meant to assault.

If you look at her rules, all her rules are fixing problems that I mentioned with the WS, the difference between WS raises her attacks = a higher hit ratio, having a higher invul save in CC = having a higher miss rate. Same thing but fixing it through special rules, other models are getting benefits in their special rules to compensate the fact that their high WS is not as useful as it should.

Troops don't have these problems is because they have a closer WS generally and the current hit ratio for them is fair.

My group always thought it was odd that WS had such a narrow range so we adjusted it...

Target's Weapon Skill

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1 4+ 5+ 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6
2 3+ 4+ 4+ 5+ 5+ 6 6 6 6 6
3 2+ 3+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 5+ 5+ 5+ 6 6
4 2+ 2+ 3+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 5+ 5+ 5+
5 2+ 2+ 3+ 3+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 5+
6 2+ 2+ 2+ 3+ 3+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 4+
7 2+ 2+ 2+ 3+ 3+ 3+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 4+
8 2+ 2+ 2+ 2+ 3+ 3+ 3+ 4+ 4+ 4+
9 2+ 2+ 2+ 2+ 3+ 3+ 3+ 3+ 4+ 4+
10 2+ 2+ 2+ 2+ 2+ 3+ 3+ 3+ 3+ 4+

Sorry, that's a bit hard to read.

Unlike BS, WS is a dual purpose skills. It has its hooks in, not only how often you hit, but how often you aren't hit. If both of these things progressed in a scale proportional to ballistic skill where each point of difference equated to a degree of difference on the dice, the Weapon Skill would be worth considerably more but it would also be harder to account for the differences. When you consider that each army only shoots once but will tend to have an assault phase that involves both parties in each turn, you can probably see how things would get out of hand quickly if the curve was sharper than it is and ended later (at 2+ and 6).

In a lot of ways the current chart is a way to mitigate Weapon Skill from being to important (as it was in Rogue Trader and 2nd Edition when no chart was used).

Basically, because assaults are more frequent (once they begin) and because the stat has more effects than BS, it is better to keep its distribution flatter and capped sooner. The only thing that would happen if this didn't occur is assaults would become much more one sided (or alternatively all assault specialists would have to become much more expensive because WS's usefulness would balloon).

So consider it a balance mechanic that allows GW to tweak probabilities along different axes. A units CC-potential is an amalgm of different stats (WS, A, I, S, AP) and its USRs. Making WS less swingy gives them an element that they can tweak to make things just a bit different without overpowering things. This allows them to use a larger range of WS without throwing things out of whack. This lets them put WS10 units on the table (who will generally hit everyone on a 3+ while only getting hit back on a 5+; which is really damn good) without having to worry about troublesome edge cases.

This is the exact same reason that T and Sv are still decoupled. Because when you have only a D6 to play with adding multiple layers and axes to a given resolution system can allow you to tweak a finer grain than merely using increments of 16.67%.

In the end the WS chart works nicely and allows for designers to make minor distinctions between units without having to wander outside of the D6 or use a resolution system that requires more than one die per resolvable-event. Changing the chart to have a sharper curve with a later cut-off would have a lot of knock-on effects in the system. As it is the stats and special rules allow them to tweak hit-rates, offensive and defensive abilities in a fairly fine grain and give us units with very different stats. Overall, the WS chart is not a really huge issue, because it is just one part of the spectrum of effects that go in to making some a CC-specialist.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
Unlike BS, WS is a dual purpose skills. It has its hooks in, not only how often you hit, but how often you aren't hit. If both of these things progressed in a scale proportional to ballistic skill where each point of difference equated to a degree of difference on the dice, the Weapon Skill would be worth considerably more but it would also be harder to account for the differences. When you consider that each army only shoots once but will tend to have an assault phase that involves both parties in each turn, you can probably see how things would get out of hand quickly if the curve was sharper than it is and ended later (at 2+ and 6).

In a lot of ways the current chart is a way to mitigate Weapon Skill from being to important (as it was in Rogue Trader and 2nd Edition when no chart was used).

Basically, because assaults are more frequent (once they begin) and because the stat has more effects than BS, it is better to keep its distribution flatter and capped sooner. The only thing that would happen if this didn't occur is assaults would become much more one sided (or alternatively all assault specialists would have to become much more expensive because WS's usefulness would balloon).

So consider it a balance mechanic that allows GW to tweak probabilities along different axes. A units CC-potential is an amalgm of different stats (WS, A, I, S, AP) and its USRs. Making WS less swingy gives them an element that they can tweak to make things just a bit different without overpowering things. This allows them to use a larger range of WS without throwing things out of whack. This lets them put WS10 units on the table (who will generally hit everyone on a 3+ while only getting hit back on a 5+; which is really damn good) without having to worry about troublesome edge cases.

This is the exact same reason that T and Sv are still decoupled. Because when you have only a D6 to play with adding multiple layers and axes to a given resolution system can allow you to tweak a finer grain than merely using increments of 16.67%.

In the end the WS chart works nicely and allows for designers to make minor distinctions between units without having to wander outside of the D6 or use a resolution system that requires more than one die per resolvable-event. Changing the chart to have a sharper curve with a later cut-off would have a lot of knock-on effects in the system. As it is the stats and special rules allow them to tweak hit-rates, offensive and defensive abilities in a fairly fine grain and give us units with very different stats. Overall, the WS chart is not a really huge issue, because it is just one part of the spectrum of effects that go in to making some a CC-specialist.

See? This is a type of answer that makes sense and is beautifully worded.
I have never actually thought of that, that actually makes more sense for the game, guess it does for fluff as well since in 2 turns the amount of CC goes up and the WS on a relatively higher WS model would stack its effect and thus being more effective.

