Cheesless Armies die to Helldrakes

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**LValx**

Gangrel767 wrote:
Ok, I know it's a slight tangent, but the Chaos Space Marines can have potentially 4.. well 3+1. 3 Hell Drakes and a Flying DP with the Burning Brand. I'm sure this is no surprise to many of you, but I feel like it should be in this conversation, since we're talking about how terrible the Helldrake is in multiples, let's not forget that there could be potentially 4 (3+1) of these beasts vector striking around all with torrent ap3 flamers.

Certainly an issue, I know a guy who actually does this specifically and it has caused a lot of issues for both mech and foot MEQ based lists.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exergy wrote:
R3ds8n wrote:
cormadepanda wrote:
Read thread. Read redundantly that only counters is space marine fliers, and or guard flies. Plays orks. Foot slogging orks. brings 25 auto cannons to the table as foot slogging orks. My face when i only been able to shoot down 2 fliers out of 8 games. Be sad when i hear a hell drake coming.. it just too perfect at killing ground. Amazed no one runs triple drake.

Untill then lads, orks are going to have a very hard day with those hell drakes.

Plenty of folk run triple drakes.

plenty of folks do run triple drakes, but that doesnt ensure they will win. Drakes are next to useless against true hordes, Teq, heavy tanks, dreadnaughts, MCs. They arent particularly good against fliers either.

so there is something that is very good at killing clumped up expensive Meq in cover, adapt.
as a DE player first I could complain all day about chimera walls, warwalkers, psiback spam, psyrifleman. Things that are extremely strong against my army but they arent totally broken and no matter how bad they get my army there are others that can get them.

Triple drakes are pretty effective against true hordes still. They can mess up backfield units such as Lootas as well as combine fire on big squads to get them below fearless levels. I play Nids as my main army and with the new post FAQ vector, I fear drakes too. The vectors can really drop a Tervigon faster than one would think and as I said before, the longer the game goes on the more damage they tend to do.

The problem with adapting is that many of the adaptations will make your army much worse against the rest of the "meta." People have moved towards foot-based lists for good reason, the majority of missions require strong, durable troops that can be alive to capture objectives. The Heldrakes mobility and durability allow it to really become a great tool for a competent player and specifically a tool that is designed to be maximally efficient against the most popular army.

Once again, not unbeatable, but what makes them so damn good is how much they force you into thinking about how to defeat them. No one unit in the game currently has had as much of an effect on my personal army building strategies.

**Exergy**

Gangrel767 wrote:
Ok, I know it's a slight tangent, but the Chaos Space Marines can have potentially 4.. well 3+1. 3 Hell Drakes and a Flying DP with the Burning Brand. I'm sure this is no surprise to many of you, but I feel like it should be in this conversation, since we're talking about how terrible the Helldrake is in multiples, let's not forget that there could be potentially 4 (3+1) of these beasts vector striking around all with torrent ap3 flamers.

again that costs 700 points and all of the CSM players FA slots(the best slots). That is over a third of the army, and only the DP can do anything against 2+ saves.

Can they have 3+1? Yes. Is it a competitive TAC list, surely not.

**BeefCakeSoup**

StormK wrote:
Okay, there's a lot of heat in these arguments so I'l try to explain my position.
I try to play 40k without "cheese" units. You know, I want to beat my opponents by outsmarting them, or by using better tactics. A lot of units in GW games are unbalanced and GW loves to create units that break the rules so everyone will run out and buy those units. Like everyone did when Grey Knights came out. Then they nerfed Gk. I don't like to do things that way.
To give you an idea of what I mean;
I play vanilla marines without Vulkan Hestan, and I play Khorne space marines without Kharne. Or Skulltaker.
When 6th ed CSM codex came out my friend wiped the floor with everyone at our club by using nurgle marines and Epidemius. I beat him with vanilla marines and soon everyone was winning against him so he rethought his army and no longer plays Epidemius. This is an example of a cheese list losing to smart tactics. I don't feel an Epidemius list is overpowered because everything has to work together and it's possible to counter. It's a "newb killer" but not broken.
Now here we are with two Helldrakes in another friends army and no one can beat him. Since the FAQ gave the baleflamer the "turret" rule, helldrakes cant be beat. Interceptor is not reliable enough to stop them. You can not take cover from the Baleflamer even inside a building, and he does not have to worry about direction of travel or what is his arc of fire. No scoring units can get an armor save and again no cover saves. In addition most units can't even fire at the thing. You just have to tolerate it flying around killing entire units each turn. And he has two. He doesn't even have to attack with anything else. Our group's best player was tabled by these Helldrakes (it's not me). That hasn't happened ever. The Helldrakes were responsible for 90% of the casualties! That is Cheezits inside a quesadilla-wrapped cheeseburger.

