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 AduroT wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Don't think there's anything that went up in price when switching to plastic. Most everything stayed the same price per box, but shifted to a five or ten man box, instead of three or six.

I think the worst I've heard of is Winterguard Rifle Corps which remain $50 after switching to plastic, which is most odd because the thirteen man Winterguard Infantry is also $50 despite having three more guys than the ten man Rifle Corps.

The Prime 'jacks certainly went up in cost at the switch to plastic, the Cryx one went up 25%.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Don't think there's anything that went up in price when switching to plastic. Most everything stayed the same price per box, but shifted to a five or ten man box, instead of three or six.

I think the worst I've heard of is Winterguard Rifle Corps which remain $50 after switching to plastic, which is most odd because the thirteen man Winterguard Infantry is also $50 despite having three more guys than the ten man Rifle Corps.

The Prime 'jacks certainly went up in cost at the switch to plastic, the Cryx one went up 25%.

Yup.

That is because PP doesn't do yearly price updates so you were actually paying 2003 prices for metal models instead of 2012 prices. If you would compare older metal warjacks with newer ones the price difference was ridiculous for no apparent reason!

My local game store is pretty much only board games on one night of the week, and cards and roleplaying every other night. Wargaming has dried up, as the only miniatures game they ever promoted was Warhammer, and those of us who did play there have all gotten fed up with the store and left (manager actually asked local players to go in and purposely lose [they had already left, and he tried to get them back in only to lose] to drum up sales for him, without offering them any incentive). That's what employees are for: to play and lose to drum up sales (if anybody is going to do it, that is).

The game store that I LIKE is an hour away, but the guy has almost as large a collection of WM/H as he does Warhammer/40K. He also has a large section of Fantasy Flight, including Dust and a large collection of LCGs. Follow this up with Infinity, Malifaux and Mantic getting places on his shelf, and I'd much rather go there. From my understanding, he does still sell more GW-but not by much anymore.

Herzlos wrote:
It's still very much GW and historics over here (Scotland/UK). I think I've seen one RPG store with Warmachine stuff, and no infinity anywhere. I try to go to most of the local conventions and it's the same story; lots of GW resellers (most 2nd hand though), and lots of historics, but very little else in terms of sci-fi.

Im wondering if we're living in alternative Scotlands here mate! Where abouts are you based? I can tell you for a fact that there is a booming warmachine/hordes scene here in Edinburgh, and quite a number of folks play in Glasgow, Perth, St. Andrews and Dundee. A lot of folks travel for tournaments between the places.

Maybe you're not seeing the scene i see because you don't know the right people?

Regarding actually buying it, again, no offense but you are quite wrong. there is Worlds at War in Livingston, outside edinburgh for all your warmachine, hordes, malifaux, infinity, dystopian wars, dropzone commander (soon! he tells me), flames of war and other historicals. And he carries a great stock/selection with it. There are other places that sell in Edinburgh and Glasgow as well, with few hassles. Im not certain about further up north but i can easily find out.

But if you're in or around the Edinburgh area, there are quite a few clubs that regularly host warmachine, hordes as well as 40k and WFB, and a host of other games. if you're interested, just let me know.

My local store is a GW so it doesn't count. I am located in the East Bay of the San Francisco Bay Area, the next closest independent store sells both but say there is almost never a game down there mostly Card Games and RPGs though they do sponsor a yearly tournament for WHFB/WH40k/Warmahordes. The next closest independent store sells all 3 but says 40k is barely played there, fantasy hasn't been played in years but Warmahordes is being scheduled 3 nights a week, though when I go in during the work week around noon which I have done a dozen times no one is playing. Now my local GW store usually has a game (if not 2-3) going on all the time, though right now with 6th releasing it is mostly 40k. The difference between the GW store and the independent store is if I have an issue with a figure they will help me. I recently needed assistance building 2 metal screaming skull catapults, went in talked to the new GW manager he said to come in the next day as early as possible and we sat down and built them. Since fantasy at the store is slow he told me to come in after they open during the week and he will play a game with me. The independent store employees are usually too busy stocking, the owners probably don't want to pay their employees to play. Don't want to hijack the thread with a GW v. Independent Store deal but as a mainly fantasy player Independent stores don't make me feel very welcome. Having said that cost is huge, I can't get people into GW games because no one wants to drop $200 for a 750-1000pt army to get their foot in the door, with Warmahordes you buy a $40 battlebox and can check out the game.

