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I believe the Avatar is immune to meltaguns.

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Not immune to meltaguns...Nothing is immune to meltaguns except for Spartan tanks.

Yeah the avatar is immune to meltaguns. So you are not right this time, but relax, it's the internet.

I don't know about GK, but BA can not afford to have anything in reserves due to the nerfing they took in 6th. If you think otherwise, feel free to borrow my army and try. Anything beyond which is mandatory in reserves that is. Putting precious BA units in it hurts your table presence far too much.

The statement about reserves is demonstrably untrue. I have both lost due to poor reserve rolls and beaten many people because they chose foolish reserve-based deployments that didn't actually make their army more effective, just piecemealed it for me.

Two storm ravens and an aegis line with commlink are a huge investment for shooting attacks starting turn 2. The storm ravens are pretty heavily armed, but their damage output is not so amazing as to justify this configuration, I think.

We're off topic here, so let's agree to disagree. I think the Stormraven is junk compared to IG fliers. I think the usage rates and popularity of the Vendetta bear this out.

Mushkilla wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Not immune to meltaguns...Nothing is immune to meltaguns except for Spartan tanks.

Yeah the avatar is immune to meltaguns. So you are not right this time, but relax, it's the internet.

Zing.

Martel732 wrote:
Two storm ravens and an aegis line with commlink are a huge investment for shooting attacks starting turn 2.

Of course two SR's are too much. That's the same statement as saying two Land Raiders are too much.

I think the Stormraven is junk compared to IG fliers. I think the usage rates and popularity of the Vendetta bear this out.

You haven't really backed this up, though. Just said "Too pricy, don't like it, I don't know how to write a list for it."

The Vendetta fits more lists. That's why it gets more use.

Not to mention, plenty of awful units are popular and frequently used; not great logic for demonstrating unit superiority.

Perhaps where I play just has a lot of competitive players, then. I don't see too many awful units used over and over.

I've tried a few different cargo loadouts for the stormraven, but those lists just end up playing poorly. It's hard to explain with mathammer. It's just that missing ~400 pts or so off the board for a turn or two was making too much of a dent in the damage I could cause on turn 1.

The IG can invest so much in such a flier strike for similar kinds of tactics. Well, they would shoot rather than assault, but you get the idea. Maybe the stormraven works for the GK, because in my experience it's just a point hog for the BA that I need to shoot down other fliers. The BA didn't need another point hog.

Martel732 wrote:
Perhaps where I play just has a lot of competitive players, then. I don't see too many awful units used over and over.

I've tried a few different cargo loadouts for the stormraven, but those lists just end up playing poorly. It's hard to explain with mathammer. It's just that missing ~400 pts or so off the board for a turn or two was making too much of a dent in the damage I could cause on turn 1.

The IG can invest so much in such a flier strike for similar kinds of tactics. Well, they would shoot rather than assault, but you get the idea. Maybe the stormraven works for the GK, because in my experience it's just a point hog for the BA that I need to shoot down other fliers. The BA didn't need another point hog.

As I said far earlier, and again above; I think it's less about the SR, and more about your list's comp. Assuming you play assaulty BA, you don't really need the Stormraven to deliver assault troops. You have plenty of that already. The SR works fantastic with razorspam BA, both soaking a lot of Anti-transport fire, as well as dumping tankslayers backfield while the Razbacks push up front.

I have fast transports and jump packs galore in the BA list. Why do I need a 200 pt flier to carry tankslayers to the opposing backfield again? Tankslayers that can't assault til turn 4 if I roll a 1 or 2 on turn 2? Many of my games are wrapped up by end of turn 3. You can see why I'm hesitant to reserve anything. I guess I play a lot of WAAC players, but still.

I play a lot of razorbacks and I feel that my lists would work much better if I didn't need anti-flier support. But I do. So now I have piecemeal my forces. It looks especially silly vs people with no fliers to shoot.