To those who say "it's not broke" I say "show me". Give me a vanilla counter or CSM counter that does not require me running out to buy my own Helldrakes.

What is this really lame trend, where 40K has all these forum hipsters that go against the grind and don't go with the "norm" and play bad because its against the grain! Dude, you got owned because you didnt counter an easy to kill unit with some AA or "cheesy" units? Then you give some long drawn out example of how you're sweet and your losing is 100% because he isn't a cool hipster and uses cheesy units. Then you dare the internet to disprove you...

Okay, here's proof, Chaos isn't utterly dominating every meta right now uncontested with Helldrakes. The End. L2P

**PipeAlley**

Exergy wrote:
R3ds8n wrote:
cormadepanda wrote:
Read thread. Read redundantly that only counters is space marine fliers, and or guard flies. Plays orks. Foot slogging orks. brings 25 auto cannons to the table as foot slogging orks. My face when i only been able to shoot down 2 fliers out of 8 games. Be sad when i hear a hell drake coming.. it just too perfect at killing ground. Amazed no one runs triple drake.

Untill then lads, orks are going to have a very hard day with those hell drakes.

Plenty of folk run triple drakes.

plenty of folks do run triple drakes, but that doesnt ensure they will win. Drakes are next to useless against true hordes, Teq, heavy tanks, dreadnaughts, MCs. They arent particularly good against fliers either.

so there is something that is very good at killing clumped up expensive Meq in cover, adapt.
as a DE player first I could complain all day about chimera walls, warwalkers, psiback spam, psyrifleman. Things that are extremely strong against my army but they arent totally broken and no matter how bad they get my army there are others that can get them.

Amen Xenos Brother. LR spam is immune to Heldrakes. Inv/FNPsaves maybe?

P.S. the only "Broken" codex is Grey Knights as in it's overpowered an under costed. But what else can you expect with the Space Marine's Space Marine?

**barnowl**

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
StormK wrote:
Okay, there's a lot of heat in these arguments so I'l try to explain my position.
I try to play 40k without "cheese" units. You know, I want to beat my opponents by outsmarting them, or by using better tactics. A lot of units in GW games are unbalanced and GW loves to create units that break the rules so everyone will run out and buy those units. Like everyone did when Grey Knights came out. Then they nerfed Gk. I don't like to do things that way.
To give you an idea of what I mean;
I play vanilla marines without Vulkan Hestan, and I play Khorne space marines without Kharne. Or Skulltaker.
When 6th ed CSM codex came out my friend wiped the floor with everyone at our club by using nurgle marines and Epidemius. I beat him with vanilla marines and soon everyone was winning against him so he rethought his army and no longer plays Epidemius. This is an example of a cheese list losing to smart tactics. I don't feel an Epidemius list is overpowered because everything has to work together and it's possible to counter. It's a "newb killer" but not broken.
Now here we are with two Helldrakes in another friends army and no one can beat him. Since the FAQ gave the baleflamer the "turret" rule, helldrakes cant be beat. Interceptor is not reliable enough to stop them. You can not take cover from the Baleflamer even inside a building, and he does not have to worry about direction of travel or what is his arc of fire. No scoring units can get an armor save and again no cover saves. In addition most units can't even fire at the thing. You just have to tolerate it flying around killing entire units each turn. And he has two. He doesn't even have to attack with anything else. Our group's best player was tabled by these Helldrakes (it's not me). That hasn't happened ever. The Helldrakes were responsible for 90% of the casualties! That is Cheezits inside a quesadilla-wrapped cheeseburger.

