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My crypt ghoul was locked in a combat with skull crushers and my zombie squad. as shown.



Is there any rule that compells the crypt ghoul to move to this next position to maximize combat and between the units where the blood crushers could get more hits upon the crypt ghoul and possibly kill it.

Models that are already in BtB with an enemy model cannot move from their position. No sliding is allowed per the rules.

However, you would have had to maximize when the initial charge took place.


As it is, it is perfectly acceptable to have the goul where he is.

Yes on the charge the 6 ghouls I had go into the combat they were maximized. This is what was left after 2 rounds of combat.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Models that are already in BtB with an enemy model cannot move from their position. No sliding is allowed per the rules.

You can do a combat reform to that position if you wanted to because your unit center doesn't need to remain in the same spot but you are not compelled to.

As far as I remember, a combat reform - any reform - can only be executed by increasing or decreasing ranks/columns, ie. by changing a units formation. Single models cannot do that, so as Matt said, no sliding.

Please read the FAQ.

WHFB FAQ 1.7 wrote:Page 55 – Combat Reform, Reforming From Victory.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to “A
combat reform is essentially a standard reform (page 14), save
for the fact that the centre point of the reformed unit does not
have to stay in the same place.”

The part where it says the center doesn't have to be in the same space is the part that allows sliding. So when reforming, you can go from the first picture to the second as a perfectly legal move, so long as you either win combat or make your Ld test. Also, it never says that a single model may not make a reform anywhere in the rule book or FAQ.

The only thing to remember is that you cannot reform so as to have less models on either side attacking. That means you cannot go from picture two to picture one.

You also can't take models that were in combat out of combat.

Ok. thanks.

That is what I believed and the way we played it. I didnt want to give the crushers extra attacks on the Ghoul if I could help it. I figured I could, if I wanted to move him to the center after I did a combat reform with a leadership test as I had been losing combat but chose not to.

Yeah, the whole single model sliding thing is kind of a gray area in my opinion. The "slide" that other units can do is the result of models theoretically moving positions, with the unit being slid out of convenience.

It isn't totally clear to me that a single model would be able to "slide" with this justification. It isn't really changing formation, and there's not even virtual model movement there.

 Hellstorm wrote:
Please read the FAQ.

I already did but I do not think it is pertinent to this debate.

The part where it says the center doesn't have to be in the same space is the part that allows sliding.

Not at all. Where the centre is or could be is irrelevant. The unit in question still needs to be able to reform, which it does by changing its formation (and in turn by increasing or decreasing its ranks). Single models cannot do that. Neither is sliding mentioned anywhere. Of course it does not say "you can't", firstly because it is a permissive system and almost always only says what you can do, and secondly because the mechanism by which units reform doesn't apply to single model-units.

I realize that it is often played differently, and if someone points out a way to change the formation of a single model, I'll take everything back in a heartbeat but at this point, that's my call.

Mike, if you're right, then what is the purpose of stating that the center point of the unit need not stay in the same place? Is there a way to change formation by increasing or decreasing ranks in which the initial center point of the unit moves?

Actually, its impossible to add or reduce ranks in combat and keep the center the same.

If I add ranks, maintaining the center of the unit as is will push the unit forward (i.e. ranks would have to add equally to the front and the back). Which it couldn't do without pushing away the unit it is fighting.

The easiest way to think about this is a 5 wide unit that is 10 ranks deep engaged to its front. If it instead wanted to go 10 wide, 5 deep, it would need to effectively spin about its center, which would pull it out of combat.

Yeah, but the wording of the FAQ suggests that a "normal" reform includes "not moving the center." Obviously, you can reform to face a unit in another direction, in which case the center point stays in the same place, but if you can also reform to add or remove ranks then it doesn't.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
Not at all. Where the centre is or could be is irrelevant. The unit in question still needs to be able to reform, which it does by changing its formation (and in turn by increasing or decreasing its ranks). Single models cannot do that. Neither is sliding mentioned anywhere. Of course it does not say "you can't", firstly because it is a permissive system and almost always only says what you can do, and secondly because the mechanism by which units reform doesn't apply to single model-units.

I realize that it is often played differently, and if someone points out a way to change the formation of a single model, I'll take everything back in a heartbeat but at this point, that's my call.

You're right, it is a permissive system. So lets find permission to reform. These are given on page 14 for a normal reform and page 55 for combat reform (with an add on from the FAQ). Here are some other permissions that go along with it:

p. 14 you can arrange them into as many ranks as you please. So I can reform 1 rank of 1 guy into 1 rank of 1 guy because that is what I want.
p.55 (FAQ) your unit center need not remain in the same place.

Now we look for restrictions. According to you, we should find a sentence somewhere that states "single models may not reform". Well lets look. Here are all the restrictions I can find:

p.14 it has to be a unit of troops. As long as one model remains, it is still a unit of troops.
p. 14 can't move more than 2x my movement. I don't plan on it, I just plan on moving 2"
p.55 you cannot move a model out of contact that was in contact.
p. 55 (FAQ) may not contact a different facing.

