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I was in my second tournament yesterday and they allowed Imperial Armor. My first match was against Imperial guard with squadrons of Gun Emplacements that looked like they were taken off the top of his Manticore Tanks. While looking over his list it seemed that they were significantly less points than actual manticores at the cost of maybe 1 armor value, even though they are immobile they were ordnance and range 60in so they didn't need line of sight. And some how they were able to shoot through cover and kill all my lootas. Tabled by turn 3.

I'm not sure if this is just me, but it seemed really OP. In the tournament I believe they tabled everyone they played against. But they also tabled the other person who brought some imperial armor so I guess it could be they were just that good.

The tournament was a small local game store and there were 8 teams in total.

I dont think IA is over powered in general. Some things might be a little OTT, such as the dreadnought drop and such, but thats the same as in any codex, such an grey knights cheesyness, IG vendettas, etc, overall I find imperial armour and FW stuff in general to be perfectly balanced, if not a little under powered. I think a part of it is the "fear of new things" and having something like that sprung on you mid game is a bit nasty, next time I'd ask him about them when you see him deploy them, although in all fairness he should explain them to you at deployment, as anyone should do with their army, IA or not.

This thread comes up wayyyy too often....I notice you're a really new used though, so it's passable...a simple search would have shown you the 300 mostly closed threads on IA. Please understand though, by opening this thread you have doomed us all to more RAGE from two opposing sides. Now that the disclaimer is out of the way...

Is IA OP? A few things are poorly balanced, like the Imperial Guards gun platform things that you saw (and I play IG so im calling my own stuff OP now) because they don't cost much more than HWT's and things but bring so much better stuff, but it's not overkill. It can catch you by surprise, but from now on you will know what they are and can fight them. However, I find most of it to be rather under-powered. The only good IA stuff tends to be the platforms and the occasional flier. Other than that, a lot of it tends to be weaker than it's codex variant. It's just a gimmick for FW to sell overpriced resin imo. OP is being thrown around WAY too much now a days.

OP, just curious, how was everyone's reaction to the player? Did you talk to the tourny manager afterwards? If it had a bad effect on the scene, you could simply request that FW mini's are not allowed in the next one. I imagine TM would prefer that as many people as possible have fun, and if you've got some guy showing up with cheesy FW models, that might detract from that.

Also, I'm in agreement that FW models go from good to bad. We really don't need to have another discussion about that.

Generally speaking, IA is slightly overcosted compared to codex units, but, like codex units there is some cheese, and IA does generally help imperial armies more than Xenos.

First and foremost: "Overpriced"." Overcosted? Does that even sound like a word to you?

That out of the way, "fear of new things" as a previous poster put it seems to run rampant. After a few complaints to the manager of my FLGS he now bans any and all FW units from his tournaments. A real shame too, because most of the IA stuff isn't that bad (Even if Sabre turrets are FAR, FAR, better than their HWT equivalents, for not much more points.).

Yes it sounds like a word to me, the term overcosted is used on gaming forums often enough to be a part of Dakka's lexicon.

OP, consider your local meta, is it generally laid back with people bringing fluffy or semi-competitive lists, or is it primarly very competitive lists. It sounds like your opponent brought a very cheesy list to a much more casual gaming scene. If so, than it's really the player, not the book he uses, and complaining about FW won't improve the situation, as it could very well be Scythe Spam, Daemon Spam etc. next tourney.

Cheesedoodler wrote:
First and foremost: "Overpriced"." Overcosted? Does that even sound like a word to you?

Considering the English language is always changing, he may be trying to gain acceptance for the term 'Overcosted'

Eventually, if it catches on and people start to use the word regularly, then it will become an accepted part of everyday speech.

The same has happened with the word 'bad' Its meaning has evolved and it now has a dual meaning, the traditional 'bad' is the opposite of good, where, in some context, 'bad' is a synonym of good.

Cyberspace was not a word before the early 1980's but it has found a home in the English language.

 Necroshea wrote:
OP, just curious, how was everyone's reaction to the player? Did you talk to the tourny manager afterwards? If it had a bad effect on the scene, you could simply request that FW mini's are not allowed in the next one. I imagine TM would prefer that as many people as possible have fun, and if you've got some guy showing up with cheesy FW models, that might detract from that.

Also, I'm in agreement that FW models go from good to bad. We really don't need to have another discussion about that.

After letting it sit for a bit it seems that there would have been better strategies I could have done to take on such a group. At the same time, there were about 8 teams all together. 2 used imperial armor that I know of.