I still think maybe tweaking it just a bit more might be worth trying and makes a tad bit more sense fluff-wise, but after your explanation this makes a lot more sense.
Thanks
Now I am a happy Archon

 tyrant of loserville wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Because skill with melee weaponry has diminishing marginal returns unlike skill at ballistics.

You'd have to be really skilled in melee to avoid getting a blow landed on you, and even then in an actual battle situation its going to be nearly impossable to avoid all blows. Just easier to land your own, and then it only helps you to a certain point.

Thats why having a WS of higher than 5 really has little effect till you hit WS 9+


Say we have 3 people. One has a Blackbelt, one has a Purple Belt, and one has a Blue belt.

If the Black belt and Purple belt were to have a competition, the Black Belt would obviously be the superior Martial Artist and likely win.

Now if the Black belt and Purple belt were to both fight the Blue belt the Blue belt would lose. There probably wouldn't be much difference in how bad the Blue belt lost to either artist. You probably couldn't tell which fighter had the Black belt and who had the Purple belt if you saw a tape of the fight between them and the Blue belt(and no identification was avaliable)

Its kinda like that. Unless the difference is close or very extreme it won't effect the outcome of the fight.

So that kinda translates.

Man, I dont know what the feth you just said little kid, but youre special.

I take a little offense to that. First off, I'm not a little kid. And second you are implying I'm stupid. I admit my post isn't clear but then again i'm sure how to make my point any clearer. Maybe it was a bad example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLRQ2v-CqSI

^^^I think that this should counter the video of a choreographed hurricanrana very nicely with a real fight that is not choreographed.

As you can see Even with a high WS vs a low WS, the thug still managed to lend a "few" shots on the cop. The same thing applies in armed melee combat.

even with no longsword training I am sure if I happen to randomly swing my blade at the same time you swing yours, we will probably hit each other.

Indeed. The only time you might not land any blows is if it was a one on one combat against a skilled swordsman without tons of distractions.

There is a big difference between fighting in a battle and fighting in a duel.

A cop is definitely not High WS...
IG is only 3WS and they are trained soldiers...

Back in 40k universe the difference between them would maybe be at most WS1 vs WS3.

Dark Eldars are genetically modified warriors who have been training since they were born and take drugs, and have super fast relexes and vision due to the environment they are in.
Clearly not the same as a normal person...

so WS 1 vs. WS 3 mean that the cop hits on 3+ and the thug on 5+.

I am pretty sure that is what I saw. When you double your opponents WS you hit on 3+ and when they double you, you hit on 5+.

so the cop against and elf they would switch roles, and the cop would still land a few shots just like the thug.

yes, that's what I am saying if the gap in WS is larger then the hit ratio for the low WS guy should be really low.

 Makutsu wrote:

If Lelith isn't earning her points, don't take her. If she was better, then she'd be worth more... would you be willing to pay 25 pts more, 50 pts, 100 pts?

How much is hitting 17% more often worth? If she IS earning her points, then the stats are working fine.

Right now, if Lelith charges a squad of tactical marines (average unit, if there was one, ignoring challenges), she gets to swing 11 times, hitting 7 times, wounding twice, killing 2.

The remaining 8 swing 8 times. Hit 4 times, wound twice, with maybe 1 getting through. Next turn Lelith kills x2, remaining 6 hit 3 times maybe wounding her once. Again she kills 2, remaining 4 hit twice, wound once, and it is her turn to save (since I've been wounding her more than I should). Next turn she kills 2, remaining 2 hit once, and might wound once, but she should save again and then kill the last.

Same points, she walks away, they don't.... maybe she dies with 2 left. That's if she's running alone and only takes on fair fights. I'd recommend you do neither and let her dominate.

You forgot overwatch though, I assume they have boltguns?
So 20 shots hits on 6s wounds on 4s, so 3.333 * 0.5 = 1.667 Wounds.

So after first turn of combat she's dead.

True, but she usually is running FNP too.

She normally doesn't, and she doesn't even do drugs so you don't even start with one.

Boyz with ws4 and you say spess mahreens be trained fer combat? Har har boyz are made fer fighting!

Using the belt reference, the black belt would get 3 attacks, the purple would get 2 and the blue would get 1.
In order WS would likely be around 5,3,2.
Think of it as after a certain point, your skill with your weapon will not affect your chances of hitting but instead increase the times you can try to hit.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
I am not saying that they shouldn't, I am saying why isn't it a 6+ and a 2+ for WS1 vs WS10, which would make more sense.

Because 6+ vs. 2+ is too one-sided, especially on top of the fact that the WS 10 model will have better weapons and armor. Limiting it to usually just 4+/3+ keeps combat dangerous for both sides and prevents "my character kills your whole squad" situations.

Fun story. I actually did that with Celestine against a mob of 20 Shoota Boyz with a Nob with Power Klaw/Bosspole. : D

Didn't even torch em up in the shooting phase prior to her charge.

The Nob was afraid to accept Celestine's repeated challenges, so he stayed out of it the whole time. Celestine killed 4 Boyz in her charge, then 2-3 every round after that until they broke with about 5 Boyz and the Nob left, and Celestine ran em down.

She was down to 1 wound by the end of the combat, though. The Boyz landed plenty of hits and always at least a few wounds, but her armor saved her from most of it.

She then tried to do the same to a mob of Boyz that was sitting on two separate objectives simultaneously thanks to being stretched out between them.

Took a Slugga round to the head while charging them, missed a turn, then got back up and torched a bunch of them and charged again, this time the Nob accepted her challenge, she whiffed, he got through her invulnerable save. Then the game ended.