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 Andrew1975 wrote:
What could also help the eldar are some vehicle aspects. Lets face it the aspect warriors came out in RT when the game was basically an infantry game. With all the vehicles now they should introduce rules for vehicle aspects.

Check the Shining Eagles aspect - not sure where it's appeared from, but they are a vehicle pilot aspect.

 Skriker wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
It was the same for a rhino or razorback, that was 75-90pts less. Only difference was only being able to fit in 5 or 6 wave serpents while marines could easily do 10+ vehicles in 1 army.

When did Rhinos and razorbacks have holofields that made them near impossible to take out?

Skriker

Wave serpents not falcons or prisms.

As for holofields, that was 4th edition when falcons and fire prisms were immortal, in 5th they werent unstoppable in the slightest, now in 6th holo fields dont even matter.

I think the jump from 2nd edition to 3rd was the hardest hit to Eldar.

THe aspect warriors of old were fantastic. The Striking scorpions were tough and could do some serious harm. Now they really don't get much field time. Dark Reapers had actual missile launchers. Warp Spiders were flamer troops. Damn nasty at that. In 2nd Eldar ran faster than humans. They moved 5 inches when humanoids moved 4. They had a 10 inch range unlike now when everyone has the same movement rules.

The Exarchs and their build what you want warrior was the best ever. Now they just don't have anything like it. I had an opponent in 2nd build a Dark Reaper Exarch with a warp spider jump pack and a powerful shuriken catalpult from the codex that did a lot of damage and he would just pop out of cover and fire before disappearing back. I know i played with dual power fisted hand to hand exarchs with warp spider packs and invulnerable saves with parry on both fists. Now its much blander and not nearly as fluffy with these characters who have fought for 100's of lifetimes with their soulstones handing down the knowledge they contain.

At its core the reason Eldar hurts is they have a crappy base weapon. The Shuriken Catapult. If it was the same as a bolter or storm bolter the Guardian squads would be somewhat scary. Right now I know they have to run up on top of me to shoot which makes them easy to charge or shoot to death with rapid fire.

Add to that the fact that the close combat units that used to be feared have had their rules chipped away at since 2nd to make them more flat line and you have a mess.

I think Striking scorps will be re written to have hammer of wrath to represent their stingers in combat. If they do that they aren't understanding their tech at all.

Eldar should be a move and shoot army from top to bottom. Nothing in their forces should be unable to move and fire its weapons. They should have loads of longer reaching powerful guns. The Tau have better guns and they are a fraction as old as humans and a speck of time considering the Eldar's species timeline.

They need to rework the whole army to be more effective and rebuild almost 80% of the miniature sets to be plastic. Their codex revision has turned into that storage room they keep saying they have to clean out but now you can't get the door open.

 Skriker wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Sorry - that was supposed to read
Things we lack on skimmers.

Everyone else can cast witchfire out of a tank and blessings while embarked. We now cannot because of the faq. Marines have access to assault vehicles and flyers. We have no assault vehicles or fliers (bar forgeworld for the fliers)
Why do you hate the skimmer tanks sooo much?
They were never that good.

Gotcha on the "on skimmers"

Ah didn't realize that on the psychics. As I said I thought that was everyone, but haven't done much with psychic powers since they came back. Thanks for the clarification.

I don't hate skimmer tanks at all. It is the holofields that always annoyed me. I benefited from them when I played eldar, but when not playing eldar they were just very annoying. If I really hate anything about it is some eldar players who seem to think that their tanks *should* be impossible to kill or that makes them totally useless which is just not true. It doesn't help that the codex is so old and prices are still so high either. The Tau get nailed with that too. Crisis suits are ludicrously expensive for something that has less survivability than an assault marine and gets a lower state line, the ability to jump back to cover and some extra weapons to compensate for it. Might find them pretty cool at maybe half the price. A lot of this stuff comes in from GW's inability to even consider balancing the point costs of forces in the game. They seem incapable of doing it over a series of Marine codecies that would be super simple to coordinate so it should come as no surprise that the xenos books would be all over the place and over costed on things.

Might make the pain a little easier to bear right now if the eldar faq included a line that said to halve all vehicle prices in the codex. Vehicles in general have become much easier to kill, it just seems to be the eldar players that are complaining the most about it.

Skriker

Don't forget that Eldar are the only army in the game that needed those Holo Fields and Energy Shields on their vehicles as the army is designed to shoot and scoot. The Eldar anti personnel weapons are not at all long ranged so the only way for them to get into combat range was to put them in vehicles and move them. Consider that they don't have the armour or toughness to foot slog all the way across the battlefield and they are not a swarm army that can soak up losses so what else have they got besides wave serpents and falcons? nothing.

Consider also that Eldar are the only race in the game except for tyranids that do not have access to even one vehicle with an armour greater than 12.

Space Marines of every variety have the Land Raider and it's variations

Imperial Guard have the Leman Russ and it's variations

Chaos Space Marines have the Land Raider

Sisters of Battle have the Exorcist

Chaos Daemons have the Soul Grinder

Necrons have the Monolith

Orks have the Battlewagon

Tau have the Hammerhead or Sky Ray

Dark Eldar have the Dais of Destruction

Eldar?...nope...sorry...no AV above 12.

Taken in that light, having Holo Fields on tanks in 5th wasn't such a bad thing as it allowed Eldar vehicles to have a passing chance of not getting destroyed by mass Strength 7 or 8 fire. Which most of the vehicles listed above either ignore completely or have very little chance of having anything done to them at all.

