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 Rainbow Dash wrote:
it always did seem warmahordes had a more power game-y feel to it, which I abhor in a game
the simple concept of a game being fun is a rare thing these days, with warhammer, I'd not even take my army out if they were playing one of the broken armies.
I didn't feel like taking all those orcs or goblins out to be slaughtered turn 2
complete waste of time, I'm not a noob anymore, I know what I want from the miniature hobby and fighting internet lists tooled to table you before you can do much of anything is not my idea of fun (or even vice versa)
as nice as the trolls and minions are, I don't think I'll be taking up the actual game anytime soon

I really don't care if you take up the game or not so don't take this as any type of attempt to "convert" you.

But there is no such thing as a power gamer in WMH, there is no such thing as an internet list that plays itself in WMH, there is no such thing as any type of army or list that gets "tabled" without any chance to do anything about it or where all you have to do is roll dice and you'll win!

I'm not going to lie and say that some units aren't more powerful and some units aren't less powerful, perfect balance in any game with the complexity of a tabletop wargame is impossible to achieve. But when it comes down to it, player skill will trump unit power in the vast majority of times.

Magic dominates here, getting anywhere from 40 to 60 people each friday. On big tournaments they get over 100 getting people from other states.

for miniatures games 40k is still king followed by Malifaux.

Lot of people own warhammer very few play it. fewer have any painted.

Warmachine started to get popular back in 2008, then it died some how.

Love the models for Warmachine/Hordes (in particular the Troll Bloods) but the game seems rather intimidating. Everywhere you look it seems like it is all driven by competitive tournament style games and events, basically a relaxed casual gamer such as I myself finds it a bit more in your face than other games. Malifaux is rather enjoyable for that reason.

well GW has jaded me game wise, I should give hordes (since I own the rulebook) a try, hopefully the people here are nice

PhantomViper wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
it always did seem warmahordes had a more power game-y feel to it, which I abhor in a game
the simple concept of a game being fun is a rare thing these days, with warhammer, I'd not even take my army out if they were playing one of the broken armies.
I didn't feel like taking all those orcs or goblins out to be slaughtered turn 2
complete waste of time, I'm not a noob anymore, I know what I want from the miniature hobby and fighting internet lists tooled to table you before you can do much of anything is not my idea of fun (or even vice versa)
as nice as the trolls and minions are, I don't think I'll be taking up the actual game anytime soon

I really don't care if you take up the game or not so don't take this as any type of attempt to "convert" you.

But there is no such thing as a power gamer in WMH, there is no such thing as an internet list that plays itself in WMH, there is no such thing as any type of army or list that gets "tabled" without any chance to do anything about it or where all you have to do is roll dice and you'll win!

I'm not going to lie and say that some units aren't more powerful and some units aren't less powerful, perfect balance in any game with the complexity of a tabletop wargame is impossible to achieve. But when it comes down to it, player skill will trump unit power in the vast majority of times.

This.

There's no netlists or "one list to rule them all" in WMH. You just don't see those kinds of things like you do with 40k such as CronAir or Leafblower IG for example.

WM does have its share of top tier builds so saying there is no power game isn't fully true. There is a noticeable difference between a competitive player and casual. This would be the power gamer factor that gives the player base a bad rep. Then again I have seen this playing 40k, Infinity and other games so is an issue in any game played. WAAC is some players fun in gaming where others it can be more social.

knightdrake wrote:
WM does have its share of top tier builds so saying there is no power game isn't fully true. There is a noticeable difference between a competitive player and casual. This would be the power gamer factor that gives the player base a bad rep. Then again I have seen this playing 40k, Infinity and other games so is an issue in any game played. WAAC is some players fun in gaming where others it can be more social.

suppose then I will just have to learn what to look for and avoid them like the plague

knightdrake wrote:
WM does have its share of top tier builds so saying there is no power game isn't fully true. There is a noticeable difference between a competitive player and casual. This would be the power gamer factor that gives the player base a bad rep. Then again I have seen this playing 40k, Infinity and other games so is an issue in any game played. WAAC is some players fun in gaming where others it can be more social.

