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Before I begin, let's take a look at what sanguinary guard are:

- 40 points
- 2+ save jump infantry
- 2 attacks at WS4, with a 'power weapon' and 1 re-roll each.
- An S4AP4 Assault 2 bolt pistol.


So they have some bonuses:
- survivable against light arms fire and combat with non-combat units.
- kill MEQ like noone's business
- Don't run away
- Can be troops
- more likely to hit than normal infantry.

But they have some negatives as well:

- Cost as much as a TH/SS terminator
- Don't have an invulnerable save
- can't really hurt TH/SS without themselves being killed.
- Can't really hurt terminators.
- no anti-armour capabilities (realistically)

Sanguinary guard spam used to be a viable list. 30 of them and dante could be played and one could expect to win.
With new rules, they're no longer viable (in my eyes.) - they're okay, but they don't even approach usable. (there's a far better option called vanguard veterans)

I suggest, for their 40 points we make two small changes to glaive encarmines to make them viable.

- remove Master crafted
- give them AP2, striking at normal initiative.

This bonus sounds HUGE. But it really isn't. When you consider how un-survivable these guys are as a delivery mechanism for 15 S4 AP2 attacks (which is what they will normally give out.), as well as that they cannot deep-strike and assault (making them even vulnerable until they hit combat) AP2 at I4 isn't that big.

They hit 7.5, 8 times
wound 4
the opponent may fail one of their 3+ invulnerable saves.

To compensate in other units, I see at most a 5 point increase being reasonable - Units like captains don't have the same problems that these guys do, so they shouldn't be able to benefit from this solely for sanguinary guard's sake.

NB: Before you make an assumption, I never personally liked Sanguinary guard. I don't run them and I wouldn't take them if this rule was implemented.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:

Why is this worthy of a 'facepalm'?

It's not an unreasonable change at all.

I agree, actually. It's a decent change that would bring them closer to their former glory, without creating quite the same abuse scenario.

AP2 in initiative order, chaos players get enough crap from people about the axe of blind fury and that is just one weapon. You would have an army of them, not to mention every one else in the codex who has a glaive encarmine ( Sanguinor being one )

Terminators would have to strike at initiative one to effectively hurt them ( Hammers, axes and fists) but be all but dead before they get to attack. Characters and troops would have no chance at that number of attacks at AP2 initiative order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry if I sound like I am being a jerk but that's just my opinion.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
AP2 in initiative order, chaos players get enough crap from people about the axe of blind fury and that is just one weapon. You would have an army of them, not to mention every one else in the codex who has a glaive encarmine ( Sanguinor being one )

Terminators would have to strike at initiative one to effectively hurt them ( Hammers, axes and fists) but be all but dead before they get to attack. Characters and troops would have no chance at that number of attacks at AP2 initiative order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry if I sound like I am being a jerk but that's just my opinion.

Terminators take 4 wounds from this attack. On average, 3 will die. Here's a question for you:

What's a chaos player doing taking chaos terminators? Obliterators, maybe. But Chaos Terminators?

Most things have to strike at I1 to remove their armour save. So what? Right now I have to strike at I1 to remove your armour save and I don't even get an invulnerable save.

Troops (thus 3+ or worse - rare examples of 2+ armour saves are Sanguinary guard and Paladins.) already lose their armour saves, because it's AP3.

Nothing much changes. They're just able to kill the things that they were always designed to deal with.

The other models that can take them include:
Vanguard Veteran Sergeants.

That's right. Not even captains can take them.

What's wrong with Chaos Terminators?

Also I was referring to all TDA models.

And just remember that mathhammer isn't always going to be right.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:

And just remember that mathhammer isn't always going to be right.

But it is a more solid measure than 'this one time at my LGS'. I'm not saying that is what you were suggesting as an alternative, just that there isn't much to challenge mathhammer as a means of guessing the impact of a change

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
AP2 in initiative order, chaos players get enough crap from people about the axe of blind fury and that is just one weapon. You would have an army of them, not to mention every one else in the codex who has a glaive encarmine ( Sanguinor being one )

Terminators would have to strike at initiative one to effectively hurt them ( Hammers, axes and fists) but be all but dead before they get to attack. Characters and troops would have no chance at that number of attacks at AP2 initiative order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry if I sound like I am being a jerk but that's just my opinion.

Haaaave you met Incubi? 3 attacks at I5 at str 4 (5 with FC) AP 2 w/ 3+ save and usually FnP. 22pts.

You are paying 18 pts for a good bolter, 2+ and a jump pack. We have fleet, pain tokens and better transports.

