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When someone is playing cheesey lists you avoid playing with that person.

ServantofChaos wrote:
When someone is playing cheesey lists you avoid playing with that person.

Why. You'll never get better by avoiding tough games.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

ServantofChaos wrote:
When someone is playing cheesey lists you avoid playing with that person.

Why. You'll never get better by avoiding tough games.

^This. Plus 99% of the time the person using said cheesy internet list has no idea how to use it properly. Owning a sports car doesn't make you a pro racing driver.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Che-Vito wrote:

CaptainGrey wrote:
Player skill can be defined as the player's talent at list-building

Erhmahgawd! It's not all about list building!!!!!

CaptainGrey wrote: I wasn't assessing the post. Just that particular portion.

See what I did there? Part of forum decorum is replying in context.

Someone's mad. Like I said, it's the internet. Take a deep breath, and don't take it so personally. I wasn't attacking your post, I was attacking a claim it made. Because even if you weren't using it that way, plenty of people do so. So I addressed the claim, using your post as the example.

Try not to get defensive on an internet forum. It's...uncouth.

OP, I feel your pain. IMHO, Heldrakes have changed the meta. Simply by existing you now have to consider what would happen if one of them hit your lines, let alone 2 or 3.

My Grey Knights list adapted by becoming all 2+ armor. It's not my favorite way to play them, but it works.

Alternatively, if you can't beat em, join em. I caved and brought CSM allied heldrakes with my Necrons to the last tournament. Took 1st place and $100.

Still haven't figured out what I'm going to do about them with my Ravenwing, but it's still a fairly new dex and I haven't worked out all the kinks yet.

Still don't get why there is all this fuss about Heldrakes...

Yes, they can have the best flamer in the game
Yes, they can have the best autocannon in the came
Yes, hey are turret weapon
BUT It's a flier, so it is incredibly unreliable in terms of movement.
Yes, it is a tough flier
Yes, it can vector strike
BUT it costs a lot of points, and for only having 1 gun and a total of 2 forms of attack... it really isn't that good.
It certainly isn't the best flier about. The Valkyrie and Vendetta are way better.



I'm not going to say it's the worst flier, it certainly isn't, but it certainly isn't anything to be calling CHEESE about.

Us chaos players get 1 really good unit and we are expected NOT to use is as every second person doesn't build their army to have some form of AA, and yet every other army can take what ever unit they like (except necrons) and (usually) not be called "CHEESE"

I swear, Chaos is the only non-high tier army to be called CHEESY and OP over one unit....

T

But now you are bringing up what's high tier. I don't know the exact point values, but I know that when I have taken on CSM, they have plenty of effective things other than heldrakes. The CSM seem pretty good to me, but maybe not compared to Necrons or IG.

The Vendetta is overall a better flier than the heldrake, but doesn't have the OMFGZ YOU JUST ROASTED MY MEQS!!! factor. Marine players are just used to getting saves and the heldrake goes against those expectations. The one game I won against a double heldrake list involved a lot of metal box huddling and my fragnought killing the autocannon havocs to make my metal boxes live much longer. I kind of held out until the storm raven could come frag the heldrakes. Which it did. My opponent made other mistakes, but it just show the heldrakes alone don't make the game easy mode. (Playing against my BA might, though)

No one went "OMFG you can roast my MEQ's" when the redeemer came out. No one was pissed enough to call cheese when the Baal predator armed with a redeemer came screeching up your flank.

CSM are for the most part overcosted. High tier armies are usually completely undercosted or have a great number of powerful units that are undercosted.

IG, 'Crons, SW, all high-tier codexes

Notice the costing and how many powerful units they have (are GK still considered High-tier? I can't remeber)

The Redeemer and Baal predators can be fragged pretty consistently by a few MM shots. Fewer shots than can reliably even hit the heldrake. It's just the fact that it's a flier and it has STR 6 AP 3 template.

The GK are still considered kinda crazy good, yes. You think CSM are really overcosted compared to their astartes counterparts? At least you can give your guys a damn knife.

It's not just me, many think the same way

1 of our only reasonably costed units is the Heldrake.

LValx wrote:
Show me a unit with similar raw killing potential that is both as durable, mobile and cheap as a Heldrake. Trick question. They don't exists.

One word: Vendettas. I take one with Guard Allies in my Double Dragon CSM list because I'm a bad, bad man.

People using Helldrakes are weaks.

 TheMind wrote:

LValx wrote:
Show me a unit with similar raw killing potential that is both as durable, mobile and cheap as a Heldrake. Trick question. They don't exists.