That is all the restrictions i can find on reforming. So lets summarize: You may make a reform in combat, the unit center may move (left to right is still moving and thus legal), single model have no rules saying they may not reform (usually they just pivot so they don't need to reform to change direction), and i am not required to change the formation of the unit. If i have missed something please give me an exact page number and paragraph number so I may find it.

The FAQ is there to allow a "normal" R'n'F unit to combat reform. Before this FAQ, it simply could not legally do that because contrary to a standard reform, the centre always changes when one side remains where it is.

 Tangent wrote:
Yeah, but the wording of the FAQ suggests that a "normal" reform includes "not moving the center."

Precisely.

Obviously, you can reform to face a unit in another direction, in which case the center point stays in the same place, but if you can also reform to add or remove ranks then it doesn't.

Yes, it does. Say you reform from a horde to a bus, then you need to add ranks - "extend" the unit - equally to the front and the rear. It's quite likely that the front is now closer to the enemy that caused you to reform than before, and it can at times be difficult to get into the formation you want with other units or terrain in the way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hellstorm wrote:

I can reform 1 rank of 1 guy into 1 rank of 1 guy because that is what I want.

Please stop right there. A reform by necessity means a changing formation; you're not changing changing formation. I'm sure that is what you want but I'm not going to argue this sophistry any further.

What you actually want is to slide, to move the model sidewise while it is in combat, and the problem remains that there is no rule which allows you to move or slide a single model in this way. Combat reforming my Steam Tank from one rank into one rank, yeah, right...You make da call, I've made mine.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

 Hellstorm wrote:

I can reform 1 rank of 1 guy into 1 rank of 1 guy because that is what I want.

Please stop right there. A reform by necessity means a changing formation; you're not changing changing formation. I'm sure that is what you want but I'm not going to argue this sophistry any further.

What you actually want is to slide, to move the model sidewise while it is in combat, and the problem remains that there is no rule which allows you to move or slide a single model in this way. Combat reforming my Steam Tank from one rank into one rank, yeah, right...You make da call, I've made mine.

All you've said is that you don't like it; you have not given any rules that support your argument. I have given valid rules to support my side and tried to look for your reasoning in the rules. This point is very clear in the rules and is allowed.

Based on your argument, if your steam tank is hit in the flank you cannot reform to face the enemy because you must change the amount of ranks and files you have. Because it is a single model you cannot.

Hellstorm, turning a single model isn't really the issue.

Obviously, changing facing is changing formation. Or at least it seems obvious to me.

I think you can probably agree there's some ambiguity to whether a single model can perform a "slide" as part of a reform. It has not changed facing, ranks, or files, so how is it really defined as a reform. At least when a unit "slides" there is some virtual shifting of model positions within the unit to be able to argue that the formation has changed.

Ok, Mike, so...

You've got a unit of 40 models in horde formation, 10 wide and 4 deep. You want to reform to a bus that's 5 wide and 8 deep. You take models from the side of the unit and add them to both the front AND the back as necessary in order to keep the center of the unit in the same place. The only real restriction that's pertinent, here, is that you cannot extend the unit to the front (effectively "moving" the unit forward, sorta) beyond a certain distance. Right? And this is with a "normal reform" where the center of the unit must stay in the same place.

You're saying that a "combat reform" only removes the restriction of the center point for that same 40-model unit. So, if that unit in horde formation wants to reform to bus formation, it obviously can't add models to the front (because it is in combat). It can instead remove them from the sides and add them to the back, extending the unit to the rear but NOT to the front, effectively moving the center point.

That's what you're saying, right?

Not speaking for Mike, but that *is* how you would reform, assuming you didn't leave fewer models in close combat.

Its only permissible since the FAQ permitted combat reforms to change the center of the unit.

So, the assertion here is that you can't "slide" the unit over, but what if you did a combat reform to move models from the left side of the unit to the right side, effectively "sliding?"

Yeah, that's generally accepted as a legitimate move. The question is that if you don't have any ranks to reorganize (i.e. are a single model) can you still make that virtual slide?

Ahhh, I see the argument now. In the OP's pics, I took those squares to be units of multiple models, not single models.

 Hellstorm wrote:

All you've said is that you don't like it; you have not given any rules that support your argument. I have given valid rules to support my side and tried to look for your reasoning in the rules. This point is very clear in the rules and is allowed.

What I have pointed out is that the mechanic by which a reform is carried out only works if you have at least one rank of more than one model. You have not presented any valid rule that supports the notion that not changing formation = changing formation. Of course you can hold the opinion that logic must not apply to rules but then everyone can argue that he can shoot after moving because shooting = not shooting. That's the same as saying a single model reforms its formation even though it does not.

Based on your argument, if your steam tank is hit in the flank you cannot reform to face the enemy because you must change the amount of ranks and files you have. Because it is a single model you cannot.

Ah, but there is a difference! Before we were concerned with the position and formation of the unit. A reform can be used to change the facing without changing ranks. I left that out because it was not pertinent to the previous situation - that monster or character could not get into the centre of the unit it was fighting by pivoting anyways, and it would be most peculiar if it wanted to fight to its flank.

 Tangent wrote:
Ok, Mike, so...

