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Hello
just a quick question? can anyone tell me in the rule book are mega nobs and normal nob mobs characters
as i need to kill a chaos warlord on a bike with murder sword and mark of nurgle with a posse of 5 chaos bikers without losing my warboss before he even gets to hit something
this is my plan charge his unit in a trukk accept challange with normal mega armour nob then smash the rest of his unit with warboss and friends
can i do this
thanks
if anyone has any better ideas that would be great
we are only playing 1000pts

1. They are characters so can accept the challenge
2. You are unlikely to get the charge since you can't run (mega armour = slow and purposeful) and he has a 12 inch move.
3. If he suspects your dastardly plan he will challenge with his own unit champion instead of his lord
4. or more likely he will drive his lord into base to base with your warboss and therefore still benefit from the murder sword bonus even in the challenge (bonus is applied whenever you are in base to base contact with the target of the murder sword).

thanks for the advice
its nice to know about the nobs character rule
do you know were you read this
think i will give it a go as cant see how to deal with it any other way and its a chance
as we have chosen armies for a campaign and cant change only can add too
thanks

You should find it listed in notes in Ork section in the indexes in the back.

Per the FAQ, they are only Characters when taken as the upgrade and not in units.

In case you were thinking about running a unit of Mega Nobz or Nobz to deal with his unit.

Thanks akar
thats not so great just read it
back to the drawing board
cheers

Not sure if the Murder Sword is AP 2 or not. I hung up my CSM Codex and Army for having the only one that isn't legal from the previous version. If it's not, the Meganobs are still the way to go. Otherwise a unit of Lootas is good, and generally recommended in most Ork armies now.

You can of course include both a warboss and old zogwart and just try to squig his warlord. If I know I am going against annoying warlords it's the only time I use Zoggie anymore since they punted his testicles.

The murder sword isn't that good really, your best shot would be to only disembark the meganobz and charge the bikes, leaving the boss on the trukk will deny him from activating the sword and a few klaw nobz with 2+ save shouldn't have a hard time dealing with bikes, you can afterwards attach the warboss to the unit and roam free of worries

Thanks lord yayula
thats a really cool idea and thats what i am going to do
next wednesday
cheers

Yup, the murder sword being AP3 means he will have a real hard time making a wound and even if he does it's STR4 so only one wound, besides the lord the bikers probably nurgle means they have standard # of attacks and since there is no char on your unit, he can't challenge to save him on the first round, unless he is fielding 5+ bikes and the lord it should take 1 charge from 5 nobz to kill them all

Even if you have the Boss in Mega Armor, as long as he's not your Warlord keep him in the unit and issue/accept the challenge.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Yup, the murder sword being AP3 means ...

Except that the sword becomes AP2 instadeath 2+ to wound when you are in base to base contact with the target. So if the lord on his bike gets the charge then he will put his lord into the warboss and even if he accepts/issues a challenge he still gets to fight with the sword in uber mode.

More likely he will move his lord on bike into your warboss (base to base contact)
Then issue a challnge with the unit champion (the chaos biker champion that comes with the unit)
Then he resolves the chaos lords attacks against the orc unit, the closest model is the warboss (assuming the lord isn't touching anyone else)
Then you have to make look out sir rolls against the instadeath hits.

The only way to deal with it is to bubble wrap your warboss to make sure he cant get into base to base contact.
Your very unlikely to get the charge on the lord unless your opponent is blind

Didn't know that about the Sword. So would a unit of MegaNobz take the hits at AP2, or just the ones in base contact with the Lord?

The models in a challenge are ONLY in base contact with eachother.

wtnind wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Yup, the murder sword being AP3 means ...

Except that the sword becomes AP2 instadeath 2+ to wound when you are in base to base contact with the target. So if the lord on his bike gets the charge then he will put his lord into the warboss and even if he accepts/issues a challenge he still gets to fight with the sword in uber mode.