Never understood the point of the decreased ranges on eldar weapons. They are supposed to be *the* most technologically advanced race in the galaxy, have some amazing technology, but can't figure out how to make them deadly out to a longer range? Not buying it. I think the current Eldar codex came out of all the old school complaints of how eldar with "unbeatable" in their previous incarnation so they had to get nerfed. Only time eldar were unbeatable is when you tried to play the game their way and allowed the various aspects of the eldar army to do the job they were built for. Let banshees assault and you deserved to get spanked for not shooting them or assaulting them first. Trying to out manuever jetbikes was useless. Also panicking when the newer and cooler eldar units were seen on the table didn't help either. Warp spiders and wraithguard used to make people sweat, but both could be dealt with it you didn't freak out. Heck any unit with heavy weapons could sit back out of range of the wraithguard weapons and gun them down without fear.

So to make up for it the eldar got nerfed and they are still paying the price of their nerfing. Hopefully that will change once a new book is written.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:
Never understood the point of the decreased ranges on eldar weapons. They are supposed to be *the* most technologically advanced race in the galaxy, have some amazing technology, but can't figure out how to make them deadly out to a longer range? Not buying it. I think the current Eldar codex came out of all the old school complaints of how eldar with "unbeatable" in their previous incarnation so they had to get nerfed. Only time eldar were unbeatable is when you tried to play the game their way and allowed the various aspects of the eldar army to do the job they were built for. Let banshees assault and you deserved to get spanked for not shooting them or assaulting them first. Trying to out manuever jetbikes was useless. Also panicking when the newer and cooler eldar units were seen on the table didn't help either. Warp spiders and wraithguard used to make people sweat, but both could be dealt with it you didn't freak out. Heck any unit with heavy weapons could sit back out of range of the wraithguard weapons and gun them down without fear.

So to make up for it the eldar got nerfed and they are still paying the price of their nerfing. Hopefully that will change once a new book is written.

Skriker

The range is the killer for eldar imo. Having my footslogging Dire Avengers shot to pieces by DE warriors in a raider with twin-linked shots (roughly equal in points btw, another kick in the nads) without even getting in range is just depressing.

The shorter range was kinda balanced with older RF rules.
Now it's plain worse, especially with the latest FAQ. Every bolter unit can get cheap long range weapons to increase threat radius. Spiders, Wraithguard, Avengers went downhill because they don't bring other weapons.

Eldar need either point reduction (bad idea as it pushes them into swarm), increase the range or redo the shuri- weaponry to be more deadly.

AP system also hurts us because AP4 big blasts, templates, high RoF weapons are fine because marines shrug them and hordes don't loose that many points. We are in a sweet spot that get full damage while having the most expensive troops fully affected by it.
Heavy flamer has 83% to kill Dire Avenger and 22% to kill 13pt marine. That's a difference of 1 point (or 7%) in price.

I've got a mate in our group with a pretty effective Eldar force, but it relies on FW units to be able to really become deadly.

Hornets and Warp Hunters do wonders to level the playing field, and make up for the overcosted and mediocre-at-best Aspect Warriors.

I don't play Eldar myself, my only experience is from fighting them, and it seems the real kicker is that their infantry just don't compete.

They're of alright power level, but the points costs are way beyond their capacity. Banshees are pretty good in CC, Fire Dragons are good anti-tank in a quick moving transport, but when they're costed well beyond how good they are.

It seems to me that Eldar players are forced to rely on a couple useful units, while most of the codex sits unused outside of Apoc due to prohibitive costs. That seems to be the trend with most outdated codexes, however.

Save for Orks, that was one well balanced book.

spamthulhu wrote:
I think the jump from 2nd edition to 3rd was the hardest hit to Eldar.

The Exarchs and their build what you want warrior was the best ever. Now they just don't have anything like it. I had an opponent in 2nd build a Dark Reaper Exarch with a warp spider jump pack and a powerful shuriken catalpult from the codex that did a lot of damage and he would just pop out of cover and fire before disappearing back. I know i played with dual power fisted hand to hand exarchs with warp spider packs and invulnerable saves with parry on both fists. Now its much blander and not nearly as fluffy with these characters who have fought for 100's of lifetimes with their soulstones handing down the knowledge they contain.

At its core the reason Eldar hurts is they have a crappy base weapon. The Shuriken Catapult. If it was the same as a bolter or storm bolter the Guardian squads would be somewhat scary. Right now I know they have to run up on top of me to shoot which makes them easy to charge or shoot to death with rapid fire.

I miss the 24" -2 mod strength 4 with 1 sustained fire dice on the catapults. Guardians and Avengers could actually have a gun battle with marines.
The nastiest exarch ever was the warp spider exarch. 36" teleport. Vortex grenade.Enemy character = off.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
They're of alright power level, but the points costs are way beyond their capacity. Banshees are pretty good in CC, Fire Dragons are good anti-tank in a quick moving transport, but when they're costed well beyond how good they are.

Yeah they seem to be costed based on how good they are at their given role, but then little was included in the cost to show that they are *only* good at their given role. The easiest way to defeat eldar is to take all their specialists out of their specialty element and they fall pretty fast. I never could get used to the weakness of the characters in the army after years of playing CSMs. Would charge my general into a light walker and find that he could only barely scratch it, even with a power fist...that was painful and a lesson I kept forgetting over and over. Doh!

Skriker