Everyone else's reactions seemed to be steer clear of these guys. When we had a lunch break, everyone who lost their first match happened to go to the same place. We talked a bit and a lot of them felt the same way about imperial armor especially the one who went up against the second IA player. He faired a bit better than I did.

When the two IA players went up against each the guy I went up against tabled the other one. Myabe if I had some blast templates that could shoot through cover and didn't require line of sight I could do some damage. Possibly a shokk attack gun, because they did have units clumped together.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Cheesedoodler wrote:
First and foremost: "Overpriced"." Overcosted? Does that even sound like a word to you?

Considering the English language is always changing, he may be trying to gain acceptance for the term 'Overcosted'

Eventually, if it catches on and people start to use the word regularly, then it will become an accepted part of everyday speech.

The same has happened with the word 'bad' Its meaning has evolved and it now has a dual meaning, the traditional 'bad' is the opposite of good, where, in some context, 'bad' is a synonym of good.

Cyberspace was not a word before the early 1980's but it has found a home in the English language.

Pretty much this, people make up new words all the time (Overcosted has been used by wargamers for at least a few years now), I believed that it was a better choice than overpriced, as that implies monetary value, which, given the wording of the offending sentence would have changed the meaning entirely.

No, IA units are not OP.

Most aren't OP.

Some are.

Lower percentage overall that in standard 40K overall i think, and they look better too.

Unfortunately the OP ones are the only ones you get to see as a whole, as they get spammed the moment FW is allowed at a tournament

This is one of the reasons so few folk like to play vs FW. If they only ever see the OP FW stuff they are less likely to want to play the non-OP stuff, and as FW aren't codexes (lets not ge the 'official' gak going again) they are less likely to accept them.

Personally i don't minf playing against FW units as a whole. I'd rather play against most FW units than against the GK/Necron/Vendetta spam gak i tend to run into at some places.

No, the IA units aren't overpowered. You were going to get tabled the same way whether they brought Manticore platforms or Manticores, simply because you brought orks with no way of dealing with hidden artillery. Normal codex artillery would have done the same thing, hide out of LOS and table you. The gun is exactly the same as the codex Manticore, the only difference is that it's slightly cheaper in exchange for much less durability.

Oh, and the reason he "ignored" cover was because it's a barrage weapon, just like the codex Manticore. Unless you mean that he ignored area terrain/KFF that your models were inside (not merely behind), in which case the problem is a cheating opponent, not an overpowered IA unit (since Manticore platforms don't ignore cover, they're just barrage weapons).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ascalam wrote:
Most aren't OP.

Some are.

Lower percentage overall that in standard 40K overall i think, and they look better too.

Unfortunately the OP ones are the only ones you get to see as a whole, as they get spammed the moment FW is allowed at a tournament

This is one of the reasons so few folk like to play vs FW. If they only ever see the OP FW stuff they are less likely to want to play the non-OP stuff, and as FW aren't codexes (lets not ge the 'official' gak going again) they are less likely to accept them.

Personally i don't minf playing against FW units as a whole. I'd rather play against most FW units than against the GK/Necron/Vendetta spam gak i tend to run into at some places.

Most aren't OP.

Some are.

Higher percentage overall that in standard FW overall i think, and they look worse too.

Unfortunately the OP ones are the only ones you get to see as a whole, as they get spammed the moment codex armies are allowed at a tournament

This is one of the reasons so few folk like to play vs codex armies. If they only ever see the OP codex stuff they are less likely to want to play the non-OP stuff, and as codex armies aren't IA books (lets not ge the 'official' gak going again) they are less likely to accept them.

 Chronepsis wrote:
No, IA units are not OP.

And what would you call Infernus Shells prior to them being so heavily nerfed?

The Kriege Siege list is also pretty damn mean, even if it is a one-trick-poney. (it's still one helluva trick!)
Some regular codices simply don't have answers for the few OTT options FW has put out. Orks for example routinesly get pounded flat by a siege list since it's one of the perfect hard-counters to a horde army.

Overall FW is pretty good. But just like every mainstream GW codex, it does have it's few excesses that when pushed to the max and/or spamed ad nausium, leads to boring games of one person simply playing at their opponent, instead of playing with them.

Cheesedoodler wrote:
First and foremost: "Overpriced"." Overcosted? Does that even sound like a word to you?

Overcosted is a word. It's a cost accounting term and is a much better word to use in this case than overpriced.