Uhmmmm, OP says his unit is riding on a trukk, which is open top and an assault vehicle so he has as many chances of charging as do the bikes, actually unless he blows the trukk (which isn't that hard with it being AV10) he won't be able to charge the nobz. What i'm suggesting is leaving the boss on the trukk and only unload the nobz for the charge, if the nobz alone charge the bikes there is no way the lord can get the AP2 from the murder sword, meaning they'll die on the first turn due to it being AP3 vs sv 2+.

wtnind wrote:
More likely he will move his lord on bike into your warboss (base to base contact)
Then issue a challnge with the unit champion (the chaos biker champion that comes with the unit)
Then he resolves the chaos lords attacks against the orc unit, the closest model is the warboss (assuming the lord isn't touching anyone else)
Then you have to make look out sir rolls against the instadeath hits.

If the warboss is in challenge, which it'll be if the champion declares the challenge the wounds made by the lord with the murder sword can't touch the warboss while in challenge, so no wounds for the warboss even if it's the closest model since challenges are only considered to be in btb with each other. The outcome would be the same thou, the murder sword being ap2 kills the nobz, the warboss destroys the chaos champ and if the warboss doesn't run on the next fight phase the lord challenges the warboss and kills him.

Still, all can be avoided by leaving the warboss behind, any sv2+ unit can deal easily with the murder sword

 Lord Yayula wrote:

If the warboss is in challenge, which it'll be if the champion declares the challenge the wounds made by the lord with the murder sword can't touch the warboss while in challenge, so no wounds for the warboss even if it's the closest model since challenges are only considered to be in btb with each other.

So far correct.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
The outcome would be the same thou, the murder sword being ap2 kills the nobz, the warboss destroys the chaos champ and if the warboss doesn't run on the next fight phase the lord challenges the warboss and kills him.

Nope, this doesn't happen. As you correctly said in previous paragrah, model with murder sword is not in base to base contact with the warboss, therefore it is only murder sword is AP3, not AP2. Meaning nobs are very much alive and your Lord is pretty likely dead from all the PK hit he is getting.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Still, all can be avoided by leaving the warboss behind, any sv2+ unit can deal easily with the murder sword

No, murder sword can be avoided by just having single additional character in the squad.

Luide wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
The outcome would be the same thou, the murder sword being ap2 kills the nobz, the warboss destroys the chaos champ and if the warboss doesn't run on the next fight phase the lord challenges the warboss and kills him.

Nope, this doesn't happen. As you correctly said in previous paragrah, model with murder sword is not in base to base contact with the warboss, therefore it is only murder sword is AP3, not AP2. Meaning nobs are very much alive and your Lord is pretty likely dead from all the PK hit he is getting.

I remember there was a debate regarding this but i never followed it to the end. I'm on the side that there a big difference between being considered and actually being there. Not exactly on the murder sword, but there was also a thread that stated you couldn't charge a character in challenge because they are considered to be in btb only with each other meaning a charging unit could never get into btb to engage, so you need to take a side on if the challengers on btb are only cosidered for effects/wounds/hits but still occupy an space on the table and can be in contact with other models and therefore interact with btb rules.

Edit: Actually a little offtopic... but how will that new rule for the DA work that they have to be in btb to gain +1T, under your logic would that mean even if they are all tight if I challenge a DA character he loses the +1T?

Luide wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Still, all can be avoided by leaving the warboss behind, any sv2+ unit can deal easily with the murder sword

No, murder sword can be avoided by just having single additional character in the squad.

Any unit with sv2+ without the selected character from the murder sword will beat it. Another option as you said is to have a sv 2+ character on the same unit to take the challenge. However some units like the meganobz have no character therefore can't avoid the challenge. If that other character isn't sv2+ he'll die to the sword and on the next challenge it'll kill his target.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

Luide wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
The outcome would be the same thou, the murder sword being ap2 kills the nobz, the warboss destroys the chaos champ and if the warboss doesn't run on the next fight phase the lord challenges the warboss and kills him.