You're missing my point. Unlike in 40k where you will continually see "This is the only army X list to take EVER if you wish to remain competitive!" and this is the one and only one list you're supposed to take throughout that codex's lifespan in a particular edition. You just do not see this kind of thing in WMH, yes there are some factions that are generally regarded as being above the curve (Cryx, Legion) you don't see Cryx or Legion ROFLstomping every tournament across the land like you do with certain FOTM 40k lists.

Though unlike GW, other factions that aren't Cryx or Legion can easily win games. Wasn't the winner of some recent big US tournament a Circle player?

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

knightdrake wrote:
WM does have its share of top tier builds so saying there is no power game isn't fully true. There is a noticeable difference between a competitive player and casual. This would be the power gamer factor that gives the player base a bad rep. Then again I have seen this playing 40k, Infinity and other games so is an issue in any game played. WAAC is some players fun in gaming where others it can be more social.

suppose then I will just have to learn what to look for and avoid them like the plague

You're still approaching things from a very 40k sort of mindset. I'll see if I can elaborate a bit on what some of the posters are getting at here:

The first thing is that while certainly are some models that are generally more powerful than others and some specific combos will appear across a variety of lists, outside of some very specific kind of skew stuff say Double Stormwall + eHaley there is relatively few lists you can look at go "Ok this is going to be a really bad play experience, and nothing I can do will change that" or "Only very specific lists can deal with this". I mean you can generally spot a caster or specific models that will always give you fits but if you make a point of avoiding those you'll be avoiding *Everything*. It's not like just 1 faction or just 1 model per faction has some killer ability that can lead to a blowout if not addressed, it's every faction and a fair number of models in each faction that can do that.

In 40k listing building is really about finding a first order optimal strategy. Find what gives you the biggest bang for your points, spam it up to the FOC limit, then move on to the second best thing, spam it. Etc.. *


That really isn't the overall approach in Warmahordes. It's about picking tools "ok I want to use this to deal with armor and this to deal with infantry, im going to take this and this to help me deliver that, and I'm going to take this as defensive insurance against that". An army built to win by killing the enemy caster will look different than one built to win on the scenario, which will look different than one built to win by attrition all within the same faction or even caster.

In general you have to look at it like you might look at MTG or Starcraft. There are several proven approaches to the various problems that can arise from your opponents and how the game plays, and certainly things that don't really work. However, really no matter what you're playing there is either going to be a change in approach or a small change in list composition that will let you deal with whatever you struggle against.

I mean within general limits of course. If your entire thing is "I wanna run Amon-Ad Raza, with nothing but multiple max units of Flameguard Cleanses and Deliverers plus a Crusader" well yeah that's going to land on it's face. However, that's kind of a trade off you get with a game that really rewards deliberate list construction.


*This isn't to say spam never works, spam lists exist however they're trying to accomplish something specific with that and it's going to have a huge exploitable weakness.

knightdrake wrote:
WM does have its share of top tier builds so saying there is no power game isn't fully true. There is a noticeable difference between a competitive player and casual. This would be the power gamer factor that gives the player base a bad rep. Then again I have seen this playing 40k, Infinity and other games so is an issue in any game played. WAAC is some players fun in gaming where others it can be more social.

No, they haven't. Look at various tournaments top 10 and you'll see the vast majority of the 11 factions represented therein. Look at the factions that are repeated and you'll see completely different lists. Its true that there are a few lists that people consider to be "top tier". Funny thing about those lists? No one seems to be able to win anything with them except for their original creators!

If someone doesn't know enough about their faction / game that he needs to copy a list of the internet, chances are that he doesn't know enough about the game / faction to be able to win with that same list...

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
See, That is what Ticks me off, People say PP is cheaper, it is not. I still see gigantically stupid prices. It may only costt 100$ to get in, But it will cost you the same to expand as it would a GW game.

no it doesnt, the models themselves in PP are more pts, thusly you need less of them, besides if you buy the intro box, forget what its called, thats a fully legal army, right there, for like 50 bucks... no army in warhammer can get close to playable for 50 dollars
the books are also much cheaper

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Though unlike GW, other factions that aren't Cryx or Legion can easily win games. Wasn't the winner of some recent big US tournament a Circle player?