To those who say "it's not broke" I say "show me". Give me a vanilla counter or CSM counter that does not require me running out to buy my own Helldrakes.

What is this really lame trend, where 40K has all these forum hipsters that go against the grind and don't go with the "norm" and play bad because its against the grain! Dude, you got owned because you didnt counter an easy to kill unit with some AA or "cheesy" units? Then you give some long drawn out example of how you're sweet and your losing is 100% because he isn't a cool hipster and uses cheesy units. Then you dare the internet to disprove you...

Okay, here's proof, Chaos isn't utterly dominating every meta right now uncontested with Helldrakes. The End. L2P

Judging by this thread I would say, while not stomping the tourney circuit, the helldrake is effecting the meta, and considering the FAQ that is causing this has not even been out a month yet, that is good reason to think it may be a broken unit.

**LValx**

Exergy wrote:
Gangrel767 wrote:
Ok, I know it's a slight tangent, but the Chaos Space Marines can have potentially 4.. well 3+1. 3 Hell Drakes and a Flying DP with the Burning Brand. I'm sure this is no surprise to many of you, but I feel like it should be in this conversation, since we're talking about how terrible the Helldrake is in multiples, let's not forget that there could be potentially 4 (3+1) of these beasts vector striking around all with torrent ap3 flamers.

again that costs 700 points and all of the CSM players FA slots(the best slots). That is over a third of the army, and only the DP can do anything against 2+ saves.

Can they have 3+1? Yes. Is it a competitive TAC list, surely not.

2+ saves arent so hot in 6th. I've literally seen no army based around them do well in tournies. They struggle massively against hordes, pack little firepower and are so inefficient for their cost. DW got worse with the new dex due to an overall point increase. My BT became unplayable in 6th. The only 2+ saves I see often now are singleton oblits. The thought of running termies in order to mitigate the heldrake crossed my mind, but I quickly remembered the influx of tzeentch daemons and the popularity of massive torrent of fire armies. My DA test build killed 20 TEQ wounds in one shooting phase and many other armies that are currently being used can do the exact same thing (Gonyo's GKs, Strike spam of any sort, devastation banner lists and even massed SW/IG lists).

**Sephyr**

LValx wrote:

2+ saves arent so hot in 6th. I've literally seen no army based around them do well in tournies. They struggle massively against hordes, pack little firepower and are so inefficient for their cost. DW got worse with the new dex due to an overall point increase. My BT became unplayable in 6th. The only 2+ saves I see often now are singleton oblits. The thought of running termies in order to mitigate the heldrake crossed my mind, but I quickly remembered the influx of tzeentch daemons and the popularity of massive torrent of fire armies. My DA test build killed 20 TEQ wounds in one shooting phase and many other armies that are currently being used can do the exact same thing (Gonyo's GKs, Strike spam of any sort, devastation banner lists and even massed SW/IG lists).

It's early to say DW got worse, as they have better weaponry now, arrive twin-linked and on the turn you choose allowing for almost no scatter if done right, and the Bolter Banner sounds quite good against hordes, not to mention their very cheap whirlwinds, and while some stuff got expensive, it also got cooler. You can still get Battle Brother Guardsmen for cheap bodies and the best flyer in the game as well as volume of fire, and the synergize quite well with some DA HQs.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Exergy wrote:
R3ds8n wrote:
cormadepanda wrote:
Read thread. Read redundantly that only counters is space marine fliers, and or guard flies. Plays orks. Foot slogging orks. brings 25 auto cannons to the table as foot slogging orks. My face when i only been able to shoot down 2 fliers out of 8 games. Be sad when i hear a hell drake coming.. it just too perfect at killing ground. Amazed no one runs triple drake.

Untill then lads, orks are going to have a very hard day with those hell drakes.

