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all the immobile units, the units that benefit from not moving for the whole much such as (previously stated) broadsides. it just takes more effort to take down that pesky unit of shooters than to just assault them and dust your hands off. I'm not sure why you haven't seen bastions around alot, its not something very new per se

Luide wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
Agreed that you are not fearless,which is why I run a fearless model on top. Leaping off causes a wound on a 3 or less. The faq states to treat the battlement as separate

It tells you to treat them separate from the building, not separate building. Major difference.

 Sarigar wrote:
and tells us to refer to the battlement rules, which is where it specifically explains a battlement is treated as a separate building.

Yup. Shame about the next entry on the FAQ that says battlements are not buildings at all.

BRB FAQ wrote:Q. What is the armour value of battlements? (p95)
A: Battlements have no armour value as they are not a building.

 Sarigar wrote:
Bit wonky in their explanation, but the rules are clear.

No, the rules are definitely not clear. BRB rules state that Battlements are a separate building. BRB FAQ states that Battlements are not a building at all. FAQ overrides BRB, so we have quite wonky situation where it is pretty hard to say exactly what rules apply to battlements.

I got to looking over the FAQ after I made my last post and noticed there was an additional FAQ regarding the battlement's armor value, which has none. Mud in my eye and I'll concede the Bastion is a single building. Very strange FAQ as it flatly contradicts the rulebook, which appeared quite clear. My first read was it indicated as two separate buildings, but the battlement provided a cover save (opposed to not being able to target a unit in a building), no fire points and units not fearless. However, GW appears to have rewritten the battlement rules in an FAQ and then tells you to refer to the battlement rules in the rulebook.

This does have one significant change to some tactics. It is easier to penetrate the bastion with a Manticore, but still difficult to bring it down (as the Manticore is AP4). Definitely will be something I need to figure out. But, on the positive, this has been about the only occasion that I would have to worry about. I don't see many folks bringing massed lascannons.

Do you have to have your entire unit inside/on top of it or can you mix it? I would imagine you could since you cant use the gun on top without being up there (at least at a better than BS2)

 zachwho wrote:
I've been seeing a new trend where bastions are becoming more and more popular on the Web.
Why? Other than getting a quad gun upgrade, what makes the bastion any good?
Seemsseems like an immobile piece if junk to me...


Any help thanks guys

It take a squad of long fangs/havocs and changes them from something fragile to something that's nearly impossible to dislodge at range.
This changes the overall "cost" of the unit from 115 to 190. It makes the unit cheaper than a land raider, with more firepower but less mobility.
It also unlocks a quad-gun/com-relay.

Is it worth it? Well, that's up to you, and the meta that you face.

A unit can only be at one place at a time, either in or on top.

If it doesn't fit on top, you're not allowed.

Something I hadn't noticed before was that you're allowed to go straight to the roof if you enter through the access point at ground level.

As others have mentioned, a LOS blocking piece of terrain is very helpful if you don't know what your going to be playing on.

I have used my bastion before to hide my DP before the game begins, so he can start on the board without getting shot to bits before he can get into the air. This is helpful as it gives the DP an extra turn of effect in the game.

Also, I want to comment on the 'comm relay'. This piece of gear is extremely important, and often is overlooked. Being able to manipulate your reserves allows you to increase the chance of success of a reserve roll to 8/9, or decrease it to a 45% of reserves coming in.
This can be really hepful when your trying to keep that unit of grots off the board so they don't get shot to bits -- since their just objective campers.

This can also be really helpful when your trying to bring your army onto the board. Nothing sucks more than your flyers staying off the board until turn 4.

Meh my idea flopped then. Would need 2 groups of grots to pull it off heh which would block off the roof for lootas in the process.

Still wouldnt be a bad idea though, since it fires more shots and hits harder than lootas anyway (hits harder due to TL). I imagine the autofire if im in base contact with it would be up for debate...since it doesnt say i MUST use it manually if im in contact.

Luide wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
Agreed that you are not fearless,which is why I run a fearless model on top. Leaping off causes a wound on a 3 or less. The faq states to treat the battlement as separate

It tells you to treat them separate from the building, not separate building. Major difference.

 Sarigar wrote:
and tells us to refer to the battlement rules, which is where it specifically explains a battlement is treated as a separate building.

Yup. Shame about the next entry on the FAQ that says battlements are not buildings at all.

BRB FAQ wrote:Q. What is the armour value of battlements? (p95)
A: Battlements have no armour value as they are not a building.

 Sarigar wrote:
Bit wonky in their explanation, but the rules are clear.

No, the rules are definitely not clear. BRB rules state that Battlements are a separate building. BRB FAQ states that Battlements are not a building at all. FAQ overrides BRB, so we have quite wonky situation where it is pretty hard to say exactly what rules apply to battlements.

What line in the BRB states that it's a building? I always assumed that it was True Line of Sight, and a 3+ cover (page 18, cover chart) if you're in the battlement.

Krall wrote:
What line in the BRB states that it's a building?

Page 95, first paragraph, second sentence: Building with battlements is a multiple part building.
Note that this is not strictly true anymore.

Krall wrote:
I always assumed that it was True Line of Sight, and a 3+ cover (page 18, cover chart) if you're in the battlement.

I assume you're talking about models getting cover. Yes, that is pretty easy. Though FAQ states that battlements only provide 4+ cover anymore.