Nope, this doesn't happen. As you correctly said in previous paragrah, model with murder sword is not in base to base contact with the warboss, therefore it is only murder sword is AP3, not AP2. Meaning nobs are very much alive and your Lord is pretty likely dead from all the PK hit he is getting.

I remember there was a debate regarding this but i never followed it to the end. I'm on the side that there a big difference between being considered and actually being there.

There is no ingame difference between "counts as X" or "considered X" and "X". If you try to argue there is actual difference between those, you will very quickly see that pretty much all rules break completely.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Not exactly on the murder sword, but there was also a thread that stated you couldn't charge a character in challenge because they are considered to be in btb only with each other meaning a charging unit could never get into btb to engage,

Actually, that is far more complicated situation. You could, for example, argue that the "Moving charging models" only requires contact, not base contact. Anyway, not being able to charge characters in challenge might be completely valid RAW viewpoint. I see no reason to make huge, game changing interpretions of rules to just so you can "fix" one corner case. Besides, it's trivial to houserule. Just take it up with your opponent before match or ask TO how it works.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
so you need to take a side on if the challengers on btb are only cosidered for effects/wounds/hits but still occupy an space on the table and can be in contact with other models and therefore interact with btb rules.

That is extremely poor argument. It is pretty clear from both FAQ's that GW wanted to have the challenges work as completely separate combats and that includes removal of all B2B affecting rules.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Edit: Actually a little offtopic... but how will that new rule for the DA work that they have to be in btb to gain +1T, under your logic would that mean even if they are all tight if I challenge a DA character he loses the +1T?

Yup. Apparently he can't hide behind his compatriots shields while in challenge.

Have just re-read the challenge rules. It says "For the duration of the challenge [combatants] are considered to be in base contact only with each other".

Sadly this does seem to mean that the murder sword wouldnt activate (assuming the warboss is fighting the unit champ in a challenge)
It also means that that +1 T effect? it wouldnt work
It also means that if a lone character charges a unit and challenges, nobody else can charge into the combat because they can't make base to base contact (pretty slowed)

Theres also potential high jinx available since you get to swap models around before the challenge starts potentially letting you air lift out your warboss by swapping him with the nob at the back (not sure this would work in all cases but maybe:
"If possible, swap the challenger for a friendly model in base contact with the callengee. If this cannot be done, swap the challengee for a friendly model in base contact with the challenger".

wtnind wrote:
Theres also potential high jinx available since you get to swap models around before the challenge starts potentially letting you air lift out your warboss by swapping him with the nob at the back (not sure this would work in all cases but maybe:
"If possible, swap the challenger for a friendly model in base contact with the challengee. If this cannot be done, swap the challengee for a friendly model in base contact with the challenger".

The IC is needs to be engaged in the combat to accept the challenge, so he needs to be in base contact, or within 2" of someone in base contact. He should not have to move that far.

Consider the following.
WB = warboss
b = orc boy
N = Nob



Before the challenge is issued the sword is in uber mode.

If the Lord challenges, you can air lift the WB out by swapping him with the Nob to power down the sword:


If the unit champion challenges you can accept with your WB and still end up out of btb, so powering down the sword:

(actually thinking about it you would probably be swapping the bikes around rather than the WB in this case but the result is the same - powered down sword).

In fact the only way you can keep the sword in uber mode is to be in base to base contact with both the nob and the warboss and challenge with the lord (which would be practically impossible in this scenario although later on in the fight with pile in moves it could easily happen)

So basically, if you want to be a badass Chaos Lord take khorne and the axe of blinding fury instead.

wtnind, in those scenarios the Warboss is not moving that far.

But you are correct that the murder sword is not active because it is not in Base contact with the Warboss

Thanks for all the advice
now i have a idea on how to deal with it