"Product overcosting: a product consumes a low level of resources but is reported to have a high cost per unit"


Anyway, when you don't know how to handle things they can hit you hard, so without playing against a unit a few times you can't get a good feel for wether it is OP or now.

Brings a horde army against a Guard force loaded with artillery. Complains its overpowered. XD

Yes, three manticores can do a lot of damage, but there's nothing to stop anyone from taking them normally. A player could easily take nine Basilisks too. A person that had to face off against a horde of orks without artillery would probably start calling OP on them...

Just flipped through my copy of IA again... Anyone take a look at the Contemptor Mortis dread? Dear sweet lord! If it wasn't for the fact that buying one (and all it's separate parts) from FW cost two arms and your first child, I think we'd be seeing them all over the place.

BS 5, 13/12/11 armour, if it doesn't move it gains both Skyfire AND interceptor, it has a 5++ save EVERYWHERE, and I can arm it with two twin-linked lascannons and a Cyclone for a mere 200 points?! Honest to god this has to be the best AA platform in the game.

^^ Not to mention all of it's other potential loadouts.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Brings a horde army against a Guard force loaded with artillery. Complains its overpowered. XD

Considering the guy also tabled a Space Marine and Imperial Guard Army...yes.

The two guys who tabled in round 1 went up against each other in what you would assume might have been an even fight. But wound up in another table.

After listening to what people have been saying about Barrage weapons on Area terrain I think the guy was unintentionally cheating. I never have gone up against barrage weapons except for once and since it was against a unit in open terrain I never bothered to actually look up the rule. I most likely would have still lost, but in the end I would probably have been tabled turn 4 instead of turn 3.

Cheesedoodler wrote:
Just flipped through my copy of IA again... Anyone take a look at the Contemptor Mortis dread?.

Yes. It's a good unit that can be get to land raider costs and promptly killed with a single lascannon. I've put it on the table once and lost it to the opening volley from a vendetta. It had made its points before that, though, having killed a Leman Russ, and the contents of two chimeras that other units opened for it..

See the links in my signature for 43 pages worth of excellent forge world discussion. Enjoy!

There is nothing in IA that is more OP than what can already be done within the GW codices.

Vendettas are the prime example.


To say that FW is OP requires you to believe that stuff that is in the codices is balanced, which is objectivly false.

FW and IA arn't OP, just different. Which is what really gets people.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There is nothing in IA that is more OP than what can already be done within the GW codices.

Vendettas are the prime example.


To say that FW is OP requires you to believe that stuff that is in the codices is balanced, which is objectivly false.

FW and IA arn't OP, just different. Which is what really gets people.

Well, admititdly Infernus Shells were completely broken...

Did it hit you? Ok, make an automatic fall back move!
But you're Fearless?! Well, aparently fire still scares you, so just go ahead and run away.

Those things were about as balanced as combining the Power Scroll + flying Death Wizard against Lizzies/VC/TK/Ogres/Dwarfs was before it's special nerfing!

I recall one local tournament a few years ago before FW faq'd the Infernus Shells, a guy brought as many Infernus Shell upgrades as he could take. If he went first, it was pretty much game over against most any list since his heavy weapons would open up transports, and then he'd shell everything else off the table...
So FW rules got banned at the local FGS because of that one donkeycave.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Well, admititdly Infernus Shells were completely broken...

Yeah, but how many years ago was that? Way back in 4th edition?

Cheesedoodler wrote:
Just flipped through my copy of IA again... Anyone take a look at the Contemptor Mortis dread? Dear sweet lord! If it wasn't for the fact that buying one (and all it's separate parts) from FW cost two arms and your first child, I think we'd be seeing them all over the place.

BS 5, 13/12/11 armour, if it doesn't move it gains both Skyfire AND interceptor, it has a 5++ save EVERYWHERE, and I can arm it with two twin-linked lascannons and a Cyclone for a mere 200 points?! Honest to god this has to be the best AA platform in the game.

^^ Not to mention all of it's other potential loadouts.

215 with the Kheres Assault Cannons.

220 with Lascannons.

Mortis are fairly strong for their points, but I still debate with myself all the time if the 35pt CML is worth the cost.

Crazyterran wrote:

Cheesedoodler wrote:
Just flipped through my copy of IA again... Anyone take a look at the Contemptor Mortis dread? Dear sweet lord! If it wasn't for the fact that buying one (and all it's separate parts) from FW cost two arms and your first child, I think we'd be seeing them all over the place.