The winner of the biggest, most prestigious tournament in Warmahordes was playing Cygnar...

PhantomViper wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Though unlike GW, other factions that aren't Cryx or Legion can easily win games. Wasn't the winner of some recent big US tournament a Circle player?

The winner of the biggest, most prestigious tournament in Warmahordes was playing Cygnar...

And he did it because people told him Cygnar can't win. Of course Cygnar forums mostly called it invalid because he used a lot of Mercs in one of his lists. He's moved back to Cryx this year again though with his favorite eLich and Denny Pirates.

 AduroT wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Though unlike GW, other factions that aren't Cryx or Legion can easily win games. Wasn't the winner of some recent big US tournament a Circle player?

The winner of the biggest, most prestigious tournament in Warmahordes was playing Cygnar...

And he did it because people told him Cygnar can't win. Of course Cygnar forums mostly called it invalid because he used a lot of Mercs in one of his lists. He's moved back to Cryx this year again though with his favorite eLich and Denny Pirates.

That's a damn silly argument. The merc models Cygnar has access to are a part of what the faction can bring to the table, it's silly to arbitrarily say which tools do or don't count. You might as well say any win with Asphexious doesn't count because "He was totally a circle before".

But at least it's still fluffy, is it not?

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
But at least it's still fluffy, is it not?

Yep! Cygnar hires mercs from time to time so it's not out of the question.

Trolls and Arcane Shield = Shudder

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im sorry to say this. The PP doesnt care about you. A company never cares about you. its cares about your money. It puts on the facade of caring so you will spent your money on them.

I know it doesn't, and I know they only care about money. I'm an adult, not an idiot and I'll thank you very much for not talking to me like I'm a child.

With that out of the way I 'll just say I'll never buy another product from GW. I'm tired of their price-gouging and disrespect for their fans. I'll play the skirmish games, but I'm not money on their products ever again. I learned that lesson a long time ago.

Saying that a company never cares about you and only cares about your money is stupid though. There's no reason they can't care about both. I honestly feel like PP Does care about it's customers, though that's not to say I don't think they care about or put more priority on money.

We have 2 good press gangers in Orlando. Cuevas and another press ganger from Melbourne/Palm Bay started the big tournament - the Crucible. Chris plays WHFB too which is how I got pulled into Hordes. We are lucky in Orlando - we have 5 different shops and you can find a game for any system. One shop caters to PP, one has a great leagues (pp, GW), one is always hosting a 40k tournament on the weekend, we have a small GW shop where you can find a good number of WHFB players, and another that is big on 40k and LotR. Also if you're within a 2 hour drive from Orlando, the press ganger gets the guys to go on a crusade and travel to wherever. They've gone as far north as Jacksonville and as far south as Miami. So we have an active PP group and a large 40k following since some weeks we have 2-3 weekly tournies.

PhantomViper wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
See, That is what Ticks me off, People say PP is cheaper, it is not. I still see gigantically stupid prices. It may only costt 100$ to get in, But it will cost you the same to expand as it would a GW game.

You are wrong.

Do not say "You are wrong" Explain yourself.

There is a warmahordes presence at my LGS, but they only seem to show up for the scheduled warmahordes night and for tournaments...I rarely see them on open gaming nights. Open gaming night is usually 40k, with some FoW and Malifaux, and maybe a table of Infinity.

For us, ist all warmachine/hordes. We all grew up over a decade ago (or more) on fantasy and 40k, but fantasy has died a screaming death as all the die hards finally threw up their hands in disgust over 8th. 40k died before that, as it was getting annoying with GW and their antics in rules, waiting for codex to get update. and the newest edition got no traction.

warmahordes fills alot of itches GW no longer does- it can played easier as a fun game or as a cut throat tournment prep. Modeling and painting are filled as well. The rules are tight, no arguements and rules get clarified with regularity. And as the OP pointed out, the entry is SO MUCH easier to get into, battle box and your good to go for a start. easier to build modularly- 15,25,35,50 pt games go much faster then 1500-2000 and switching casters is easier.