I seldom visit my FLGS, but what I gather, WHFB was number one until 5th edition 40k. Now it's 40k, FoW, Blood bowl and WHFB. WM/H seems quite miniscule at least for now. Couple of years ago one guy said he was the only Warmachine player in entire city.

 Mr. Grey wrote:
I don't know it's necessarily because the US favors US-based companies and game systems. From what I've heard, WH40K is hugely popular here in the States, particularly when it comes to space marines.

The closest LGS to me (about an hour away) has about equal retail space dedicated to PP and GW stuff. They also have a decent little section for Infinity, along with the required RPG and boardgame sections, and of course behind the counter is loaded with cards. I dont get there often because of the distance, but next time Im there Ill have to go over to the table side and see whats actually being played.

Here in my house the favorites are Song of Blades & Heroes and Heroscape. We just got our Blackwater Gulch kickstarter load, but havent assembled or played the stuff yet. It looks like Im about to dump a load of 40k stuff, mostly because most of what I want is Forgeworld. Will probably also go ahead and finish the wifes Chaos Daemons army too.

EDIT: I also have some 15mm WWII tanks and a set of generic tank rules I made that I still need to do some playtesting on...

 NAVARRO wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
It's still very much GW and historics over here (Scotland/UK). I think I've seen one RPG store with Warmachine stuff, and no infinity anywhere. I try to go to most of the local conventions and it's the same story; lots of GW resellers (most 2nd hand though), and lots of historics, but very little else in terms of sci-fi.

You shoud try salute, great way of getting into all scifi trends etc.

I've been toying with visiting salute, but it'd involve flights and overnight stays so becomes painfully expensive even before I go mad at the stalls

I can imagine that, travelling in the UK is quite expensive. If you manage to find the extra cash you will not regret what salute has to offer, its something memorable and I cannot recall any better place to be introduced to hundreds of new ranges, games etc.

I'll make it down at some point (might save up for next year and make a longer trip of it). The fact it's the same weekend as the London Marathon doesn't help either though, as the hotels are all more pricey than normal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadnight wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
It's still very much GW and historics over here (Scotland/UK). I think I've seen one RPG store with Warmachine stuff, and no infinity anywhere. I try to go to most of the local conventions and it's the same story; lots of GW resellers (most 2nd hand though), and lots of historics, but very little else in terms of sci-fi.

Im wondering if we're living in alternative Scotlands here mate! Where abouts are you based? I can tell you for a fact that there is a booming warmachine/hordes scene here in Edinburgh, and quite a number of folks play in Glasgow, Perth, St. Andrews and Dundee. A lot of folks travel for tournaments between the places.

Maybe you're not seeing the scene i see because you don't know the right people?

You're probably right and I'm just missing it. I'm a funny set up as I work in Edinburgh but spend more free time in Glasgow, and live between the two. I've only been into a club once, locally, and the Edinburgh Games Hub twice, and most of the Hub games were 40K (there was some folk playing Dust though).

All of the shows I've visited: Targe (kirrimuir), Carronade (Falkirk), Claymore (Edinburgh), Wappinshaw (Glasgow) have been mostly 40K and historics, but I know they are mostly run by historics clubs.

Regarding actually buying it, again, no offense but you are quite wrong. there is Worlds at War in Livingston, outside edinburgh for all your warmachine, hordes, malifaux, infinity, dystopian wars, dropzone commander (soon! he tells me), flames of war and other historicals. And he carries a great stock/selection with it. There are other places that sell in Edinburgh and Glasgow as well, with few hassles. Im not certain about further up north but i can easily find out.

But if you're in or around the Edinburgh area, there are quite a few clubs that regularly host warmachine, hordes as well as 40k and WFB, and a host of other games. if you're interested, just let me know.

I've heard of Worlds at War, and I'm not too far away but I've never actually been, so I'll need to try and find it. Are there any Edinburgh clubs handy for the city centre and not running too late?

 AduroT wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Don't think there's anything that went up in price when switching to plastic. Most everything stayed the same price per box, but shifted to a five or ten man box, instead of three or six.