The wonky stuff happens when you try to figure how assaults and battlements work after that "battlements are not a building" FAQ. But that is a can of worms I don't want to open.

I think their intention was to stop battlements from being damaged separately from the building, but obviously this is just speculation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vineheart01 wrote:
Still wouldnt be a bad idea though, since it fires more shots and hits harder than lootas anyway (hits harder due to TL). I imagine the autofire if im in base contact with it would be up for debate...since it doesnt say i MUST use it manually if im in contact.

Gun emplacements, like the Quad-gun / Icarus lascannon on top of Bastion or ADL cannot auto-fire. Only emplaced weapons may do so. While easily mistaken for each other, they're two completely separate things and follow completely different rules.

Luide wrote:

Krall wrote:
What line in the BRB states that it's a building?

Page 95, first paragraph, second sentence: Building with battlements is a multiple part building.

Oh, yeah. Considering that essentially every line after that says "models in battlements, **unlike** in buildings," I interpreted that to mean that it's a building with a flat open space on top. I don't really see any of the confusion that you're describing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luide wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vineheart01 wrote:
Still wouldnt be a bad idea though, since it fires more shots and hits harder than lootas anyway (hits harder due to TL). I imagine the autofire if im in base contact with it would be up for debate...since it doesnt say i MUST use it manually if im in contact.

Gun emplacements, like the Quad-gun / Icarus lascannon on top of Bastion or ADL cannot auto-fire. Only emplaced weapons may do so. While easily mistaken for each other, they're two completely separate things and follow completely different rules.

Are you saying that Gun Emplacements are not Emplaced Weapons? Where are the different rules for Gun Emplacements that do not follow the rules for Emplaced Weapons?

Gun Emplacements - pg. 105
Emplaced Weapons - pg. 96

Krall wrote:

Luide wrote:

Krall wrote:
What line in the BRB states that it's a building?

Page 95, first paragraph, second sentence: Building with battlements is a multiple part building.

Oh, yeah. Considering that essentially every line after that says "models in battlements, **unlike** in buildings," I interpreted that to mean that it's a building with a flat open space on top. I don't really see any of the confusion that you're describing.

No, page 92 is explicit that multiple part building are treated as two or more buildings joined together. It even makes explicit references about battlements being buildings in their own right. They are/were special type of buildings though, as their rules state. But before FAQ, it was possible to destroy battlements separately from the building. FAQ though made them not-buildings, so they don't take damage on their own.

Krall wrote:
Are you saying that Gun Emplacements are not Emplaced Weapons? Where are the different rules for Gun Emplacements that do not follow the rules for Emplaced Weapons?

Yup. Shandara gave the page references, 105 and 96 respectively. This is something many people have missed, as GW in their infinite wisdom decided to use terms that are sound more or less same.

Luide wrote:

Krall wrote:
Are you saying that Gun Emplacements are not Emplaced Weapons? Where are the different rules for Gun Emplacements that do not follow the rules for Emplaced Weapons?

Yup. Shandara gave the page references, 105 and 96 respectively. This is something many people have missed, as GW in their infinite wisdom decided to use terms that are sound more or less same.

Note the FAQs have also clarified this to some extent.

Main FAQ wrote:Q: Can you shoot at a gun emplacement on a Bastion’s roof?
(p116)
A: Yes – see page 105 for a gun emplacement’s profile. It
can also be destroyed by certain results on the Building
Damage Table.

Q: Can a unit occupying a Bastion manually fire a gun
emplacement (eg. quad gun) on the Bastion’s roof? (p116)
A: No – a model must be in base contact to manually fire a
gun emplacement, therefore the unit must be on the
Bastion’s roof.

Also, the original Tyranid FAQ said they couldn't manual fire "emplaced weapons" but now it says "emplaced weapons or weapon emplacements"

I was thinking that they could provide some defense against Choas Flamers but wouldn't the flamers just end up glancing the bastion to death?

Bastions, why not?

Minijack wrote:

But basically my boys got the crap shot out of them(as usual,friggen oped tau!,lol)

HA! oped tau. HA!

 Shandara wrote:
Gun Emplacements - pg. 105
Emplaced Weapons - pg. 96

Gun Emplacements are the same as Emplaced Weapons.

BRB FAQ:

Q: Can you shoot at a gun emplacement on a Bastion’s roof?
(p116)
A: Yes – see page 105 for a gun emplacement’s profile. It
can also be destroyed by certain results on the Building
Damage Table.

Pg 94 of the BRB has the building damage table. The only references in the building damage table state "emplaced weapon". Both are identical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or probably more accurately, Gun Emplacements are T7 models that contain Emplaced Weapons. Since all Emplaced Weapons can automate firing, then all Gun Emplacements can autofire.

If two separate sets of rules equate to identical to you.

This has been discussed in YMDC though and any discussion about it is best left to there.

 PipeAlley wrote:
I was thinking that they could provide some defense against Choas Flamers but wouldn't the flamers just end up glancing the bastion to death?

Re-read the part on building damage, glances and pens work differently then on tanks. there is no such thing as "glance to death", at the very worse it's glancing the people inside to death, only a pen result has a chance to destroy a building.

(and though I don't remember flamer S value, I doubt it can hurt the AV14 of the bastion...)

Flamers do work on Fire Points though, making the unit inside take hits.