But ultimately what alot of us enjoy is the fact of everyone gets something with every release. No more DE player needing 9 years for an update, no ork player languishing over waiting while 4 marine books come out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AduroT wrote:
Saying that a company never cares about you and only cares about your money is stupid though. There's no reason they can't care about both. I honestly feel like PP Does care about it's customers, though that's not to say I don't think they care about or put more priority on money.

PP cares about the customer long haul. They want them coming back, you can see it in how they handle their customers and game problems.

GW does not. You can see it how it handles veteran players vs new players. GW is all about the churn. Its all about the shiney.

 NoQuestionzAsked wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
See, That is what Ticks me off, People say PP is cheaper, it is not. I still see gigantically stupid prices. It may only costt 100$ to get in, But it will cost you the same to expand as it would a GW game.

You are wrong.

Do not say "You are wrong" Explain yourself.

I don't need to explain myself, there are literally tens of threads where these arguments are thrown about and in every single one of them it has been proven that GW is significantly more expensive than any other miniature game on the market.
















Now lets just wait for the predictable arguments stating that if you play 40K with a single squad box then it really, really, really is a cheap and affordable game...

PhantomViper wrote:


I don't need to explain myself, there are literally tens of threads where these arguments are thrown about and in every single one of them it has been proven that GW is significantly more expensive than any other miniature game on the market.

Now lets just wait for the predictable arguments stating that if you play 40K with a single squad box then it really, really, really is a cheap and affordable game...

As someone has played both, I can certainly say I spent more assembling a shrimpy little Space Wolves force than I have getting the ability to field a healthy variety of 50pts lists for Protectorate of Menoth, and that was before a couple of the more recent rounds of GW price hikes. Yeah it's been done to death, but I don't mind beating a dead horse.

Anyway I've been wanting to jump into Circle recently so I put together a 35pt list that I'd want to jump on right away so I could be right at my playgroup's most common points level. I'll copy/paste the shopping cart I still have saved for reference


Ghetorix Character Heavy Warbeast Upgrade Kit Circle Blister PIP72062 $11.89
Kromac the Ravenous Warlock Circle of Orboros Blister PIP72020 $20.99
Shifting Stones Unit Circle Blister PIP72016 $8.39
Stone Keeper Unit Attachment Circle Blister PIP72051 $6.99
Stoneward & Woldstalkers Unit Circle Box PIP72041 $17.49
2 Feral / Pureblood / Stalker Warpwolf Heavy Warbeast Kit Circle Box PIP72057 $48.98
Gorax Resculpt Light Warbeast Circle Blister PIP72055 $15.39
Lord of the Feast Character Solo Circle of Orboros Blister $9.09
Druid Wilder Warlock Attachment Circle Blister PIP72049 $5.59

Total: $144.80 (This is obviously a discounted price at an online retailer which 40k has as well, but I found they were typically smaller discounts and really annoying to get because GW doesn't let you use online shopping carts at those stores)

This probably one of the more expensive ways to jump to 35pts as I'm not using any of the starter kits, I'm going with a beefy two-model medium base caster who costs more than twice as much as some other good options. With about $70 more worth of models I could have get enough pieces to run 35pts lists under about 2-3 more casters, and have a solid 50pts list under at least one. I think in terms of popularity of common points levels that are events are played at, these are probably analogous to 1500 & 2000 points in 40k respectively but someone feel free to correct me.


I just hopped over the GW site and a Space Marine tactical squad is $37.50 MSRP and is probably about what, 200/1500 pts? Forgive me if this is off I've not played 40k in a while.

A box of Exemplar Errants is $49.99 MSRP and is 8/35 pts.

Granted they're both 10 dudes so you're getting a lower price per model on the Space Marines. However, in terms of value as "Dollars per % of a viable army" the Errants are ahead. This is Space Marine infantry and probably the most favorable comparison you're going to get to GW stuff. If you're going into armies with relatively low value troopers like Ork Boyz or Guardsmen the difference is going to be huge.

I'm looking at a Dreadnought and that's now $46.50 MSRP and is again like 200/1500pts or so? The Reckoner/Sanctifier/Castigator kit is $34.99 MSRP and is 8/35 pts. They're also comparably sized big stompy robots.