I think the worst I've heard of is Winterguard Rifle Corps which remain $50 after switching to plastic, which is most odd because the thirteen man Winterguard Infantry is also $50 despite having three more guys than the ten man Rifle Corps.

If I remember right, the Rifle Corps has more separate parts than the infantry which could lead to the price tie.

It seems that in Europe Warmachine/Hordes may not have taken off as much as it has in the States? Purely from anecdotal evidence. Why is that do you think?

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
It seems that in Europe Warmachine/Hordes may not have taken off as much as it has in the States? Purely from anecdotal evidence. Why is that do you think?

Not really, over here the only system that rivals WMH in number of tournament participation is FoW.

WHF, that was without a doubt the most played system a few years back, has declined steadily ever since 8th was released and 40K as virtually disappeared after a very brief resurgence when 6th came out.

There are a few people dabbling with Infinity, Saga, Bolt Action and Dystopian Wars but no tournaments so far.

I think that WHF didn't take off in some other European countries due to the prevalence of GW stores on said countries, but since we never suffered from that particular problem there was no outside incentive to stick with GW games.

I played 40k from 1997 till 2010 no stop. But in January of 2010 I started to get into warmahordes. I got tired of GW's crazy price increases and how a new army will always destroy the previous armies. So in 2011 I started to cull my 40k and sunk that money into warmahordes. Now that I have zero GW product now I have no regets because warmahordes is such a great game I have no regrets.

Any game is as expensive as you want it to be but warmahordes is so much easier to get into. Plus their 2 player starter boxes are a much better deal than anything GW has come up with within the past 10 years. In all honesty till GW starts to be a bit more realistic on their price points it will continue to drive people to other games.

Herzlos wrote:

You're probably right and I'm just missing it. I'm a funny set up as I work in Edinburgh but spend more free time in Glasgow, and live between the two. I've only been into a club once, locally, and the Edinburgh Games Hub twice, and most of the Hub games were 40K (there was some folk playing Dust though).

this is actually quite amusing, in a good way

you work in edinburgh, hang out in glasgow, and live in the middle of the two. Well, with all due respect mate, but get your arse over here to Livingston. there's two clubs that do warmachine in Livi alone - worlds at war on a tuesday from 2 or 3 onwards, and also at the weekend, and there is Battleground, on a friday evening/saturday morning. seems like a perfect fit for you.

i also know of some glasgow gamers - i think they play at one of the universities, but i can find the details for you without too much hassle.

Herzlos wrote:

All of the shows I've visited: Targe (kirrimuir), Carronade (Falkirk), Claymore (Edinburgh), Wappinshaw (Glasgow) have been mostly 40K and historics, but I know they are mostly run by historics clubs.

Skirmish in Livi had a warmachine tournament, and Worlds at War do a fairly frequent tournament (one a month to two months at the very least) that attracts nice numbers. We've got our two local pressgangers who do a very good job of organising things. I know more about the convention scene in Ireland where i hail from, but i get the impression they're less developed here in these pagan lands. regardless, they're probably the wrong places to be looking. Like i said, check out worlds at war and other spots.

Herzlos wrote:

I've heard of Worlds at War, and I'm not too far away but I've never actually been, so I'll need to try and find it. Are there any Edinburgh clubs handy for the city centre and not running too late?

its in craighouse, about 5 minutes from the motorway. you should go, if you're in the area - we've got a good bunch of guys and girls there. like i said, tuesdays and weekends mainly, unless you want to organise a game another evening too. and we have a facebook page - if you're interested, i'll PM it to you - its always good to get fresh victims... er players

as to ediburgh clubs, there is the hub (normally on a friday from what i hear - i normally dont play there - i work in Livi so Livi is a perfect spot for me for a post-work game) and there is also the Edinburgh League of Gamers (ELG) that meet at the RAF club on the London road (just off the very top of Leith walk, so its slap bang in the middle of the city) on wednesday evenings. feel free to turn up any time after 6.30 or 7 until about 10ish.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
See, That is what Ticks me off, People say PP is cheaper, it is not. I still see gigantically stupid prices. It may only costt 100$ to get in, But it will cost you the same to expand as it would a GW game.