Plenty of folk run triple drakes.

plenty of folks do run triple drakes, but that doesnt ensure they will win. Drakes are next to useless against true hordes, Teq, heavy tanks, dreadnaughts, MCs. They arent particularly good against fliers either.

so there is something that is very good at killing clumped up expensive Meq in cover, adapt.
as a DE player first I could complain all day about chimera walls, warwalkers, psiback spam, psyrifleman. Things that are extremely strong against my army but they arent totally broken and no matter how bad they get my army there are others that can get them.

How are S6 Torrent Template weapons "bad" against "true hordes"?

**Martel732**

Then GW needs to rerelase the rules. Or, gasp, package them with the model.

**Exergy**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Exergy wrote:
R3ds8n wrote:
cormadepanda wrote:
Read thread. Read redundantly that only counters is space marine fliers, and or guard flies. Plays orks. Foot slogging orks. brings 25 auto cannons to the table as foot slogging orks. My face when i only been able to shoot down 2 fliers out of 8 games. Be sad when i hear a hell drake coming.. it just too perfect at killing ground. Amazed no one runs triple drake.

Untill then lads, orks are going to have a very hard day with those hell drakes.

Plenty of folk run triple drakes.

plenty of folks do run triple drakes, but that doesnt ensure they will win. Drakes are next to useless against true hordes, Teq, heavy tanks, dreadnaughts, MCs. They arent particularly good against fliers either.

so there is something that is very good at killing clumped up expensive Meq in cover, adapt.
as a DE player first I could complain all day about chimera walls, warwalkers, psiback spam, psyrifleman. Things that are extremely strong against my army but they arent totally broken and no matter how bad they get my army there are others that can get them.

How are S6 Torrent Template weapons "bad" against "true hordes"?

when they cost 200 points, even if you get a good shot off and kill 10 guys you havent done very much damage because hordes are so cheap.

**Che-Vito**

< Taken by the void dragon. >

**L0rdF1end**

Che-Vito wrote:
797th Red Tigers wrote:
kronk wrote:
L0rdF1end wrote:
So lets see, pulling back on topic.

If your opponent bring both Helldrakes and Vendetta's. What the hell do you do now?

Bring your own Vendettas! Yay, arms race!

And that, my friends, is how the Imperial Guard does things.
3 Helldrakes and 3 Vendettas will not win against 9 Vendettas and 3 Hydra Flack Tanks supported by a few Russes.

The downside is simply a matter of cost. I've been playing 40k for 6 years, and have had to cycle through my armies several times to keep them competitive.
Eventually, I just stopped. It was never a matter of being unable to cope with planning new tactics, but paying for them.

That to me, is why Flyers in 6e are such a bummer. If I had to money to throw down for some uber 3+ flyer list, I just might. Air Cav IG is a very cool concept to play tactically (Elysians anyone?). With that said, the new edition is what it is, and I'll tramp on with what I have.

I will admit that I have significantly less fun being 'priced out' of a game; but I understand that GW has to make money somehow.

I would agree, the more money you have the more easy it is to adpat to game changes.
Unfortunately as you stated its been going on for years and will never change.

Ebay is your friend in most cases, even if you can save money on getting a bunch of zombies for instance cheaper that could potentially free up cash for a helldrake.

**labmouse42**

LValx wrote:
I am not talking about one, I realize one won't kill a rhino with vectors. In fact, I dont think 1 Heldrake is a huge obstacle. I am talking about pairs or triplets (triplets obviously being the worst). A pair of heldrakes can easily vector one vehicle to death when they come in and then fry the entire squad that was embarked. A big reason I think that rhinos/chimeras aren't a great fix vs them.

What you want here is something to crack the rhinos at range. Think of havocs, predators, etc... Thats the ticket.