I think I'd concede that the overall price per model is probably fairly similar on infantry lists, but even at the most infantry spammy you're not going to need as many dudes. The price per army is just flat out no contest, and on big value models like beasts & jacks vs dreads or single characters it's really no contest in value or price per model.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
it always did seem warmahordes had a more power game-y feel to it, which I abhor in a game
the simple concept of a game being fun is a rare thing these days, with warhammer, I'd not even take my army out if they were playing one of the broken armies.
I didn't feel like taking all those orcs or goblins out to be slaughtered turn 2
complete waste of time, I'm not a noob anymore, I know what I want from the miniature hobby and fighting internet lists tooled to table you before you can do much of anything is not my idea of fun (or even vice versa)
as nice as the trolls and minions are, I don't think I'll be taking up the actual game anytime soon

With all due respect, you are very much approaching this with a GW-centric point of view.

you talk of power gaming as a huge negative (no... wait. Hear me out), not bothering when someone takes out a broken army (and i can empathise. Iron Warriors in fourth edition really drove me from the game). you talk of internet lists tooled to take you apart. And most importantly, you talk of "fun", as very much being the antithesis of "powergaming" - that in itself is a hallmark of the GW-centric thinking. And i say this with genuine regret that that is your experience, that that is what defines your point of view.

It always saddens me that in general in the 40k community, competitive gaming is laced with such negative vibes that you show. that somehow, competitive gaming is "doing it wrong". And the funny thing is, i can see how you would come to that point of view wen playing 40k games. We all have those horror stories of GK, and Leafblower spam armies that destroy our own in a turn or two. In my case, it was Iron Warriors back in fourth against my tau. You never really had a chance. And as such, those "power lists" get such a hugely negative vibe attached to them. But is it because of their power level? I dont think so. Is it because the other guy had a desire to win? I dont think so. I think its something more. I think this whole thing of competitive gaming, and powergaming being bad, and ruining your experience is only due to your own narrow perception. And believe me, i dont say this in a bad way. I've found in general people who play GW games tend to have a very narrow and skewed view of things. And its not that they're bad folks, or bad gamers. It boils down to the fact that thats all they've been exposed to. That and the self perpetuating moaning and groaning that is the 40k community. a group of 40k players is jokingly called a "whine" for a reason! What im trying to say is, what if your experience of powergaming being bad was only because of this narrow point of view? What if, elsewhere, "powergaming" as known in 40k circles isnt an issue. And thats how i see it. the negativity of the 40k community only reinforces this skewed attittude where you feel that when you win, you must almost apologise to your opponent. "doing your best" is frowned on and a pathetic little whiny "dont hurt me", "dont play too hard", and "if no one wins, no one loses" kind of attitude seems to be the order of the day.
To me, the problem boils down to a lack of balance. Only certain codices are good. within those codices, only certain builds are good. Maybe 20% of the options out there are "good", whilst the rest are mediocre, bad, or plain old pointless. So a guy who builds a list based on the top options versus a guy who takes bits and pieces? What happens? optimisation wins. he will nuke the other guy. And as such, competitve gaming is seen in a negative light. powergamers ruin the game.

But what if it wasnt this case. What if all the options were good? What if it was you, and not your list, that won a game? Here is the thing. In warmachine, everything is broken. Everything can be built into a game winning strategy. Powergaming isnt an issue, because everything is built with the same attitude. that powergamer who ruined your games of 40k with his broken lists? Yeah, warmachine makes him dead ordinary. your skills are what matter, not your army lists. All of a sudden, all that whining you're used to doesnt make any sense. you see it as the buzzing in your ear that it really is. you are on the same page as your opponent. there is less whining and moaning, less chat of "thats too broken!!! nerf it", and more Page 5. I've demoed this game to a lot of folks, and a lot of folks were surprised by the sense of freedom they found in both the game, and the community. all that stuff in GW games that you hated in GW games doesnt really seem to matter.