I feel this would be an acceptable change to make them good. I have thrown incubi at terminators before. We kill 3 before they strike. then they chop us to bitz cause we have no Inv. Albeit we use incubi in units of 5, but still. str 4 ap isnt amazing. Each termi that survives kills a guard (2*1/2*1*5/6* dead SG) with no inv.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
AP2 in initiative order, chaos players get enough crap from people about the axe of blind fury and that is just one weapon. You would have an army of them, not to mention every one else in the codex who has a glaive encarmine ( Sanguinor being one )

Terminators would have to strike at initiative one to effectively hurt them ( Hammers, axes and fists) but be all but dead before they get to attack. Characters and troops would have no chance at that number of attacks at AP2 initiative order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry if I sound like I am being a jerk but that's just my opinion.

Haaaave you met Incubi? 3 attacks at I5 at str 4 (5 with FC) AP 2 w/ 3+ save and usually FnP. 22pts.

You are paying 18 pts for a good bolter, 2+ and a jump pack. We have fleet, pain tokens and better transports.

I feel this would be an acceptable change to make them good. I have thrown incubi at terminators before. We kill 3 before they strike. then they chop us to bitz cause we have no Inv. Albeit we use incubi in units of 5, but still. str 4 ap isnt amazing. Each termi that survives kills a guard (2*1/2*1*5/6* dead SG) with no inv.

Incubi were EXACTLY what I was thinking about when I made this change.

I have never versed Dark Eldar sorry.

I just feel a lot of the time the sanguinary are going to beat down on everything they charge.

WHAOAHAIOHA A CLOSE COMBAT UNIT DOING GOOD IN CLOSE COMBAT

WE CAN'T HAVE THAT. NUH-UH.

Its a decent change? they dont really need it take an axe if you want to kill terminators they have to take one to kill you too if you want AT just a powerfist or a few infernus pistols.

What if you could buy Relic Blades for each member? 15-20 pts for each one. It would be pretty good for them. The ability to become a 10 man squad would be awesome as well.

Lucarikx

IXLoiero95XI wrote:I have never versed Dark Eldar sorry.

I just feel a lot of the time the sanguinary are going to beat down on everything they charge.

Not really. 3 attacks at AP2 really isn't as huge an impact as you think it is.

Overlord Zerrtin wrote:Its a decent change? they dont really need it take an axe if you want to kill terminators they have to take one to kill you too if you want AT just a powerfist or a few infernus pistols.

They do really need it. They need to be good at something. Right now, all they're good at is anti MEQ. Don't tell me that that's enough - for 85 points less, I could take a flamestorm cannon baal predator which would kill that same MEQ squad much more safely. heck - I could almost take two for those points.

NB: Its very difficult to count for the 5-re-rolls, since not every man will get one. If we assume that they cause half re-rolls.

Axes, my friend, suck on sanguinary guard. - it means that the Sanguinary guard basically have to sacrifice themselves to kill 2.78 thunder hammer terminator or 5.56 tactical terminators - with axes. When those 10 power fists attacks smack down, they hit 5 times and wound will kill an average of 4.17 sanguinary guard - and that's without the charge.

With I4, the number of unsaved wounds drops to 1.25[i/] and [i]2.5 respectively - the number of casualties drops to 3.33 and 2.08 respectively

If anything, giving sanguinary guard AP2 over master crafted can reduce their overall impact, while making them a balanced fight against terminators.

Lucarikx wrote:What if you could buy Relic Blades for each member? 15-20 pts for each one. It would be pretty good for them. The ability to become a 10 man squad would be awesome as well.

Lucarikx

Relic blades are basically 2 handed power mauls with AP3.

Sanguinary Guard need a drawback, they're not meant to be going toe-to-toe with Terminators - they're a combat unit which has the mobility to dictate the combats that it wants to get in. As a result, they should not require AP2 weapons to avoid getting killed all the time. In addition, at 40pts they're reasonably balanced with Assault Marines as they have reasonably comparable damage outputs for the same cost (important as well since they are a potential scoring unit). What would help out Sanguinary Guard without making them imbalanced would be a change I have actually playtested, and that's giving them a 5++ parry save in close combat to deal with those pesky power weapons they might face off against. Oh and I also have playtested them with the ability to take 10 squad members and a Sergeant, and these ideas would help out much as well.

You should make to-wound rolls of 6 become AP2 wounds, like "rending-lite". Keep the master-crafted. Keep them at the same points. Now you'll still have trouble with 2+ save units but it's not totally worthless. Also remember that with the exception of a few weapons, most AP2 close combat weaponry is Unwieldy so you still get to strike first.