BS 5, 13/12/11 armour, if it doesn't move it gains both Skyfire AND interceptor, it has a 5++ save EVERYWHERE, and I can arm it with two twin-linked lascannons and a Cyclone for a mere 200 points?! Honest to god this has to be the best AA platform in the game.

^^ Not to mention all of it's other potential loadouts.

215 with the Kheres Assault Cannons.

220 with Lascannons.

Mortis are fairly strong for their points, but I still debate with myself all the time if the 35pt CML is worth the cost.

It absolutely certainly is. Because of the wording of Skyfire, you want as many separate weapons as you can get. You can skyfire with your CML, and then still fire your arm weapons during your turn (or vice versa). Not to mention if you decide to bring lascannons for anti vehicle/flyer work, you can still fire two frag missiles for anti-infantry. Being a walker you can move and fire all three of your weapons every turn. Certainly worth the 35 pts IMHO.

Cheesedoodler wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

Cheesedoodler wrote:
Just flipped through my copy of IA again... Anyone take a look at the Contemptor Mortis dread? Dear sweet lord! If it wasn't for the fact that buying one (and all it's separate parts) from FW cost two arms and your first child, I think we'd be seeing them all over the place.

BS 5, 13/12/11 armour, if it doesn't move it gains both Skyfire AND interceptor, it has a 5++ save EVERYWHERE, and I can arm it with two twin-linked lascannons and a Cyclone for a mere 200 points?! Honest to god this has to be the best AA platform in the game.

^^ Not to mention all of it's other potential loadouts.

215 with the Kheres Assault Cannons.

220 with Lascannons.

Mortis are fairly strong for their points, but I still debate with myself all the time if the 35pt CML is worth the cost.

It absolutely certainly is. Because of the wording of Skyfire, you want as many separate weapons as you can get. You can skyfire with your CML, and then still fire your arm weapons during your turn (or vice versa). Not to mention if you decide to bring lascannons for anti vehicle/flyer work, you can still fire two frag missiles for anti-infantry. Being a walker you can move and fire all three of your weapons every turn. Certainly worth the 35 pts IMHO.

The only thing that sucks is that if you get Skyfire you hit at BS1 against ground targets...

 Red Comet wrote:
The only thing that sucks is that if you get Skyfire you hit at BS1 against ground targets...

You also get interceptor.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:
The only thing that sucks is that if you get Skyfire you hit at BS1 against ground targets...

You also get interceptor.

Oh I didn't know that. That's really really good then to have CML and some other weapon.

The drawback is they need to stay still to get it. Meaning the range may be a limiting factor and you won't be moving that turn.

Which could limit the Dreadnought's participation elsewhere.

 Red Comet wrote:

Cheesedoodler wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

Cheesedoodler wrote:
Just flipped through my copy of IA again... Anyone take a look at the Contemptor Mortis dread? Dear sweet lord! If it wasn't for the fact that buying one (and all it's separate parts) from FW cost two arms and your first child, I think we'd be seeing them all over the place.

BS 5, 13/12/11 armour, if it doesn't move it gains both Skyfire AND interceptor, it has a 5++ save EVERYWHERE, and I can arm it with two twin-linked lascannons and a Cyclone for a mere 200 points?! Honest to god this has to be the best AA platform in the game.

^^ Not to mention all of it's other potential loadouts.

215 with the Kheres Assault Cannons.

220 with Lascannons.

Mortis are fairly strong for their points, but I still debate with myself all the time if the 35pt CML is worth the cost.

It absolutely certainly is. Because of the wording of Skyfire, you want as many separate weapons as you can get. You can skyfire with your CML, and then still fire your arm weapons during your turn (or vice versa). Not to mention if you decide to bring lascannons for anti vehicle/flyer work, you can still fire two frag missiles for anti-infantry. Being a walker you can move and fire all three of your weapons every turn. Certainly worth the 35 pts IMHO.

The only thing that sucks is that if you get Skyfire you hit at BS1 against ground targets...

Wait, hold on... what? Since when does SkyFire make you BS1 to ground? That makes no sense at all, especially on a Dreadnought. The quadgun is certainly not BS1 to ground.

Cheesedoodler wrote:
Wait, hold on... what? Since when does SkyFire make you BS1 to ground? That makes no sense at all, especially on a Dreadnought. The quadgun is certainly not BS1 to ground.

Since the rules for Skyfire, on P. 42, say you can only snap shot at ground targets if you have this rule (Unless you also have Interceptor).

So basically since 6th ed came out.

The only reason the Quadgun is not BS1 to ground targets is because it also has the interceptor rule.