One word: Vendettas. I take one with Guard Allies in my Double Dragon CSM list because I'm a bad, bad man.

Vendettas arent nearly as killy, one vendetta doesn't even average a dead Rhino a turn. Not to mention, you have to look at this with your mind to the current "meta" of 6th. Vehicles have gotten much worse making hordes more viable. Heldrakes excel at killing foot lists, particularly MEQs (which happen to be the most popular and used army in the game). This isn't to say that vendettas arent themselves undercosted, however, 3 lascannons twin-linked aren't a huge threat to any horde-like army.

LValx wrote:

 TheMind wrote:

LValx wrote:
Show me a unit with similar raw killing potential that is both as durable, mobile and cheap as a Heldrake. Trick question. They don't exists.

One word: Vendettas. I take one with Guard Allies in my Double Dragon CSM list because I'm a bad, bad man.

Vendettas arent nearly as killy, one vendetta doesn't even average a dead Rhino a turn. Not to mention, you have to look at this with your mind to the current "meta" of 6th. Vehicles have gotten much worse making hordes more viable. Heldrakes excel at killing foot lists, particularly MEQs (which happen to be the most popular and used army in the game). This isn't to say that vendettas arent themselves undercosted, however, 3 lascannons twin-linked aren't a huge threat to any horde-like army.

Then how about the Vendetta's little sibling, the Valkyrie

Vendettas are great at coming in and nailing other flyers, which would then allow the Heldrakes to run amok. The key to taking out those 12/12/10 flyers is getting a bunch of S4 shots right behind their arse; easy to glance them to death with enough shots. I think the Storm Raven is the best (of course expensive in points)....12 all around, a crapload of weapons which can choose to Skyfire, and it can carry Troops and a Dreadnought. Lucky ducks!

I've had my Drake bolt pistoled to death by Raptors on Turn 2! But they can usually get a Vector Strike in with their 36" Zoom, which is much tougher sometimes with a FMC.

I think FMCs with guns are better anti-fliers than some flyers, and then they can Glide next turn to assault tanks or infantry. Those are also expensive, but a Tzeentch Daemons Prince with Bolt at BS5 can usually down something.

I also have been liking the Icarus Lascannon as opposed to the Quad Gun lately. I put a cheap basic Lord on there with Cultists, or a Lord Commissar with Veterans around him. That could easily Intercept and explode/wreck a Heldrake before the Baleflamer kicks in.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

LValx wrote:

 TheMind wrote:

LValx wrote:
Show me a unit with similar raw killing potential that is both as durable, mobile and cheap as a Heldrake. Trick question. They don't exists.

One word: Vendettas. I take one with Guard Allies in my Double Dragon CSM list because I'm a bad, bad man.

Vendettas arent nearly as killy, one vendetta doesn't even average a dead Rhino a turn. Not to mention, you have to look at this with your mind to the current "meta" of 6th. Vehicles have gotten much worse making hordes more viable. Heldrakes excel at killing foot lists, particularly MEQs (which happen to be the most popular and used army in the game). This isn't to say that vendettas arent themselves undercosted, however, 3 lascannons twin-linked aren't a huge threat to any horde-like army.

Then how about the Vendetta's little sibling, the Valkyrie

That's why I have the Heldrakes, and my flamer squad of CSMs. In addition I could just pull out my Guard blob squad, and put in some vets with flamers instead. But I like the blobsquad sitting on my home objective. So 20 las guns says come at me bro.

Edit: Forgot to mention. Vendetta's are killy enough for their points cost. Let's put it this way, a Vendetta on the board kills pretty much every other flyer, save another vendetta. For 130pnts. At 140pnts I can have Heavy Bolters on it to make it even more killy. And it kills multiple things too. While it might not kill a blob of guard or marines. It'll drop a 3 man squad of terminators on average. Hell, it'll kill Typhus, and severely wound Abaddon. It'll gun down tanks like nobodies business and mess up flyers real bad. Ergo, vendetta is just as comparatively killy as a Heldrake, if not more so, just against different units.

Does the best way to counter the helldrake is to have a lot of small units force the Helldrake to waste his time trying to kill those unites?

The best way to counter it is to shoot it down with a flyer or skyfire.

A Valkyrie w/ Multi-laser, MPs and HBs and a PCS squad with meltas or demo meltabombs is quite good. The biggest problem with flyers as transports is grave chute insertion variables as you do not want to hover. But both Valkyries and Vendettas can take down a heldrake.

Stormravens can do it too, and stormtalon, sorta.