**felixcat**

I've had the misfortune to run into this at 2000

1 burning brand on lord
5 blastmasters in five squads
2 baleflamers - heldrakes
1 hades autocannon - heldrakes
4 regular autocannons - havocs
1 quad autocannons (skyfire)
4 mutable weapons - oblits

It was not even a close game against my SW. Seriously, how many lists have the firepower to take on three 'drakes with the rest of the units coming at you firing. Every unit is a threat. A single Heldrake is not bad in a vacuum. It's when they are in lists that pack multiple threats all of which do a lot of damage and when they are not the only way your opponent deals with flyers.

**womprat49**

Good point of the many who said getting into CC quickly to avoid getting shot by the drakes.

Getting behind the Drake is also a viable counter move to the Drake, very good comments.

I played a game at GW NYC last week and went up against a Drake for the first time. I was cool with taking those losses each turn because he was only shooting my backfield units while The Relic and all the CC nearby ensued. I didn't take a single shot at it either.

**Lord Krungharr**

Seb wrote:
On the top of my head, as CSM :
- Havocs with AC. Cheap, only hits on 6.
- Havocs with ML and skyfire missiles. One round of steady shooting should do the trick.
- Terminators. 2+.

Finally, if you're very angry - Khorne-like angry : land raiders. They can shoot the drakes out of the sky, and almost nothing can open them. You can get into CC, and once you're on his units, the template is not worth anything.

Let's say you're even angrier than that, and you want to use cheese of your own.

Huron + terminators + dedicated land raiders. Give infiltrate to these guys. Yes, that's a turn one assault. Turn 2, send the LR chasing the helldrakes. Best of it : I find it very Khorny to have land raiders filled with raging terminators ambushed behind small trees.

But can Infiltrating Termies in Land Raiders assault in their first turn? I thought that wasn't allowed?

**McNinja**

Lord Krungharr wrote:
Seb wrote:
On the top of my head, as CSM :
- Havocs with AC. Cheap, only hits on 6.
- Havocs with ML and skyfire missiles. One round of steady shooting should do the trick.
- Terminators. 2+.

Finally, if you're very angry - Khorne-like angry : land raiders. They can shoot the drakes out of the sky, and almost nothing can open them. You can get into CC, and once you're on his units, the template is not worth anything.

Let's say you're even angrier than that, and you want to use cheese of your own.

Huron + terminators + dedicated land raiders. Give infiltrate to these guys. Yes, that's a turn one assault. Turn 2, send the LR chasing the helldrakes. Best of it : I find it very Khorny to have land raiders filled with raging terminators ambushed behind small trees.

But can Infiltrating Termies in Land Raiders assault in their first turn? I thought that wasn't allowed?

As far as I know, infiltrators can assault turn 1, even if they go first. Scouts, however, cannot, as per the Rulebook FAQ.

**Luide**

McNinja wrote:
As far as I know, infiltrators can assault turn 1, even if they go first. Scouts, however, cannot, as per the Rulebook FAQ.

Nope, Infiltrators rule specifies that "A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in the first turn."
Goal of GW in this edition was to make sure that first (player) turn charge is practically impossible, unless your opponent uses scout/infiltrators to move closer to you.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Exergy wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Exergy wrote:
R3ds8n wrote:
cormadepanda wrote:
Read thread. Read redundantly that only counters is space marine fliers, and or guard flies. Plays orks. Foot slogging orks. brings 25 auto cannons to the table as foot slogging orks. My face when i only been able to shoot down 2 fliers out of 8 games. Be sad when i hear a hell drake coming.. it just too perfect at killing ground. Amazed no one runs triple drake.

Untill then lads, orks are going to have a very hard day with those hell drakes.

Plenty of folk run triple drakes.

plenty of folks do run triple drakes, but that doesnt ensure they will win. Drakes are next to useless against true hordes, Teq, heavy tanks, dreadnaughts, MCs. They arent particularly good against fliers either.

so there is something that is very good at killing clumped up expensive Meq in cover, adapt.
as a DE player first I could complain all day about chimera walls, warwalkers, psiback spam, psyrifleman. Things that are extremely strong against my army but they arent totally broken and no matter how bad they get my army there are others that can get them.