How would you feel if the concept of "powergaming" as seen in 40k circles didnt exist? What if it boiled down to you just playing a game, and doing your best.
How about you got to see the "fun" side to the full metal mayhem that is warmachine, instead of shuddering inside because something is "too powerful". embrace the beast i say, and you'll realise its not the monster you make it out to be. its just 40k that makes it seem such a way.
How would you feel if that powerful list came out, and all of a sudden, you want to take it on? Because you can? Because Page5 instills in you an attitude of taking on the big dogs. because you're a big dog yourself. no need to run and hide, and whine later on dakka. How would you feel to be able to say you took it on with pride? 40k doesnt let you do that. warmachine encourages it.
What if those turn two slaughters you abbhor didnt happen? What if your armies abilities to do well were down to you, and your skills as a gamer, and not the codex you followed? When you lose, its because you lost fair and square, you simply got outplayed, not because your opponent took a FOTM army against yours, whilst you've been waiting 10 years for an update. What if a single dice roll could have swung it. a single mistake, or decision, attack here, or go there? How you played, not what you took. Afraid of turn 2 massacres, and facing off against clearly more powerful forced? Well, What if yours were just as capable of taking it on the chin, and fighting back on equal terms?
Internet lists tooled to beat you? Doesnt happen. Ask a Space Wolf player what list works, and he'll tell you X, Y and Z. Ask a khador player what list works, and he'll answer with pretty much most of the khador roster. Look at the tournament results. Look at the lists that go up. No one ever really plays the same list. Players win tournaments. Not armies.

I apologise for going off on a tangent Rainbow. But really, try the game out. your experience from 40k - well, in my mind, a lot of it is irrelevant. Most important thing i learned when i picked up warmachine, and what i pass on to everybody i teach how to play is if you've learned wargaming from GW, then be prepared to forget everything you think you know, and prepare for a whole new way of thinking.

PhantomViper wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Though unlike GW, other factions that aren't Cryx or Legion can easily win games. Wasn't the winner of some recent big US tournament a Circle player?

The winner of the biggest, most prestigious tournament in Warmahordes was playing Cygnar...

What list was he playing? Is there a link to his overview?

carmachu wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Though unlike GW, other factions that aren't Cryx or Legion can easily win games. Wasn't the winner of some recent big US tournament a Circle player?

The winner of the biggest, most prestigious tournament in Warmahordes was playing Cygnar...

What list was he playing? Is there a link to his overview?

Well there was a video camera set up filming the final game, you should be able to figure out what is in his list from the video. http://teamcovenant.com/blog/2012/11/08/wmw-finals-video/

Edit: Here the list I found on the cygnar forum on the privateer press website

Captain Allister Caine (*5pts)
* Ol' Rowdy (9pts)
* Squire (2pts)
Alexia Ciannor & the Risen (Alexia and 9 Risen Grunts) (5pts)
Greygore Boomhowler & Co. (Boomhowler and 9 Grunts) (9pts)
Horgenhold Forge Guard (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt (4pts)
Rangers (5pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)
Journeyman Warcaster (3pts)
Ragman (2pts)
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator (1pts)
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord (2pts)

VS.

Grand Scrutator Severius (*6pts)
* Redeemer (6pts)
* Redeemer (6pts)
* Reckoner (8pts)
Vessel of Judgement (9pts)
Vessel of Judgement (9pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Exemplar Errants (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard Bearer (2pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)
Vassal Mechanik (1pts)

 Blood Hawk wrote:


Captain Allister Caine (*5pts)
* Ol' Rowdy (9pts)
* Squire (2pts)
Alexia Ciannor & the Risen (Alexia and 9 Risen Grunts) (5pts)
Greygore Boomhowler & Co. (Boomhowler and 9 Grunts) (9pts)
Horgenhold Forge Guard (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt (4pts)
Rangers (5pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)
Journeyman Warcaster (3pts)
Ragman (2pts)
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator (1pts)
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord (2pts)

Damn, 9/14 things taken were Mercs. I guess that's what they're there for!

 AduroT wrote:
Depends on Which ten guys. Their upcoming ten and thirteen man Winterguard boxes are both only fifty. The ~$80+ units tend to be the more parts heavy knights and such with more or larger parts.

Still cheaper than a full squad of Terminators $100.00-$120.00 per ten.