That WGRC box will, if you use all 10 men, give you 8 points towards an army.

The typical game/tournament sizes are 25, 35 and 50 points.

Given how large a chunk of an army that box is, it isn't surprising people say PP are cheaper for an army, while individual models may be closer to GW price points.

We dont have any War machines/hordes or Infinity in my club. We do have however have a good number of FoW and All hail Cesare player plus Pike & Shot players. So all in all we have a good and blended crowd when it comes to games, but the general agreement is that GW & Walord games are the main ones.

The FLGS where I go most often has seen a similar migration, though not as dramatically as mentioned by the OP. I do not have access to his sales numbers, but I can see what is stocked on the walls and what people are playing when I visit.

5+ years ago, the store only had a small number of tables, and gaming was largely 40K dominated. Occasionally, there were groups that played other systems that came out, but they were definitely not very common. Today, the owner has a larger space with ten full sized gaming tables available pretty much all the time, and space for another 8-10 if there's a tournament. On any given day, you'll see pretty much anything being played. In the last two years, there has been a dramatic increase in skirmish games other than Warmahordes; there has been an increase in Malifaux, Infiniti, Dark Age, and even games like Bushido. I think its likely that GW games are still the largest single game maker being played, but the total number of players doing skirmish games have to be at least as common as the GW players.

My friendly local is predominantly 40k atm. We all have fantasy and WM/H armies in the beginnings as well.

 Easy E wrote:
Well, mos tof the stores I walk into locally are composed of the following:

1. CCGs at the counter
2. One wall of GW
3. One wall of Warmachine
4. Back wall a mix of Pathfinder, FFG Games, other Board Games, and Flames of War.

Nothing else. It seems this "renaissance" of wargames only happens on the internet.

Well said.

Mine usually consists of Warhammer and 40k for the main wall, then Ancients, Warmachine/Hordes and Flames of War as the smaller games

the other one I got to just consists of Ancients, Warmachine/Hordes and Flames of War.

But I don't see why all this PP vs GW crap keeps popping up (even if thats not what the OP was intending. It always seems to go that way. But as Easy put it, I guess it really only happens on the internet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what really bugs me, is when people start spouting "PP is way cheaper then GW" which is just totally wrong. The game is awesome and the models are two but they have just as stupid pricing as GW does.

And last time I recalled, the starter box... for lets say, Khador, was 90 NZD.... 90 flippen bucks for three models.

 Dysartes wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
See, That is what Ticks me off, People say PP is cheaper, it is not. I still see gigantically stupid prices. It may only costt 100$ to get in, But it will cost you the same to expand as it would a GW game.

That WGRC box will, if you use all 10 men, give you 8 points towards an army.

The typical game/tournament sizes are 25, 35 and 50 points.

Given how large a chunk of an army that box is, it isn't surprising people say PP are cheaper for an army, while individual models may be closer to GW price points.

Point is though. They are not cheaper. An army may cost less, but its still not cheaer model wise. Their paint is better though.
IDK, I guess I'm just mad over hearing about how the employees at my store try to push people away from 40k and over to Warmachine. Just because they like it more.

 Poppabear wrote:
And last time I recalled, the starter box... for lets say, Khador, was 90 NZD.... 90 flippen bucks for three models.

Might wanna go for the Battle Box in the future. About the same as GW's starter box (Dark Vengeance).

Poppabear wrote:[
And last time I recalled, the starter box... for lets say, Khador, was 90 NZD.... 90 flippen bucks for three models.

2 of those are "dreadnoughts" though

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Point is though. They are not cheaper. An army may cost less, but its still not cheaer model wise. Their paint is better though.

but if the army costs less, then it is cheaper? neh?

My stance? a thirty-five point "army" will set you back a lot less than a 1500point army. but then again, unlike with 40k, where people seem to settle on "the list", and they play that "army" exclusively for months on end without really swapping stuff out. (blame it on the nature of only a handful of things being truly competitive) that doesnt happen in the warmachine community. No one plays that one "the list". Blame it one the fact that everything can be built into a game winning build. So the end result isnt you getting a 35pt army. the end result is you playing a game, and while you have 35pts in play for that game, you might have 100+ points in your case waiting for its turn.