You've got a unit of 40 models in horde formation, 10 wide and 4 deep. You want to reform to a bus that's 5 wide and 8 deep. You take models from the side of the unit and add them to both the front AND the back as necessary in order to keep the center of the unit in the same place. The only real restriction that's pertinent, here, is that you cannot extend the unit to the front (effectively "moving" the unit forward, sorta) beyond a certain distance. Right? And this is with a "normal reform" where the center of the unit must stay in the same place.

That's my interpretation, yes. As you can see, there are at least two camps on this issue, and I'm the least to call himself the relevant authority. For all practical purposes, I'd discuss this with my opponent beforehand (if I remember to, as it isn't the only problematic area in the rules).

You're saying that a "combat reform" only removes the restriction of the center point for that same 40-model unit. So, if that unit in horde formation wants to reform to bus formation, it obviously can't add models to the front (because it is in combat). It can instead remove them from the sides and add them to the back, extending the unit to the rear but NOT to the front, effectively moving the center point.

Yes and no. While the centre point restriction is gone, it depends on what kind of formation they are fighting against. If that is another horde, you cannot remove models from the fight (or was that B2B - I forget). If fighting a bus (5 wide), the "slimmest" they could reform to would be 7 wide. But that's a sidetrack, in principle that's how I see it.

 Tangent wrote:
So, the assertion here is that you can't "slide" the unit over, but what if you did a combat reform to move models from the left side of the unit to the right side, effectively "sliding?"

As Red_Zeke says, that's usually considered okay, although I readily admit that this muddies the water a bit. Because if you allow this slide, why not the other? It's not as crystal clear as it could be (nothing new in the west!).

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
Because if you allow this slide, why not the other?

Which "other" are you referring to? Are you referencing the situation with only one model in combat?

Yes.

Well, if you allow the "slide" that I suggested, you're allowed to take models from one side and put them on the other. With only one model there is no "other side" - you can't put a model on the other side of itself, which is the only way it could "slide."

The point you guys seem to be making is that you must rearrange your unit in order for it to count as a reform but it never says that in the rules. It only states that you are allowed to, not that you're required to. If I were to declare a reform in the movement phase but I didn't change facing or rearrange my unit did I reform? The answer is yes because I declared it, took the penalties for it (e.g. no shooting, no other moving), but choose not to get any bonuses. For combat reforms, that same applies. You may rearrange your unit, you may change its facing (as long as you are contacted in the flank or rear), and your unit's center point may move. All of those are options; they are not mandatory or requirements. Nowhere does it say that you must do one of those. These same kinds of rules can be found elsewhere, like the magic phase. When you generate power dice, you may cast spell A, you may cast spell B, you may cast spell C, you may choose not to cast any spells at all.

Do I agree that the rules are written VERY poorly? Yes. Do I agree that it could be written better? Yes. Do I think that GW is horrible when it comes to rules? Yes. Are we every going to see an errata or FAQ for this? Probably not. Until then, we try to understand what they have written and try to look at it with out any assumptions. We should only look at it as if it were exact and everything did as it said without interpretation being needed. But what can you do, this isn't WarmaHordes.

Why did the OP want to keep the chaos guys swinging on the T3 (wounded on 2+) zombies, and not hitting the ghouls (wounded on 3+)?

Seems like the fight wound have gone better dumping more poisoned attacks into the foe and letting him hit the harder to kill ghouls.
You do more damage (more combat res) and take less damage (less crumble).

Just doesn't seem to make sense.

-Matt

The picture represents 1 crypt ghoul with 1 wound left against 2 crushers at full health vs some 20 or so zombies. I wanted to keep him where he was because only one crusher could attack him and the other crusher would have to attack the zombies. If I would have repositioned him in the middle both crushes could swing and finish him.

The question seems to move from "Do I have to combat reform?" to "Am I allowed to cr?" and back again. Whatever one thinks about the second question, the first and original one seems to have been answered, oui?

 Hellstorm wrote:
The point you guys seem to be making is that you must rearrange your unit in order for it to count as a reform but it never says that in the rules.

It's the other way around, Hellstorm: It never says that you can reform by not reforming/rearranging/changing facing. As a matter of fact, it doesn't say you can shoot without shooting, or move without moving.

It says you are allowed to do that by a, b or c. Either one of them is therefore required - the option you believe is there I cannot find.

You may rearrange your unit, you may change its facing (as long as you are contacted in the flank or rear), and your unit's center point may move. All of those are options; they are not mandatory or requirements. Nowhere does it say that you must do one of those.

Yes, all of these are options. Not chosing one of the allowed options but one that is not described to get the same result is not an option. Pick one if you want to reform. If you want to move from A to B, you will have to do that (only one way to do it). If you want to shoot, you will have to pick up the dice (only one option, too). If you want to reform, do so (pick one of three).

When you generate power dice, you may cast spell A, you may cast spell B, you may cast spell C, you may choose not to cast any spells at all.

But your argument is that you can cast a spell (=reform) by not casting a spell (=not reforming). Can you cast a spell by decree? No. If reform & magic work the same, can you reform by decree? No. Same premises, same result.