Martel732 wrote:
It looks especially silly vs people with no fliers to shoot.

But I think that's why the SR is actually decent. It can viably target stuff in just about any army-comp. Give it assault cannons, multimelta, and Hurricane bolters, and it threatens pretty much everything on the field. And can get there right quick.

More than can be said for the Vendetta. If its not Sv2+ or a Tank, the shots are wasted.

Perhaps this is the vacuum vs reality effect. On paper, the Stormraven does all the things you state. It's just a poor fit for a list that already has problems with point hog units. It's the reverse of the rhino, right? The rhino is cheap and hauls expensive troops, somewhat mitigating the point hog effect of the trooos. The Stormraven is expensive and hauls expensive stuff. This is the recipe for disaster is the massed fire, horde of troops reality of 6th edition.

Helldrakes are alright, though quite OP in the later stage of the game if its still around.

I think taking 1 could be considered auto-take but at 2 or 3 your having a lot of points in reserve that specialized in taking out MEQ (Your taking the Bale Flamer right? I mean the Auto cannon is good but not great)

I can see why Marine players are upset, they are too used to getting saves. Ap3 is in short supply and since most people play SM they are accustom to being able to tank shots and have a 2/3 of surviving. Now this Flying dragon comes along and start burning you up all across the table and not even cover can save you. If you play Raven wing, god help you against 3 HellDrakes. lol

It should be apparent that Av 12 flyers are tough not only to hit but to pen to. Added to that it has a ++5.
You will want to be going second against a 3 Helldrake list and maybe even castle up, you want to limit the the effective range of the Drakes first volley and vector strike.
Anything Twin linked is going to be a huge boost to your AA, you can glance it to death though sheer weight of dice but don't go over the top and use all your turns firepower in bringing it down.
While it has a 360 torrent temple the rule still apply that it can't wound units at are out of the LOS, so use the terrain to your advantaged.

Note that the bale flamer penetrates all aspect warrior armor and overkills most Eldar characters. It's not just rough on meqs.

Martel732 wrote:
Note that the bale flamer penetrates all aspect warrior armor and overkills most Eldar characters. It's not just rough on meqs.

and yet eldar dont complain, they are use to this.

I don't know many Eldar players used to their striking scorpions and warp spiders not getting saves. I think they don't complain because they have much bigger problems. Like a codex full of peak units that are great and valley units that are ass terrible.

 Exergy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Note that the bale flamer penetrates all aspect warrior armor and overkills most Eldar characters. It's not just rough on meqs.

and yet eldar dont complain, they are use to this.

When you're used to the gutter you don't cry out anymore because everyone already has ignored the cries of agony. The new fallen princes joining the eldar just don't understand thier fate yet. haha

The Eldar still have some vicious stuff. It's just that their good lists become repetitive and boring. They have too much unfieldable junk in their codex.

Not to mention their Dark Kin still kick ass and take names. Helldrake or no.

Mywik wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:

omerakk wrote:
I no longer understand the point of this thread; page 3 was pretty much the end lol

Loyalist Marine players are whiners.

~duck~

True. So are Chaos Marine players, Eldar players, Chaos Daemons players, Tyranid players and pretty much anyone else. The only players I usually don't see whining about stuff is the Ork players, which is pretty understandable considering how solid their Codex is, even two editions after it was released.

Ork players dont have to whine because orks always win.

As an only Ork player, I must concur.

I don't think the Heldrake is that OP, it just owns all the foot MEQ lists that have been popping up lately. The people that play those armies are angry... there's a lot of people that play those lists.

The wheel keeps turning guys, adapt to your local meta.

Any army that is battle bros with IG simply cannot complain. Especially if they have access to Divination.

 Compel wrote:
I know I'm more impressed by people who win big tournaments with tau or eldar or Black Templars than I am by someone who uses net-list-of-the-month.

Thank you. My point exactly.

I'm not insulting anyone BTW, I have said "in my experience"...