How are S6 Torrent Template weapons "bad" against "true hordes"?

when they cost 200 points, even if you get a good shot off and kill 10 guys you havent done very much damage because hordes are so cheap.

Wait, so a unit isn't worth it if it can't get its whole points cost back in one shot? That's pretty insane TBH.

**Che-Vito**

< Taken by the void dragon. >

**scuddman**

To address the original poster's question:

6th edition (and GW games in general) migrates towards the idea of combos and power strats over tactical play. In some sense, 40k has always had this problem, but in the past, you could figure out counters. There are very specific counters to problems in 6th, and most of the time only a few armies have them or can do them.

You'll basically have to retune your idea of 40k. In 5th edition, I commonly stated that what you had left and where it was at the end of the game meant more than how much you killed.

In 6th, you can throw that idea out. With allies and flyers, there are more variations of broken crap than ever before, and the idea of fair/balanced/strategical armies are going to go out the window.

Honestly, vanilla marines don't have a solid answer to 3 dragons flying around. You're going to have to ally/buy a terrain piece to come up with an answer.

**ShadarLogoth**

scuddman wrote:
To address the original poster's question:

6th edition (and GW games in general) migrates towards the idea of combos and power strats over tactical play. In some sense, 40k has always had this problem, but in the past, you could figure out counters. There are very specific counters to problems in 6th, and most of the time only a few armies have them or can do them.

You'll basically have to retune your idea of 40k. In 5th edition, I commonly stated that what you had left and where it was at the end of the game meant more than how much you killed.

In 6th, you can throw that idea out. With allies and flyers, there are more variations of broken crap than ever before, and the idea of fair/balanced/strategical armies are going to go out the window.

Honestly, vanilla marines don't have a solid answer to 3 dragons flying around. You're going to have to ally/buy a terrain piece to come up with an answer.

Nonsense. In 12 years I have never seen the variety and viability of armies in the tournament seen as I'm seeing right now. Troop heavy, mech heavy, flier heavy, and all the hybrids in between. The new dynamics of 6th have just made it much more difficult to find one easy win button, spam the gak out of it, and win games by crushing your opponent with weight of dice. The Dragon is a perfect example. Sure, its good against MeQ, but there are a number of armies that present no efficient targets for it to attack, and then you have 510 points wrapped up in models that your opponent will simply ignore.

**phatonic**

oohh yes now your 3+ armor save dies, how do you think we orks feel ALL the time? the dragons are easy to take down, a barrage of loota shooting und it's down!

**punkow**

I faced a double helldrake list the other day and the poor beasts simply died to my "lascannon jungle"....8 twinlinked lascannons should do the work.... DO NOT TAKE the flakk missiles, they'r awful...

**ShadarLogoth**

punkow wrote:
I faced a double helldrake list the other day and the poor beasts simply died to my "lascannon jungle"....8 twinlinked lascannons should do the work.... DO NOT TAKE the flakk missiles, they'r awful...

I'm not sure if yet if the Flakk Missles are awful in and of themselves. Keep in mind that they are only one option on a weapon that can be switched between for anti-vehicle/MeQ, anti-horde, or anti-flier. That's still pretty good versatility.

A BS 4 Flakk missile against AV12 will do .22 HPs/turn and get .11 pens/turn.

A Lascannon against AV12 will do .11 HPs/turn and get .083 pens/turn, albeit AP 2 pens.

A twin-linked Lazcannon against AV12 will do .20 HPs/turn and get .15 pens/turn, again AP 2 pens.

So the twin-linked lascannon is a little bit better then the flak, but it's not likely the two are ever interchangeable, and you spend considerably more points for a twin-linked Las then you do a Flak Missile (compare, say, the cost of a pred with 2 TLC versus a squad of Havocs with 4 Flakk Missles).

**labmouse42**

Che-Vito wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Wait, so a unit isn't worth it if it can't get its whole points cost back in one shot? That's pretty insane TBH.

Killing 6 Ork Boyz per turn for 5 turns will earn it's points cost back. Killing an entire mob over 5 turns will make it's VP back.
That's not awful at killing hordes, nor is it terribly effective.