The main problem nowdays is that they are too weak and carry too weak of a punch for what they can do and what they cost nowdays all they can do are anti meq things but they will get shot down pretty quickly by a boomgun and poof there goes your huge investment of points as compared to a Baal pred or a basket of cookies that can do the same job for cheaper, more efficient, faster, and safer

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Sanguinary Guard need a drawback, they're not meant to be going toe-to-toe with Terminators - they're a combat unit which has the mobility to dictate the combats that it wants to get in. As a result, they should not require AP2 weapons to avoid getting killed all the time. In addition, at 40pts they're reasonably balanced with Assault Marines as they have reasonably comparable damage outputs for the same cost (important as well since they are a potential scoring unit). What would help out Sanguinary Guard without making them imbalanced would be a change I have actually playtested, and that's giving them a 5++ parry save in close combat to deal with those pesky power weapons they might face off against. Oh and I also have playtested them with the ability to take 10 squad members and a Sergeant, and these ideas would help out much as well.

Their drawback is that they're 40 points a model.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Sanguinary Guard need a drawback, they're not meant to be going toe-to-toe with Terminators - they're a combat unit which has the mobility to dictate the combats that it wants to get in. As a result, they should not require AP2 weapons to avoid getting killed all the time. In addition, at 40pts they're reasonably balanced with Assault Marines as they have reasonably comparable damage outputs for the same cost (important as well since they are a potential scoring unit). What would help out Sanguinary Guard without making them imbalanced would be a change I have actually playtested, and that's giving them a 5++ parry save in close combat to deal with those pesky power weapons they might face off against. Oh and I also have playtested them with the ability to take 10 squad members and a Sergeant, and these ideas would help out much as well.

Their drawback is that they're 40 points a model.

Which is fair... they take half as many wounds as Assault Marines on average, plus all have master-crafted power weapons and can score if you take Dante.

But all that it takes to make them drop dead is a boomgun and there goes your 200 points also the fact that they are now just ap 3 means that it would be better to just take twice as many assault marines with meltaguns or a baal pred with flamestorm or th/ss termis for equal or less cost and do a much more important job or the same job but better and more efficient

 A GumyBear wrote:
But all that it takes to make them drop dead is a boomgun and there goes your 200 points also the fact that they are now just ap 3 means that it would be better to just take twice as many assault marines with meltaguns or a baal pred with flamestorm or th/ss termis for equal or less cost and do a much more important job or the same job but better and more efficient

They have 2+

How are they instantly dying to a boomgun which is AP3, also that could be said of ALL marines in general, TEQ don't get the speed sanguinary guard do with a special bolter.

Why are you trying to fight TH/SS Terminators with a unit that is hard-countered by TH/SS Terminators? You have Jump Packs, just avoid them and go for something else.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
But all that it takes to make them drop dead is a boomgun and there goes your 200 points also the fact that they are now just ap 3 means that it would be better to just take twice as many assault marines with meltaguns or a baal pred with flamestorm or th/ss termis for equal or less cost and do a much more important job or the same job but better and more efficient

They have 2+

How are they instantly dying to a boomgun which is AP3, also that could be said of ALL marines in general, TEQ don't get the speed sanguinary guard do with a special bolter.

A boomgun will id them with its s8 and their t4

And it is said about meq in general but they dont cost 200 points for five of them and teq have a nice invul save to keep them alive

The problem with them is that you are paying 200 points for five assaul marines with MC power swords and 2+ saves they are just like Triarch Praetorians for necrons. Too weak of a platform and not enough punch for the points you are paying


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The main point is that there are much cheaper, more efficient, and safer things that do the same job as they do now.

 A GumyBear wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
But all that it takes to make them drop dead is a boomgun and there goes your 200 points also the fact that they are now just ap 3 means that it would be better to just take twice as many assault marines with meltaguns or a baal pred with flamestorm or th/ss termis for equal or less cost and do a much more important job or the same job but better and more efficient

They have 2+

How are they instantly dying to a boomgun which is AP3, also that could be said of ALL marines in general, TEQ don't get the speed sanguinary guard do with a special bolter.

A boomgun will id them with its s8 and their t4

And it is said about meq in general but they dont cost 200 points for five of them and teq have a nice invul save to keep them alive

The problem with them is that you are paying 200 points for five assaul marines with MC power swords and 2+ saves they are just like Triarch Praetorians for necrons. Too weak of a platform and not enough punch for the points you are paying


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The main point is that there are much cheaper, more efficient, and safer things that do the same job as they do now.

...you know they get their save against instant death right...?