I think it's become clear that Helldrakes do unbalance the game because they are cheaper than other equivalently potent units, they have special rules and abilities that other fliers do not, they get hit only on sixes, require a str 7 or better weapon to penetrate, and can use "feel no pain" to negate any hits that finally penetrate. Scoring troops can not hide or maneuver to avoid them without taking points away from scoring troops and putting those points into a vehicle that is underwhelming (5th ed LR awesome, 6th ed LRs not so much).

If the Helldrakes did not have so many things in their favor it would not be overpowered. If the armor was lowered a little, or take away "turret", or disallow FNP, or any number of things. Giving so many advantages to one unit that costs so little is ridiculous.

The title of this thread is "cheeseless armies die to Helldrakes". Not "what cheese is best to overcome CSM cheese". Thanks to all those who have given useful suggestions like using the board edge to your advantage. I appreciate real suggestions.

To those who have given me the suggestion of "deal with it or go home", you needn't even bother posting on my thread as you obviously misunderstood the purpose of this thread and the question I was asking.

To be clear, I am looking for a way to counter Helldrakes with a vanilla SM codex choice. Has anyone had success with a devastator combination? What about Whirlwinds or hyperios defense platforms? How do flak missiles perform for their cost?
Obviously taking IG allies is the easiest alternative and one I am considering. I am also playing CSM against him this week to see how my havocs fare.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: sorry, FNP should mean 5+ invul save....

 StormK wrote:
I think it's become clear that Helldrakes do unbalance the game because they are cheaper than other equivalently potent units, they have special rules and abilities that other fliers do not, they get hit only on sixes, require a str 7 or better weapon to penetrate, and can use "feel no pain" to negate any hits that finally penetrate. Scoring troops can not hide or maneuver to avoid them without taking points away from scoring troops and putting those points into a vehicle that is underwhelming (5th ed LR awesome, 6th ed LRs not so much).

I have to say that I don't agree with you about the LRs being worse in 6th. Sure, there's Hull Points, but S8 can no longer stunlock or immobilize you and with everyone swapping Meltaguns to Plasmas and Autocannons to glance vehicles to death AV14 is more effective than before. The LR also gained 6" of movement every turn in Turbo Boost.

 Red Viper wrote:
I don't think the Heldrake is that OP, it just owns all the foot MEQ lists that have been popping up lately. The people that play those armies are angry... there's a lot of people that play those lists.

The wheel keeps turning guys, adapt to your local meta.

Any army that is battle bros with IG simply cannot complain. Especially if they have access to divinity.

Only the Eldar (Avatar of Khaine) and Necrons (C'Tan Shard) have access to divinity. Everyone else just has Divination.

Helios weaponplatforms could work against the drakes, twinlinked str 8 ap3, interceptor skyfire goodiness? yes please

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Only the Eldar (Avatar of Khaine) and Necrons (C'Tan Shard) have access to divinity. Everyone else just has Divination.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm pretty sure everyone else knew what I meant, but I'll edit it so you aren't confused.

Also if your opponent is running baleflamer drakes then their AA is pretty low, pretty much any flyer can pop a heldrake out of the sky in one round of shooting.....their a strong unit but there are ways and means around them. Its like rock, paper scissors. Against infantry marines it slaughters them against terminators or hordes its not nearly as effective, being particularly strong against certain builds doesn't make a unit broken.

But as the Bible teaches: Thou shalt not bring forth logic onto the internet

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
Pretty much any flyer can pop a heldrake out of the sky in one round of shooting.....

I suggest taking a look at the math behind that. You will find that AV 12 vehicles with 5++ invuln saves are actually quite durable.

What can a nightscythe do against them? If they get 6 hits, their going to do one glancing and one penetrating hit, and there is a 55% one of those will be ignored. This means 3 nightscythes will be required to shoot down one drake (or one drake over 3 rounds).