I think more people should bitch about Storm Ravens.
Twin-linked lascannons, twin-linked multi-meltas, 4 missiles at S8 AP1 (not crappy ordnance like IG), av12 all around, and immune to the melta special rule. Just when you think it's all tits, add in machine spirit, and the ability to drop a dreadnought an a good sized infantry squad.

If it gets to shoot first, it will kill your flyer. If you don't have the firepower to stop it, you're going to have a lot of hurt dropped on you.

-Matt

The stormraven is a rip off compared to the Vendetta. Plus, the IG can actually entertain using the transport feature.

Martel732 wrote:
The stormraven is a rip off compared to the Vendetta. Plus, the IG can actually entertain using the transport feature.

Not even slightly true.

The Stormraven is an assault vehicle. It has better weapons. It is immune to melta. It carries better guys, and a Dreadnought.

Let's agree that Storm Ravens, Vendettas and Valkyries are ALL as good or better than Heldrakes in most games - there are criteria that effect this . People do whine about them too even though they also have their weaknesses.

The trick is to get your troops into assault as fast as possible. You cannot touch troops with heldarkes if they are assaulting. So heldrakes really have a small window of opportunity to be most effective.

Vendettas - if I'm troop heavy I'm not concerned. Storm Ravens and Valkyries are actually worse for my lists in many cases. But I can at least get cover from these guys. Not so with 'drakes.

So design efficient lists that have solutions.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The stormraven is a rip off compared to the Vendetta. Plus, the IG can actually entertain using the transport feature.

Not even slightly true.

The Stormraven is an assault vehicle. It has better weapons. It is immune to melta. It carries better guys, and a Dreadnought.

It's actually completely true. It's an assault vehicle in an army that can't afford to reserve troops It's not immune to melta; melta still gets it's AP 1 bonus. I don't like the stormraven and I would gladly swap with the IG.

Even without using its transport ability, the Storm Raven is amazing as a flier because of machine spirit and its heavy weapon loadout. 1 twin linked melti media, 1 twin linked lascannon and 2 str 8 AP 1 missiles per turn with the option of being fired at two targets each turn means that within the second round of the Storm Raven hitting the table, you could have 4 armored targets in flames. That is no joke and almost always gaurantees that the Storm Raven will make its points back.

And AV 12 all around is not so easy to shoot down. Its one of the most resilient fliers around.

A weapon destroyed result also hurts it less. Good chance it will probably take out one missile. No biggy. For a Helldrake, weapon destroyed means no more bale flamer, and a Helldrake without the bale flamer is kinda meh.

My friend uses his Storm Raven purely as a shooting platform only. Though it still has the option to embark troops and transport them to capture objectives late game. So, even if it starts off empty, that transport capability is never wasted. Storm Raven is one of the best fliers in the game. Bring two and you will probably negate most armored armies unless they also have anti air fliers, or enough Hydra flak batteries. Even against non-armoured they are alright, because there will always be high value charecters, monstrous creatures and TEQs to target. So, unless opponent's army is pure horde, a Storm Raven is almost always worth it.

And Storm Ravens eat Helldrakes for breakfast.

Until they don't show up. Dual stormravens is banking a lot on reserves. I wish I could just pay for a true interceptor and skip all the fancy useless add-ons. Or just have vendettas. I use the assault cannon, but I'm considering the lascannon for the reasons above. Regardless, it will at least smoke a heldrake. If it shows up.

Shrugs. a CSM player who brings two helldrakes is also risking both not showing up.

Martel732 wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The stormraven is a rip off compared to the Vendetta. Plus, the IG can actually entertain using the transport feature.

Not even slightly true.

The Stormraven is an assault vehicle. It has better weapons. It is immune to melta. It carries better guys, and a Dreadnought.

It's actually completely true. It's an assault vehicle in an army that can't afford to reserve troops It's not immune to melta; melta still gets it's AP 1 bonus. I don't like the stormraven and I would gladly swap with the IG.

If you can't afford to reserve troops in BA/GK, that's an issue of your list's composition, not the SR. And Immune to melta means immune to the melta-rule.

Not immune to meltaguns...Nothing is immune to meltaguns except for Spartan tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Until they don't show up. Dual stormravens is banking a lot on reserves. I wish I could just pay for a true interceptor and skip all the fancy useless add-ons. Or just have vendettas. I use the assault cannon, but I'm considering the lascannon for the reasons above. Regardless, it will at least smoke a heldrake. If it shows up.

The argument "Well what if your reserves don't show up!" isn't even worth mentioning. That's the inherent risk of reserves, and can easily be countered with Comms-link, if you're "banking a lot on reserves".