Luckly, most ork players bring targets other than just ork boys.

Usually I see lootas, and lately a truuk or two of meganobs. Those are targets the helldrake does well against.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Nonsense. In 12 years I have never seen the variety and viability of armies in the tournament seen as I'm seeing right now. Troop heavy, mech heavy, flier heavy, and all the hybrids in between. The new dynamics of 6th have just made it much more difficult to find one easy win button, spam the gak out of it, and win games by crushing your opponent with weight of dice. The Dragon is a perfect example. Sure, its good against MeQ, but there are a number of armies that present no efficient targets for it to attack, and then you have 510 points wrapped up in models that your opponent will simply ignore.

I think this is a great thing for the game.

**scuddman**

I don't agree at all. It's good if you have money, and can afford to ally. You want to do a themed list? You just have some basic stuff? You can't hang, the end. You just said so yourself...sad times for MEQ...so ally or change your list or GTFO. Tournament runners? Sure, they always ran to the next best thing anyways. Not everybody has the luxury of doing that.

**FenixZero**

Gangrel767 wrote:
Arc of Sight #4 on pg 72 in the BRB. 360 degree on a turret-mounted weapon

Considering that the neck isn't long enough to go completely around some parts of the body, this is a terrible decision on the part of GW.

**tetrisphreak**

FenixZero wrote:
Gangrel767 wrote:
Arc of Sight #4 on pg 72 in the BRB. 360 degree on a turret-mounted weapon

Considering that the neck isn't long enough to go completely around some parts of the body, this is a terrible decision on the part of GW.

I just pictured the little girl from "The Exorcist" twisting her head in a full circle.

**PipeAlley**

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
StormK wrote:
Okay, there's a lot of heat in these arguments so I'l try to explain my position.
I try to play 40k without "cheese" units. You know, I want to beat my opponents by outsmarting them, or by using better tactics. A lot of units in GW games are unbalanced and GW loves to create units that break the rules so everyone will run out and buy those units. Like everyone did when Grey Knights came out. Then they nerfed Gk. I don't like to do things that way.
To give you an idea of what I mean;
I play vanilla marines without Vulkan Hestan, and I play Khorne space marines without Kharne. Or Skulltaker.
When 6th ed CSM codex came out my friend wiped the floor with everyone at our club by using nurgle marines and Epidemius. I beat him with vanilla marines and soon everyone was winning against him so he rethought his army and no longer plays Epidemius. This is an example of a cheese list losing to smart tactics. I don't feel an Epidemius list is overpowered because everything has to work together and it's possible to counter. It's a "newb killer" but not broken.
Now here we are with two Helldrakes in another friends army and no one can beat him. Since the FAQ gave the baleflamer the "turret" rule, helldrakes cant be beat. Interceptor is not reliable enough to stop them. You can not take cover from the Baleflamer even inside a building, and he does not have to worry about direction of travel or what is his arc of fire. No scoring units can get an armor save and again no cover saves. In addition most units can't even fire at the thing. You just have to tolerate it flying around killing entire units each turn. And he has two. He doesn't even have to attack with anything else. Our group's best player was tabled by these Helldrakes (it's not me). That hasn't happened ever. The Helldrakes were responsible for 90% of the casualties! That is Cheezits inside a quesadilla-wrapped cheeseburger.

To those who say "it's not broke" I say "show me". Give me a vanilla counter or CSM counter that does not require me running out to buy my own Helldrakes.

What is this really lame trend, where 40K has all these forum hipsters that go against the grind and don't go with the "norm" and play bad because its against the grain! Dude, you got owned because you didnt counter an easy to kill unit with some AA or "cheesy" units? Then you give some long drawn out example of how you're sweet and your losing is 100% because he isn't a cool hipster and uses cheesy units. Then you dare the internet to disprove you...

Okay, here's proof, Chaos isn't utterly dominating every meta right now uncontested with Helldrakes. The End. L2P

If Hipsters invade 40K I quit forever.