Even a vendetta with its triple TL LCs is not a sure thing. As each LC only has a 33.33% to knock off a hull point! (3/4 * 2/3 * 2/3 =12/36) Over two rounds, you can expect a vendetta to shoot down a drake, but its not a one round wonder.

That's part of what makes the drakes so good - their very durable. They are probably the most durable flyer in the game today. Your statement of 'Pretty much any flyer can pop a heldrake out of the sky in one round of shooting' is incorrect.

 StormK wrote:
I think it's become clear that Helldrakes do unbalance the game because they are cheaper than other equivalently potent units, they have special rules and abilities that other fliers do not, they get hit only on sixes, require a str 7 or better weapon to penetrate, and can use "feel no pain" to negate any hits that finally penetrate.

What, what? No. That's utterly false.

To be clear, I am looking for a way to counter Helldrakes with a vanilla SM codex choice. Has anyone had success with a devastator combination? What about Whirlwinds or hyperios defense platforms? How do flak missiles perform for their cost?

Do you read your codex at all? Rifleman Dreads, Razorbacks, and Predators are good counters against the illusive, metallic chicken.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

Not to mention, plenty of awful units are popular and frequently used; not great logic for demonstrating unit superiority.

QFT.

I am guilty of this quite often. Now, mind you I don't play the same list in every game and I try to tailor my army to best face my opponent... but sometimes I use put a unit (or two or three) in my army just because, and I know this is strange... I like it.

With the way GW has retconned all the grimdark out of their setting, 40k is rapidly just turning into every other wargame... so when a unit or model strikes your fancy, jump on it.

I'd like to cite the new bit of fluff from the DA codex about how their assault marines are known to "sing" their hymnals and prayers in a sort of Gregorian chant as they chop and hack things to bits. There was a bit in there as well about how it's occasionally drown out by the screaming of their victims. That sold me... they are actual fething Space Marines... warrior monks and all. I was sold. They are in my army now.

Could I be playing more "cheese" throwing in assloads of AA Flakk missiles and spamming Ravenwing Deathwing... of course. But I that's not required.

 KplKeegan wrote:

 StormK wrote:
I think it's become clear that Helldrakes do unbalance the game because they are cheaper than other equivalently potent units, they have special rules and abilities that other fliers do not, they get hit only on sixes, require a str 7 or better weapon to penetrate, and can use "feel no pain" to negate any hits that finally penetrate.

What, what? No. That's utterly false.

No, it's not. The only entirely incorrect part is the cost. They have Vector Strike, which no other flying vehicle has. They only get hit on sixes, because they're fliers. It's AV12 so you do need a weapon with S7+ to penetrate. It has a 5++, which, while technically not FnP, is functionally equivalent in this example.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 KplKeegan wrote:

 StormK wrote:
I think it's become clear that Helldrakes do unbalance the game because they are cheaper than other equivalently potent units, they have special rules and abilities that other fliers do not, they get hit only on sixes, require a str 7 or better weapon to penetrate, and can use "feel no pain" to negate any hits that finally penetrate.

What, what? No. That's utterly false.

No, it's not. The only entirely incorrect part is the cost. They have Vector Strike, which no other flying vehicle has. They only get hit on sixes, because they're fliers. It's AV12 so you do need a weapon with S7+ to penetrate. It has a 5++, which, while technically not FnP, is functionally equivalent in this example.

they can vector strike at str7, like a MC
so they are only hit on 6s, unless you have skyfire, like every other flyer in the game
they have AV12, like the Stormravens, valkries, and vendettas.
they have a 5++, daemonforge and IWND, which no other flyer has but 3 other vehicles have (maulerfiend, defiler, and forgefiend) All of those are OP because of their 5++ right? Also DE can get 5++ on their vehicles for 10 points. Clearly it is super powerful.
If all those traits are that good, why arent heldrakes with Hades autocannons OP?

they can have a turret mounted torrent flamer, yeah its powerful, but it is hardly game breaking. There are a ton of vehicles with flamers, and a handful of torrent ones.