I was curious as to the costs involved for myself in warmachine/hordes. bear in mind, i've got all the books, 2 factions, multiple casters, jacks, beasts, units etc. its cost me a lot.

that said though, at the end of the day, Warmachine and Hordes are cheaper to get into. And IMO its more exciting to play. then again, in the long run, it will end up costing you as much as GW-games. So for me, its the wrong selling point to focus on.

Exactly.
Who just ends with "I got an playable force, I dont need anymore models"
Everyone ends up buying more.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Don't think there's anything that went up in price when switching to plastic. Most everything stayed the same price per box, but shifted to a five or ten man box, instead of three or six.

I think the worst I've heard of is Winterguard Rifle Corps which remain $50 after switching to plastic, which is most odd because the thirteen man Winterguard Infantry is also $50 despite having three more guys than the ten man Rifle Corps.

The Prime 'jacks certainly went up in cost at the switch to plastic, the Cryx one went up 25%.

They also added parts to make every jack on that chassis instead of just the one set of arms and head, so it's not a straight "but this went up in price" comparison. The light warjacks are a better comparison, with the resculpted plastic lancer going from $17 to $18 and gaining about 50% more bulk over the old metals.

And last time I recalled, the starter box... for lets say, Khador, was 90 NZD.... 90 flippen bucks for three models.

$73 NZ, according to Total Wargamer.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Exactly.
Who just ends with "I got an playable force, I dont need anymore models"
Everyone ends up buying more.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Exactly.
Who just ends with "I got an playable force, I dont need anymore models"
Everyone ends up buying more.

....I actually do. Or rather, I start a different army. I had "finished" my Skaven and was contemplating starting up either Tomb Kings or Beastmen before I decided to stop buying GW products, then I realized for the cost of a single 2400-2500 point Beastmen army (the typical points value for my local meta at the time) I could get two to four Warmachine armies. I don't collect models just to collect models. Every single model I buy I intend to play games with. So I, in fact, do just what you said people don't do. What am I going to do, buy another box of Tactical Marines to go with the 40 I already have? Buy three Verminlords so I can have one to use in a game and the other two serve as pretty $50 paperweights?

 Easy E wrote:
Well, mos tof the stores I walk into locally are composed of the following:

1. CCGs at the counter
2. One wall of GW
3. One wall of Warmachine
4. Back wall a mix of Pathfinder, FFG Games, other Board Games, and Flames of War.

Nothing else. It seems this "renaissance" of wargames only happens on the internet.

Erm, no. All that proves is it is not happening in your area. you have no other data.

 Dentry wrote:

 Poppabear wrote:
And last time I recalled, the starter box... for lets say, Khador, was 90 NZD.... 90 flippen bucks for three models.

Might wanna go for the Battle Box in the future. About the same as GW's starter box (Dark Vengeance).

And, shockingly, comes with far less models. In fact, comes with less models than just the Dark Angels force in a standard edition DV without Seraphicus. For, as you said, about the same price.

Yes, the armies in it are more complete. But value of models in game should never concern price - something people always lament with GW pricing, say, individual characters higher than individual grunts, yet PP seems to be adored for the practice (though PP do it on a range-wise basis. it's all more expensive because you don't need as much).

I still cringe when I walk into my FLGS semi interested in Warmahordes, and grab a metal squad off the rack. Then see the $100au price tag. Then see the command models are another $33au. Sure, I only need to buy it once, but ~$130au for a squad and command models is... disheartening, to say the least.

Agreed, Loki. We need all plastics everywhere for everything.

 -Loki- wrote:
I still cringe when I walk into my FLGS semi interested in Warmahordes, and grab a metal squad off the rack. Then see the $100au price tag. Then see the command models are another $33au. Sure, I only need to buy it once, but ~$130au for a squad and command models is... disheartening, to say the least.

Just curious, do you remember which unit that was?

Mattman154 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
I still cringe when I walk into my FLGS semi interested in Warmahordes, and grab a metal squad off the rack. Then see the $100au price tag. Then see the command models are another $33au. Sure, I only need to buy it once, but ~$130au for a squad and command models is... disheartening, to say the least.

Just curious, do you remember which unit that was?

Honestly, no, I don't know enough anout Warmachine to recognise them, and didn't bother remembering the name.